Ledge Options - Frame Data

[Yikarur]

This is very important and it's really a lot.
Ledge Attack
Ledge Jump
Ledge Get-Up
>100% and <100%

in PSA I can't find the duration of few ledge options.

Example:
[collapse=Lucarios LedgeAttack Slow]
Subaction Main0xDC
@15310

-----------|START|--------------------------
Body Collision - Collision State=0x2,
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=34,00x,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0xF0000, Damage=0xA, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0x6E0064, Knockback Growth=0x10000, Size=4,30x, Z Offset=0,00x, Y Offset=14,00x, X Offset=0,00x, Tripping Rate=0,00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1,00x, SDI Multiplier=1,00x, Hitbox Flags=0x21832C55,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0xF0001, Damage=0xA, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0x6E0064, Knockback Growth=0x10000, Size=4,30x, Z Offset=0,00x, Y Offset=9,00x, X Offset=0,00x, Tripping Rate=0,00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1,00x, SDI Multiplier=1,00x, Hitbox Flags=0x21832C55,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0xF0002, Damage=0xA, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0x6E0064, Knockback Growth=0x10000, Size=4,30x, Z Offset=0,00x, Y Offset=4,00x, X Offset=0,00x, Tripping Rate=0,00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1,00x, SDI Multiplier=1,00x, Hitbox Flags=0x21832C55,
Offensive Collision - Bone/ID=0xF0003, Damage=0xA, Trajectory=0x169, Base Knockback=0x6E0064, Knockback Growth=0x10000, Size=4,30x, Z Offset=0,00x, Y Offset=0,00x, X Offset=0,00x, Tripping Rate=0,00x, Hitlag Multiplier=1,00x, SDI Multiplier=1,00x, Hitbox Flags=0x21832C55,
Synchronous Timer - Frames=4,00x,
Terminate Collisions
Body Collision - Collision State=0x0,
----------------------------|END|-----------
[/collapse]

It ends at "Body collision = tangible"
so where to I find the missing data? :/

I want to list all ledge options of every character with Hitbox, End Frame (or FAF) and invincibility.

I usually do it with Smartbombs in frame advance lol

who helps me and who wants to do which character? (I've already done Yoshi)

 

[KayLo!]

Pikachu:

1.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]

Spoiler

Ledge Grab
Invincibility: 1-34 (invincibility can carry over into ledge drop actions)
FAF: 12 (for ledge attack, roll, or jump) / 14 (for ledge drop or climb)
Note: Pikachu must wait at least 30 frames after releasing the ledge before he can re-grab it.

Ledge Attack <100%
Hitbox Active: 22-24
FAF: 54
Invincibility: 1-20
Base Damage: 8
Hitlag:
Shield Hitlag:
Shield Stun:
Advantage on Block:

Ledge Attack >100%
Hitbox Active: 55-59
FAF: 70
Invincibility: 1-59
Base Damage: 10
Hitlag:
Shield Hitlag:
Shield Stun:
Advantage on Block:

Ledge Climb <100%
Invincibility: 1-30
FAF: 33

Ledge Climb >100%
Invincibility: 1-56
FAF: 60

Ledge Roll <100%
Invincibility: 1-24
FAF: 50

Ledge Roll >100%
Invincibility: 1-60
FAF: 80

Ledge Jump <100%
Invincibility: 1-15
FAF: 16

Ledge Jump >100%
Invincibility: 1-26
FAF: 27​

Zelda:

1.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]

Spoiler

Ledge Grab
Invincibility: 1-46 (invincibility can carry over into ledge drop actions)
FAF: 24 (for ledge attack, roll, or jump) / 26 (for ledge drop or climb)
Note: Zelda must wait at least 30 frames after releasing the ledge before she can re-grab it.

Ledge Attack <100%
Hitbox Active: 27-32
FAF: 54
Invincibility: 1-25
Base Damage: 6
Hitlag:
Shield Hitlag:
Shield Stun:
Advantage on Block:

Ledge Attack >100%
Hitbox Active: 34-37
FAF: 70
Invincibility: 1-37
Base Damage: 8/8/10/10 (less damage closer to Zelda)
Hitlag:
Shield Hitlag:
Shield Stun:
Advantage on Block:

Ledge Climb <100%
Invincibility: 1-30
FAF: 34

Ledge Climb >100%
Invincibility: 1-55
FAF: 60

Ledge Roll <100%
Invincibility: 1-29
FAF: 51

Ledge Roll >100%
Invincibility: 1-52
FAF: 80

Ledge Jump <100%
Invincibility: 1-10
FAF: 11

Ledge Jump >100%
Invincibility: 1-20
FAF: 21​

 

[Yikarur]

one important thing is missing in your data.
How long is the ledge blocked while your character is doing his option?
I don't think you can find this data in PSA, I did it with frame advance. D:

 

[Pikabunz]

If you grab the ledge then immediately ledge jump (<100) then airdodge on FAF, are you invincible the entire time?

 

[KayLo!]

one important thing is missing in your data.
How long is the ledge blocked while your character is doing his option?
I don't think you can find this data in PSA, I did it with frame advance. D:

I didn't look for all that lol. I'll test it later if I remember.

@Prime: I guess so, but I dunno if you'd clear the ledge with the airdodge. The ledge jump FAF happens when Pika's around ledge height, so he might not land on stage. I can't really visualize it. ><

 

[Yikarur]

If you grab the ledge then immediately ledge jump (<100) then airdodge on FAF, are you invincible the entire time?

Yep

10chaaaars

 

[Pikabunz]

kk, cool.

I'll do the ledge block frames for Pika, btw.

 

[Luxor]

I think the overall duration frames for ledge actions are in BrawlBox. The invincible frames are in PSA/OSA as Yika posted.

 

[KayLo!]

I just did FAF stuff in frame advance. Takes two seconds.

 

[Luxor]

.2 in Brawlbox, if I remember correctly and it's actually there.

 

[Yikarur]

I have the duration for every ledgeattack.
Ledgeattack fast: Every character has 55 duration ledgeattack with the following exceptions: Zelda (53) Pikachu (53) DK (54) Fox (54) Marth (54) Sheik (54) MK (54) Falco (54) Peach (54) Ganondorf (54) ICs (54) Wolf (54) Bowser (54) CF (54) Pit (56)

I double checked Pika and Zelda because it of the strange concidence that Kaylo does them lol

LedgeAttackSlow: Every character has 69 duration ledgeattack with the following exceptions:
Samus (68) Ivysaur (59) Ganondorf (68) CF (68)

triple checked Ivysaur, could be a coding error or a typing mistake by the developer lol the animation of most ledge attacks are finished at arround 59 but you can't move until 69, this is no the case with Ivysaur

FAF is duration +1 but I still prefer the duration so I'm sorry <3
everything done in frame advance and double checked.

now I have all duration so I can use PSA =D

 

[KayLo!]

I double checked Pika and Zelda because it of the strange concidence that Kaylo does them lol

Uhh, what's that supposed to mean?

 

[Pikabunz]

That Pika and Zelda's data (the only 2 you did) were different from the rest of the cast, so he wanted to double check if they were right.

 

[Yikarur]

I have the half finished of LedgeAttacks Slow and Quick.
Who wants to do the other ledge options? o:

 

[A2ZOMG]

One thing that is underexploited in competitive play is the fact that ledge attacks are all like -30 on shield or something.

I mean I've literally Up-smashed out of shield with LUCAS against ledge attacks (Lucas's Up-smash is frame 28).

 

[Yikarur]

it is very character depended, Wolf and Sheiks ledge attack have only about 10 frames cooldown while others have twice or trice the cooldown of that lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's only their slow ledge attacks though. It's the fast ledge attacks that actually get used a lot, and that a lot of players consistently fail to punish.

 

[Yikarur]

SlowLedgeAttacks are better than quickledgeattacks in few points.
SlowLedgeAttack ALL have invincibility during the hitbox.
QuickLedgeAttack all have NO invincibility during hitbox.
[collapse=QuickLedgeAttacks]

Character | Invincibility | Hitbox / Ending Frame

Mario | 1-20 | 24-26 / 55
DK | 1-7 | 9-15 / 54
Link | 1-25 | 27-29 / 55
Samus | 1-23 | 25-28 / 55
ZSS | 1-17 | 19-21 / 55
Kirby | 1-18 | 20-23 / 55
Fox | 1-23 | 25-31 / 54
Marth | 1-24 | 24-27 / 54
Mr. GaW | 1-15 | 24-28 / 55
Luigi | 1-20 | 24-26 / 55
Diddy Kong | 1-26 | 28-30 / 55
Sheik | 1-23 | 25-34 / 54
Pit | 1-23 | 24-28 / 56
Meta Knight | 1-23 | 25-28 / 54
Falco | 1-23 |25-31 / 54
Squirtle | 1-26 |28-30 / 55
Ivysaur | 1-22 | 24-26 / 55
Charizard | 1-23 | 25-26 / 55
Ike | 1-21 | 23-25 / 55
Snake | 1-21 | 25-27 / 55
Peach | 1-8 | 10-16 / 54
Ganondorf | 1-22 | 24-28 / 54
Ice Climbers | 1-25 | 27-30 / 54
King Dedede | 1-22 | 24-26 / 55
Wolf | 1-23 | 25-31 / 54
Lucario | 1-15 | 17-19 / 55
Ness | 1-22 | 24-26 / 55
Sonic | 1-22 | 24-32 / 55
Bowser | 1-4 | 8-17 / 54
Wario | 1-29 |31-33 / 55
Toon Link | 1-25 | 27-39 / 55
R.O.B. | 1-23 | 25-27 / 55
Olimar | 1-15 | 17-21, 22-23 / 55
Captain Falcon | 1-22 |23-27 / 54
Jigglypuff | 1-19 | 21-24 / 55 (?)
Lucas | 1-23 | 24-26 / 55
Zelda | 1-25 | 27-32 / 53
Yoshi | 1-18 | 20-24 / 55
Pikachu | 1-20 | 22-24 / 53
[/collapse]

QuickLedgeAttack should be indeed be punished more.
I need more frame options and more comparisons.
I need normal ledge get-up invincibility / duration.
heeelp meee :x

 

[Pikabunz]

Ledge Block Frames

[collapse="Pikachu"]Climb <100% - 22F
Climb >100% - 49F

Jump <100% - 16F
Jump >100% - 27F

Roll <100% - 18F
Roll >100% - 40F

Attack <100% - 21F
Attack >100% - 45F
[/collapse]

I'll do more later.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm still waiting for support :/ if I don't get any support at all I'm going to do everything by myself. <_<

 

[Pikabunz]

Dunno if you want this, I mostly did it for myself.

[collapse="Ledge Attack Shield Frame Advantage]<100% / >100%

Mario - 22 / 20
DK - 36 / 22
Link - 19 / 9
Samus - 21 / 21
ZSS - 27 / 7
Kirby - 26 / 17
Fox - 20 / 4
Pikachu - 22 / 5
Marth - 20 /16
G&W - 22 / 5
Luigi - 22 / 20
Diddy - 18 / 10
Zelda - 17 / 26
Sheik - 20 / 3
Pit - 21 / 22
Metaknight - 21 / 21
Falco - 20 / 4
Ivysaur - 22 / 21
Squirtle - 18 / 20
Charizard - 21 / 30
Ike - 23 / 19
Snake - 21 / 19
Peach - 35 / 16
Yoshi - 26 / 24
Ganondorf - 21 / 22
Ice Climbers - 13 (18) / 16 (20)
Popo - 18 / 21
King Dedede - 22 / 13
Wolf - 20 / 4
Lucario - 30 (0%) / 23 (105%)
Ness - 22 / 21
Sonic - 20 /10
Bowser - 37 / 14
Wario - 15 / 7
Toon Link - 19 / 9
ROB - 21 / 20
Olimar - 29 / 21
Captian Falcon - 21 / 20
Jigglypuff - 25 / 17
Lucas - 22 / 20
[/collapse]

 

[A2ZOMG]

^Epic post. Thanks for the information.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the quick ledge attack's frame data is a testament as to why pro players will often bait it from more predictable players then do an easy SH aerial while they're still in the attack animation.

I figured Sheik's slow ledge attack was fast in cooldown, but I never knew it was that fast

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda never gets nice things. ;__;

At least Pika's slow one is pretty good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not always the frame advantage that makes a ledge attack good or bad, although it's an important factor.

The other two equally important factors in a ledge attack that determines how good it is are the hitbox and its animation.

Ganon's <100% ledge attack has bad frame data, but it's still a useful ledge attack due to its sheer range for example.

Snake's >100% ledge attack has average range, is slow, and is massively unsafe on block. It's still a decent ledge attack because the animation is very non-telegraphed (looks very similar to his ledgeroll and ledgestand iirc).

The worst ledge options in the game are the ones that belong to Bowser, DK, and ROB. Bowser and DK have good <100% ledge attacks and okay <100% ledgerolls, but EVERYTHING ELSE they have is ridiculously bad. And the problem with ROB's options on the ledge is all of them are telegraphed and distinguishable from each other, and his ledgerolls are extremely bad.

Generally speaking, the tactic I wish players would use more is shielding next to the edge. There's so many ledge games that get WRECKED by shield and the associated out of shield options as long as you know ledge option frame data and animations.

 

[phi1ny3]

That's true, even if ROB's getup attack is fairly good, he has horrible options everywhere else often making him very telegraphed in traditional ledge options (aka he'll be leaning on that thing more often than not).

Sheik I know for sure is horrible overall on the ledge, if you've ever seen a match with a good sheik against another good opponent, the game looks **** for sheik until she gets sent offstage or is on the ledge, she gets sent back to the same position over and over again which really cripples her.

And there's always ledge hop options to be considered.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And again, the thing about ROB is every one of his ledge options is distinguishable on reaction, and punishable out of shield.

My question is, who counts as a good Sheik? The character is extremely underplayed.

Sheik's problem offstage isn't her ledge game. It's her below average recovery. Her ledge game is pretty average overall, not outstanding, but good enough to get by with assuming you make it to the ledge in the first place.

Ledge hop options are generally ledgehop F-air and airdodge, which in most situations can usually be beaten by a well placed N-air out of shield.

 

[phi1ny3]

Mostly people outside of the US lol

There's a couple of matches with a German Sheik named Biggad in particular where he has the HARDEST time getting back onstage even once on the ledge against MK (it was okay in the recovering department considering it's a mediocre recovery pitted against one of the best edgeguarders, but he was having mega issues once safely on the ledge).

And yes, her recovery's sub-par, but it's also an issue of her ledge options imo. Her ledgehop fair's mediocre due purely to range, and her other options involving attacking have a similar issue. I've been enjoying working with ledgejump buffered needles which hits opponents who stay far, but that's also really readable. This issue is also magnified by the fact that her ledgejump takes forever to complete, and her rolls/attack aren't really outstanding.