Learning more Falco

[lonelytraveler8]

Heya. I've done my research and basically know my terms and what not and I've got falco down fairly well. What I don't have down is the more advanced techniques that require short hopping, fast falling, wavedashing, l-cancelling, etc. Actually, I can short hop pretty consistently.

What I was wondering is if anyone had any tips for the best way to go about these. Should I pratice my SH and FF by doing lots of SHL?

Do you l-cancel when you SHL?

If you FF during a SHL too quickly, will you hit the ground before the laser goes off or am I just too slow hitting B? I suppose I can answer my own question with that one since if I wait on the FF a fraction of a second later then it works out fine.

What are some good ways to approach with a Short hopped air attack?

Should I practice SHFFL'ing all at once or in steps like SHFF first?

And I have some questions about shine uses and techniques, since I don't use it much except during dthrows, but I still need to read up on that before I can really ask anything. Any other general tips is awesome, too...such as ledgeguarding. Seem to have trouble doing that with Falco. Thanks.

 

[MrBitter]

You do not have to L-cancel your SHL's.

SHL is the best technique for progressing your short hop and fast falling skills, in my opinion.

You'll want to work towards short hopping A attacks, but as far as getting your hands accustomed to the speed at which they need to move, SHL is great.

If you FF during a laser too quickly, it will not come out... Try hitting B faster, or fast falling later. As you progress, you'll notice that you can determine the height of your laser by timing your fast falls differently.

For practicing your SHL, start by short hopping and lasering. Don't fast fall at first. When I was learning, I found that going to training mode with Samus as the other opponent was the best way to gauge my lasering.

When you short hop, laser, if you press B fast enough, your laser will pass over Samus. If you do it too slowly, your laser will hit Samus.

Once you can consistently short hop and keep your lasers over Samus, you can start working in your fast falls. Using the same timing as before, fast falling should now come naturally.

For short hopped airs - nair, bair and dair are the best approaches. Dair is, of course, the ultimate Falco attack, but there are many, many uses for the others. You'll want to L-cancel all of these... It takes time to master L-cancelling, so just be patient, and practice often.

Hope this helps.

 

[SCOTU]

Yeah, once you get the hang of shffling, follow up your shffls w/ shines (to prevent sheildgrabbing). Also, practice your shffling and l-cancels against a cc-ing bowser w/ handicap 9 to your handicap 1 w/ damage ratio @ .5. For the SHL, sh, make sure you're not pressing a direction, press b, then down. If done from a run, or you press a direction after x but before b, you move. Shffled nairs & dairs are the best approach shffls, the shffled bair out of sheild is important too.
Note: only aerial attacks (nair, dair, uair, bair, fair) can be l-canceled. so the laser, phantasm, shine, and firebird don't gain anything from "l-canceling them".

Good Luck, and it's practice that makes strong tech skill, it's experience that makes you good.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Awesome explanations. My next question regarding shffling is more on its uses. I have a hard time closing in on characters like Marth and Roy because they'll often simply press A, B, ftilt or fsmash. All of which can be rather annoying. So do you approach characters in one way and then follow up with shffl'ed airs?

Also, thanks for the tip on the shine to prevent shield grabs. But how does it work? If they're in their shield, will it knock them back or something? I haven't gotten the chance to play since starting this thread and won't get to play much at all until Saturday night or Sunday, so would like to just collect as much info as possible until then.

And another thanks for the SHL practice mode with Samus tip.

 

[MrBitter]

Approaching characters like Marth will get easier and easier as your SHL gets better and better.

Ideally, you want to "attack behind your laser"...

By that, I mean you want to be moving inside of a Marth's range as your laser is hitting him. Your getting hit out of your approach because you're either too far behind your laser, or you're not approaching with a laser at all.

The perfect approach would be a SHL that has you landing close enough to perform a grab (or shine)... Practicing this is as simple as going into training mode on Final Destination and feeling out your range. Practice your approaching SHL, taking special care to land as close to your opponent as possible. (And try to stay as close to your laser as possible)

When approaching behind a laser, your opponent has two options. Shield, or eat the laser. If they shield, you can start adding pressure through whatever means your most comfortable with.

If they eat the laser, you can try to turn it into a combo... Shine is an obvious choice here, as is d-tilt, or a simple jab. The jab can actually lead into other fun stuff... Just play with it until you find something you like.

Just remember... The trick to approaching a character who outranges you is simple spacing. Don't blindly jump into a f-smash... Think about your approach, pressure with SHL, and jump on him when he leaves an opening.

 

[Driz]

Really work on getting your shorthop lasers down this should help with the SHFF part of the SHFFL, good ways to approach with a SHAir is do some SHL while moving closer then throw ina SHDair/Nair/Bair mix it up. And shines are key with falco! waveshining out of them or jump canceling out to set up a great combo is a good use or doing a jump shine instantjump to bair or uair can work as well. SHINE COMBOS FTW!

EDIT: Hope the little Advice I had to offer helps and 100th Post YEA!

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Ok, I got much better at my short hopped lasers today and can do them fairly consistently. I was able to do a bit of approaching and retreating, but it required to much concentration to use against someone fighting me, so I mostly stuck to stationary SHL today.

Got my friends together to play smash today. We all want to enter the Conneticon tournament and try and do well so we're planning on practicing together as much as we can. So we set up a little tournament and I came out number one undefeated (three stocked the one I was afraid of fighting...then we rematched and I lost 1-0 stock). The short hopping gave me a huge advantage since most of them don't use it or don't know how. My laser was extremely useful at some points. But what they absolutely hated the most was my shield grabbing and my short hop spikes off the edge of the stage during edge guarding.

btw, are there any official tournament rules? We set it at 3 stock, 3 minutes, no items with only a handful of basic levels under random.

 

[clowsui]

typically it's 4 stock 8 minutes no items...the stages you'll have to look for yerself

 

[Driz]

The levels are Final Des, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story and Dreamland and Pokemon Stadium I believe. Those are what I usually leave on random but when playing in a tournament there are other lvls that after you lose you can choose because after the first match you don't have to do random stages.

 

[DoctaMalik]

nice nice, now the next step with your SHL is to learn how to RSHL(do it while dashing backwards/retreating )

 

[Khaly]

For shizzle, theres a tourney at Connecticon? Whoa! My cousin and I were talking about going there, but totally wasn't expecting SSBM there! I plan to go as Itachi >_>

Anyways, if you didnt know already, try dashing into your SHLs, instead of hopping forward, if thats what you were trying to do. Dashing into your SHLs becomes automatic- at first it'll be a little slow, but when you can SHL moving forwards as fast as you can stationary, then GJ!

Tournament rules vary a lot, but its usually 4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Random stages that Driz mentioned, and there are counterpick stages depending on the tournament. Counterpick stages are semi-neutral stages, like Kongo or Pokefloats. No items, glitch usage, or excessive stalling. Wobbling is sometimes permitted, but usually not.

Have you seen some of the Forward / Bombsoldier Falco videos? If not, watch them!

I'm fortunate to have my friend Nus live near me, who is a pro Falco, ranked 4th player in CT xP

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Yeah, while trying to approach with SHL I found that dashing was awesome for landing myself right in front of someone as the laser hit them (awesome for sword users )

I can approach with the laser and shoot fairly quickly, but usually at somepoint will shine or dash(forgot the name of foward B) so I still need to practice it...also, I don't move very much with each jump unless I dash.

Thanks for the rules...they'll be helpful for my friends and I to practice with.

And yeah, I've watched some of Foward's and Bombsoldier's videos...I actually pick up things quicker by seeing them rather than reading about them.


Took a break from practicing stuff repetitively and just had fun...I'll practice some more tomorrow.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Alrighty, I have another question. Any tips for edgeguarding Luigis? Lost to a friend of mine who's not all that great at the game a couple times because I was consistently getting hit through my shield and I couldn't keep him off the edge when I knocked him off. His foward+B thing seems to have priority over everything and it's very hard to predict when someone will use it, especially if they come in from high in the air.

And while on the topic, is there anyone else who's difficult to edgeguard?

 

[siresword]

luigi should be easy to edgeguard because his b-up isnt too hot and the b side is easy to hit with a bair (right...?)

since everybody was talking about SHL's i wanted to ask about people like viperboy who seem to always be (or are always wavedashing..) wavedashing. is he wavedashing after he lands his SHL ? or wavelanding ?? can you waveland an shl ? (his combo movie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDYJzRABZFQ - @1:40-1:45 maybe)
sorry to hijack your thread, but i think it'll help with SHL techniques

 

[lonelytraveler8]

By all means, ask questions and get answers. It makes more sense to ask here than to start a new thread. I suppose with Luigi, I just shouldn't be so eager to hit him during his foward B. If it doesn't get him on the level, he's pretty much screwed because, as you said, his up-b is terrible for recovery. But if I try hitting him during his foward-b attack, it always seems to outprioritize whatever I attack with...uair, dair, bair. I suppose I should just learn to hit him just as it ends.

And I like your question, sire...makes me wonder if it'll help much with approaching and retreating SHL.

Edit: another quick question. Is it better to use the stick and A for SHFFLed airs or the c-stick? Or is it just a matter of preference?

 

[Abulize]

I use the c-stick. You have more control over your DI during an attack and you won't ever mess up an uair while using the c-stick.

 

[Oskurito]

By all means, ask questions and get answers. It makes more sense to ask here than to start a new thread. I suppose with Luigi, I just shouldn't be so eager to hit him during his foward B. If it doesn't get him on the level, he's pretty much screwed because, as you said, his up-b is terrible for recovery. But if I try hitting him during his foward-b attack, it always seems to outprioritize whatever I attack with...uair, dair, bair. I suppose I should just learn to hit him just as it ends.

And I like your question, sire...makes me wonder if it'll help much with approaching and retreating SHL.

Edit: another quick question. Is it better to use the stick and A for SHFFLed airs or the c-stick? Or is it just a matter of preference?

Personally I think the C-stick is better and not only because some things are easier it's because you can actually perform some attacks more faster than normal. It's just a matter of preference but try do a shuffled uair with control stick and then with the c-stick and you will see the diference.

Laser spam owns luigi so I suggest learning how to rshl (reverse shor hoped laser)

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I definitely use the c-stick for dairs and uairs to prevent fastfalling or jumping when I don't want to, but I never thought of it for DI reasons.

Alrighty, so I was practicing SHFFLing earlier and I find that I can't do the fast falling if I do my airs with the control stick anyhow, so I'll definitely be using the c-stick. And up until today, I haven't been able to think fast enough to follow up a SHFFLed air with anything else (like a shine), I just end up standing there for a moment thinking. I managed to do a few SHFFLed nairs/dairs in succesion, but I definitely have a lot of work to do on it. I'm also still having trouble with approaching SHL, but that's just a matter of practicing. For retreating, however, I can retreat, but then can't fast fall or I can fast fall but not retreat. Should I not be fastfalling when I'm trying to move during SHLs?

Edit: I did spam lasers on luigi, but we were in the old Yoshi's Story and sometimes the lasers would go right over him because of the slant of the level...not to mention it was small enough that retreating would have been difficult anyways (at least I think it would be)

 

[Abulize]

I forgot to mention.. the only time I use A for my aerials is when I do a ledgehop bair. You might be ready for that. It's not very hard but it's also not very important. Keep it up and I suggest watching videos. Just go to the top of Falco thread and watch all of the matches including the tutorials. I believe there's tutorials in the video section of the forums as well. I dunno if they're still there though.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I watch videos all the time. I love showing my friends who have no idea what any of this more advanced stuff is (and some don't care). I was practicing some ledgehop bairs earlier, but is one able to do it and get back on the stage without using up+B? I messed up alot by accidentally pressing towards the stage too quickly and doing a fair instead. I just don't edgehopping. In fact, anything advanced that involves hanging from the edge is something I'm extremely inexperienced at. I haven't even learned to use edgehogging since none of my friends know what sweet spotting is and don't bother trying, so I typically just stand on the edge and time a SH dair to spike them to their doom.

I hate fairs, except on occassion I'll catch someone in the air and after the second kick will fast fall it and get them with the whole thing...seems good for damage, but it's always a mistake (except for the fast fall where I'm just trying to make the best of it).

 

[Oskurito]

Well I personally use dair for edge guarding. I grab the edge then let it go and jump > dair into the stage and still hit my foe, or else I drop jump then Walljump dair very fast and still make it back on to the stage with my second jump and a perfect angled fire bird

 

[terr13]

To Bair and make it back on the stage, I press away on the control stick, hold it while i use Z to do the attack. Then I push the control stick back toward the stage. I usually use Z to do rising attacks, such as ledgehop Dair.

 

[Abulize]

Try becoming more experienced on the ledge and off the stage. Falco's greatest disadvantage is when he's off the stage. There are many ways to edgeguard besides his dair. Forward actually uses fair a lot. It's useful sometimes but not all the time. Keep it up.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I find fair most useful when I'm attacking high in the air since, like I mentioned, it throws on a lot of damage if you hit with the whole thing. I've got more experience off the stage than I do on the edge. I can survive my brother's Ganandorf over 200% on some occassions as I think I DI (fairly) well, but more importantly because I'm fairly good at getting back on. I do have one question, though. Is it better to sweetspot as much as possible or is it dependent on the situation? I think the methods I use now wouldn't work against someone more experienced than my brother or my friends...and they're not trying to improve as much as I am, so I'm kinda leaving them behind which is disappointing because I have no idea what it's like to play with someone who's very good at the game.

I have another question. What is pillaring? I first thought it was the dair, but was reading something earlier that has led me to believe it is instead a the process of quick short hop airs and/or shines in succession right on top of a player (who's shielding?)

Anyways, I'm going to watch a couple videos and go read a book.

 

[terr13]

Surviving at 200% against Ganondorf? It must be like Hyrule temple or something, since he can stomp you to death at around 130%, and probably kill you with a jab before 200%...

 

[lonelytraveler8]

No, not hyrule temple. But I do admit I was able to avoid mostly everything...though he loves spamming that jab. And yes, he's quite good with that stomp and annoys me constantly with it. I believe it was final destination since we rarely play anything else together until recently.

I won't lie, though...200% may be an exaggerated, but I can definitely say I survive to 130% fairly often. Anyhow, it's of little importance, I suppose, though now I'm going to feel compelled to see exactly how long I can survive his Ganondorf lol. I still have my question on pillaring.

 

[siresword]

I still have my question on pillaring.

and i still want to know if you can waveland the shl

and i believe <-- can be wrong :o
that pillaring is actually doubleshining on someone's shield to deplete it
the shine to spike combo is the one you see lots of falcos doing to rack up %'s on people (the one that looks flashy in the vids)

 

[Abulize]

Pillaring is the pressure you put on someone's shield with the dairs and shines. If you ever watch DaShizWiz's combo video. At the end you'll see him break someone's shield. He plays against a Fox while he does it.

Also it depends if you should sweetspot the edge or not. Generally though you should.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Alrighty, I got the hang of SHFFLing enough to actually do it against another character and then ran into another problem. When I hit said character, there would be a moment of lag before I was able to fast fall that kept throwing me off. Once I got around that, I decided to test out SHFFLing a dair into a shine to prevent a grab so I had a friend try to shield grab me. And even with the fast fall, he caught me before I hit the ground.

So now I have a new question, how do I prevent that? Should be fast falling already when I hit the player, so the fall starts before that moment of lag when I hit him? I just figured that shining would be useful to prevent shield grabbing so I want to make sure I learn to do it right.

I watched the spot in the video you mentioned a few times before I posted the question and it's part of where I got the question. But I have another one related to it. Can you jump out of a shine into another one without actually leaving the ground? I was able to SHFFL a dair into a shine and then jump cancel into another shine all nice and quick (my brother thought it was cool lol), but I left the ground by just a tiny bit.

Edit: Yeah, 200% on Ganondorf wasn't right...I was able to get to almost 150 when I was lucky. Mostly would manage to jump before his dairs to get spiked into the ground instead of through the ceiling.

Edit 2: No, I wasn't able to waveland the SHL laser when I tried. It was a good idea, but doesn't work since you'd have to wait for the gun animation to finish.

 

[siresword]

Alrighty, I got the hang of SHFFLing enough to actually do it against another character and then ran into another problem. When I hit said character, there would be a moment of lag before I was able to fast fall that kept throwing me off. Once I got around that, I decided to test out SHFFLing a dair into a shine to prevent a grab so I had a friend try to shield grab me. And even with the fast fall, he caught me before I hit the ground.

So now I have a new question, how do I prevent that? Should be fast falling already when I hit the player, so the fall starts before that moment of lag when I hit him? I just figured that shining would be useful to prevent shield grabbing so I want to make sure I learn to do it right.

I watched the spot in the video you mentioned a few times before I posted the question and it's part of where I got the question. But I have another one related to it. Can you jump out of a shine into another one without actually leaving the ground? I was able to SHFFL a dair into a shine and then jump cancel into another shine all nice and quick (my brother thought it was cool lol), but I left the ground by just a tiny bit.

i dunno - thats part of my problem

Edit 2: No, I wasn't able to waveland the SHL laser when I tried. It was a good idea, but doesn't work since you'd have to wait for the gun animation to finish.

i knew it .. but im wondering what people are doing (like viperboy) when they shl .. there's something else that they do when they land the laser

 

[MrBitter]

The start of Falco's dash animation looks a lot like his wavedash...

So when people dash right after landing a SHL, it appears that they're wavelanding. Some people like to SHL, dash, wavedash... This is probably what you're seeing in the videos you referenced.

You fast fall after you start your d-air. If you fast fall before the d-air, you'll land before the attack can come out. (Assuming you short hopped)

If you're getting grabbed before you land, you're probably starting your d-air too soon. Remember that your aerials can be manipulated just like your SHL's. You can start your attack at different points in your jump to change what part of your opponent you hit.

Another reason you may be getting grabbed is botched l-cancelling. If you don't l-cancel your aerial, your opponent will have twice as many recovery frames to punish you.

It is possible to shine, jump cancel and shine again before ever leaving the ground. Da Shiz Wiz is probably the best double shining Falco that there is... Look up some of his videos in the stickied video thread to see it in action...

It's an excellent trick for breaking shields, but it requires some really fast finger movement.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Yeah, I played with double shining, using two different fingers for each button and found I was able to do it several times in a row, but I couldn't do it with just one finger.

I also figured out last night what you said about dashing looking like wavedashing as I finally was able to do approaching and reverse (minus the ff part) SHLs. I do approaching lasers by dashing, jumping, laser, ff, repeat. I just need to work on better control now.

I also practiced ledge hopped bairs. I'm having trouble landing on the stage after the attack, but I suppose that'll come with practice. I suppose the next thing I need to learn to practice is SHFFLing an air on someone's shield and then shining to prevent a grab (does it prevent it by knocking them back or stunning so that I can wavedash or jump out of the way?)

I'll keep in mind what you said about doing my attack later into my jump.

One last thing...I had some trouble telling if I was actually l-cancelling last night. I was practicing it and doing a dair into a shine. I first did it without an l-cancel to see how long it would take and then did l-cancel and it took less time to shine. But sometimes I seemed to be able to shine instantly after landing. I was wondering if maybe I was pressing B for the shine to quickly on the times it didn't work or something.

 

[MrBitter]

For practicing double shines:
- Try jumping using the control stick instead of X/Y.

For ledge hopped b-airs:
- Try using the c-stick to execute the b-air... For example, while hanging from the ledge, press down, then up and towards the stage, then flick the c-stick for the b-air.

In regards to l-cancelling:
- If your shine doesn't appear to come out instantly, then you're not l-cancelling. The best way to practice this is in training mode, at 1/2 speed. At 1/2 speed, you can easily see the difference between an l-cancelled air and a non-l-cancelled air. Once you get to 80-90% efficiency at 1/2 speed, move back to full speed and continue practicing. This is the single most difficult aspect of Smash, IMO, but it'll increase your skills enormously once mastered.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I don't know. I think I'm l-cancelling (I use R) correctly, but holding R too long because I usually land in a shield. The shield comes out after the shield, and still faster than when I don't try to l-cancel, but because of the shield coming out, it's not always "instant".

That only happens when I fast fall. When I leave out the fast fall, I get it just about every time.

Edit: Ok, yeah...I think I have it now. Thanks. Now I just need to practice it until it's all second nature...I still find myself thinking about it too much when I'm actually playing against someone.

 

[Khaly]

A is closer, which makes it easier for some people, but if you want to do something like Bair'ing forwards, its a little harder with A. Personally, I use c-stick, but its a bad habit I wish I hadn't developed.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Why do you say it's a bad habit? I find the c-stick extremely useful.

 

[Kada]

If you think C-sticking is a bad habit, then you (and most likely people you play with) are terribly mistaken. Everybody uses the C-stick at the higher level of play, don't let anyone who calls it "cheap" tell you otherwise. It is almost essential to be able to control your aerial movement while you do your aerials, and also makes some things that are impossible to do with the control stick possible. Not to mention that without the C-stick, characters that rely heavily on spacing would be harder to play/useless.

Try doing retreating short hop fairs with Marth, or a quick Shine --> Bair with Falco, or a perfect edgehop waveland with Gannondorf consistently without the C-stick. It may be possible, sure. But why put yourself throught the extra trouble for "honor," that doesn't even exist anywhere in this game?

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Aye. To my friend's "C-stick user" I say "Hell yeah" lol

I've used the c-stick since I started playing back when the game was new...I just wish I learned about all these advanced techniques years ago.

Fortunately, I think I'm learning fairly quickly. Can "do" basically everything I need to at this point...I just need to make it all second nature, hone, get faster and use it in my actual game. oi. Now comes the part that will take awhile.

Thanks everyone for all the tips and help. I'll probably be back with more questions should I think of any.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Ok, so I just got my chance to play against some people who know what they're doing. Basically, it sucked. It was extremely frustrating and very discouraging. I missed too much and my lasers didn't do much of anything, and when I got hit into the air, I usually wasn't able to touch ground again or when I did, the combo continued as I stood or rolled up. The longest combo I think I managed to do was 2-3 hits and I rarely was able to get in close enough to shine, or when I did, I was already being hit or grabbed. Not to mentioned recovering from off stage was nigh impossible, even at ~15% damage.

Ok, I got my rant out. It was frustrating, but I watched a couple other people play falco and even played one who handed my feathers to me more than anyone else. Yeah, I had chances to attack, but I screwed up alot. I was nervous and missed short hops or would attack and land in front of them not thinking correctly. I'll keep practicing, but the thing that bothered me most was my inability to get out of a combo. I got right, they're there. I got left, still there. I get up in the spot and they dash dance into a grab before I'm able to do anything.

So I know how to do the technical stuff. I just need to practice a lot. Spacing problems will go away (I hope) as I use everything on actual players. But how do I escape combos? Yeah, ridiculously vague question, but anything that helps even if it's situational will be nice. It'll at least get me thinking and considering my own situations.

And sorry for so obviously sounding frustrated. It was probably a mistake to play against anyone having only been learning all this for 9 days.

 

[Oskurito]

And sorry for so obviously sounding frustrated. It was probably a mistake to play against anyone having only been learning all this for 9 days.

With this you've answered most of your thoughts, you need more practice for not to screw up when you're playing in a serious(or important) match and basicly play more people to loose that nervousness you're having, I've passed for the same situation and most of us too, what you need is more expirience.

How to escape a combo? check out the guide on how to DI, because DI is the only thing you'll need to do that.

Useful tip: also when a Marth is CG'ing you, you can DI up(at around 20-30% I don't remember) and shine him in the face and start your own combo from there.