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Lack of smash DI might be good.

Road Death Wheel

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For those who do not know smash DI is different from regular DI
DI is when slight alter you directon with the control stick.
Smash DI is when let say fox multihits you with his kicks and your able to move out of it by tilting the control stick.

Now smash 4 has extremely little or no smash DI at all.
Their are nay sayers but im just saying perhaps this is not a bad thing.
landing lag seems to have been shortened and some moves have very little but smome moves have a lot as well.
what im grtting at is that the lack of DI might be great for combo and strategies. bowser seems to have a great egde game with his fire pushing back. regardless.
and character like fox , kirby and mario have great utility in there down arieals.
there's difinitly more im just saying this might be a good turn for smash 4.
 
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Johnknight1

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There's a lot of vertical DI left, which of course favors offense.

I'd say "free falling" it generally is about 80% of what it was in Brawl, but fast falling it generally is about 20% slower than it is in Melee. This is a cool mix if you ask me. It makes the floatiness between characters and fast falling vs. "free falling" very different.

It also varies a lot from character to character, possibly more so than any other game in the franchise.

===

The lack of horizontal DI basically makes aerial camping impossible, along with the lack of hitstun air dodges and air dodges getting nerfed from Brawl.

The only way I see aerial camping being a thing is if there's an aerial move with stupid priority, or there's a hit and run projectile move that's OP. Other than that, aerial camping won't be a thing.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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There's a lot of vertical DI left, which of course favors offense.

The lack of horizontal DI basically makes aerial camping impossible, along with the lack of hitstun air dodges and air dodges getting nerfed from Brawl.

The only way I see aerial camping being a thing is if there's an aerial move with stupid priority, or there's a hit and run projectile move that's OP. Other than that, aerial camping won't be a thing.
not exactaly smash DI
but i did not know there was little normal horizontal DI
 

LancerStaff

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I don't really understand why people want it back, since it makes all moves work as intended. Of course it's removal is good. Because it makes Pit high tier!
 

Johnknight1

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not exactaly smash DI
but i did not know there was little normal horizontal DI
Oh nah, I read you, I just wanted to expand upon it so we get the whole DI picture! XD

The horizontal DI being limited is kind of interesting though. Like I said, without a broken projectile or a move with broken priority, aerial camping is dead. Aerial stalling is mostly dead. That's a good thing for those of us who love non-stop smash bros. action and want shorter, very offensive-orientated matches.

You will see the defense with the Smash DI be a lot like Smash 64, where if you get hit high up, you have to zig zag or DI one way hard in order to avoid the opponent. Those moments where people do that, it will be hype, just like it is in Smash 64. I can already see the crowds blowing up when that happens with hype.
 
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TimeSmash

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As someone who played Zelda in Brawl briefly, when people were able to SDI out of her FSmashes and USmashes it was QUITE annoying. So I'm kind of okay with this, although I was under the impression Smash DI was smashing the Control/C Stick multiple times away, instead of just once. I always confuse the terms haha
 

RedFly

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I don't really understand why people want it back, since it makes all moves work as intended. Of course it's removal is good. Because it makes Pit high tier!
Like Wavedashing... Kind of...
 

Amazing Ampharos

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DI is completely independent from direction; there is no such thing as "horizontal" or "vertical" DI. I think there's a lot of common misunderstanding about what a lot of this actually means and how game mechanics work so I'll explain as best I can within the mechanics of all four official smash games.

In smash games other than Smash 64, you can DI. This is just holding a direction on the frame you exit hitlag (that pause state that occurs as you are being hit), and what it does is bend the angle of the launch by about 20 degrees toward the direction you are holding (I think the exact difference it makes varies from game to game, but it's always in the neighborhood of 20 degrees). Obviously that doesn't mean anything if you are holding either directly toward or away from the launch so, for proper DI, you should hold a direction perpendicular to the launch. Some people suggested this was different in smash 4 than in other smash games, but to me, it felt exactly the same.

SDI is the ability to teleport during hitlag and is present in every smash game except apparently smash 4 but including smash 64. You just hit the stick in a direction and you teleport a small distance in that direction during hitlag. Notably, you don't have to reset the control stick to neutral to input another SDI so you can just wiggle the stick between the direction you want to go and one of the near diagonals so rapidly SDI even with low tech skill (the c-stick can be used for SDI, but it requires neutral resets so it's only useful for high tech skill double stick SDI). The teleport distance is mostly too small to make a significant survival difference so the main utility is escaping multi-hit moves; you probably notice strong Brawl players never get hit by the entirety of Pikachu's down smash, and SDI is the reason. However, with enough reactions and tech skill, it can really be used to neuter any multi-hit moves; top players in Melee use it to avoid the second hit of Fox's deadly up aerial with a terrifying success rate! Mostly this being gone from smash 4 means that multi-hit moves are a lot more viable when strong players are involved; in Brawl especially, so many of them were just terrible both due to poor parameterization in the first place (so many just didn't work normally) and due to SDI making them very practical to consistently escape and often even punish the hapless attacker.

aSDI is related to SDI closely. I don't know if it's in smash 64, but it's definitely in Melee and Brawl. You just get an extra and smaller "free" SDI on the frame hitlag ends in the direction you're holding on the control stick. Obviously this conflicts with DI, but it's just extra help escaping those multi-hit moves.

Air control is a mechanic present in every smash game that has nothing whatsoever to do with DI that is often confused with it. When in the air in most states (not hitstun, not executing most special moves), you can direct your character to the left or right by holding the control stick. This actually has three associated parameters to give each character unique physics. You have a character specific top speed, acceleration per frame, and a deceleration boost per frame. The first two are pretty straightforward; your character accelerates by so much per frame capped out at some max speed. The very high aerial mobility characters like Jigglypuff and Wario have very high values for both, but some characters mix and match (for instance, Yoshi traditionally has one of the best top speeds but a mediocre acceleration). The deceleration boost is a factor that causes most characters to lose speed faster than gaining it. That is, if you're already moving in one direction and then hit the stick in the other direction, you'll slow down to zero faster than the time it would take you to speed up from zero to max speed. This is a pretty small but real factor for most characters, but for a few, it's very large (Mr. Game & Watch in Brawl notably has a very large deceleration boost which is the main source of his excellent air control). As far as I can tell, typical values of this are pretty steady across the series though it's not always intuitive; a lot of people think of Kirby and Jigglypuff as similar characters, but while Jigglypuff always has excellent air control, Kirby's has always been quite poor which forces Kirby to rely on the instantaneous movement bonuses of mid-air jumps to move around effectively. No, from what I can tell from the demo, this is not a bit lower than it was on average in Brawl, but neither Jigglypuff nor Wario were in the demo who as a whole really were just so much better than every other character in this regard so who can say?

There's also fall speed which is also unrelated to everything else. Gravity constantly affects every character though in smash 4 it doesn't seem to while you are in hitstun (it does in every other game). You have a character specific acceleration due to gravity and a character specific terminal fall speed. Inputting a fast fall by pressing down at any point you are not actively rising from a jump and are in mid-air will cause you to begin to fastfall which adds some character specific value to your acceleration and increases your terminal velocity (again, character specific how much). Reports are very mixed on how these parameters vary between Brawl and Smash 4. It kinda seemed to me like fall speeds were a little higher on average and fast fall speeds were a lot higher on average, but it's such a character specific thing (could easily be one way with one character and exactly the opposite with another) and so impossible to measure in a demo that no one can make any good claims with confidence on this matter.

I hope that clears things up for everyone on how hitting the stick in directions while in the air or while being hit affects how you move in smash. Not only is understanding that very important to playing well, but it's also very important to communicating about the game.
 
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Celestis

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I completely support anything that promotes Combos, but I don't like the idea of anything that makes it impossible for the player getting comboed to do anything about it. I don't want combos that my opponent is helpless to do anything about. I want to earn the combos I pull off. No SDI is really depressing for me.

When I saw DK getting beat up by Fox's kick combo and the DK player unable to do a thing about other then just put the controller down and wait till it ends was so.. Painful! Never in a smash game have you not been able to do something about your situation. Helplessness..
 

RascalTheCharizard

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When I saw DK getting beat up by Fox's kick combo and the DK player unable to do a thing about other then just put the controller down and wait till it ends was so.. Painful! Never in a smash game have you not been able to do something about your situation. Helplessness..
Normally I'd agree with this, but that's just classic DK lol. Smash has had a base level tradeoff right from the first game that light characters are easy to KO but harder to combo and vice versa for heavy characters. Compare DK to Jigglypuff in Melee, perfect examples. DK is the second heaviest and one of the fastest falling (maybe 4th?) characters in the game. This means that he doesn't get sent back far which is a double-edged sword. Quick weak hits can beat the heck out of him for days, but whilst building damage% on him is easy, the KO% for DK is much higher because he won't get sent back as far as the incredibly frail Jiggs. DK's large frame doesn't help this either.

TL;DR - Helplessness sucks, but you need to keep that in mind when picking a character to play lol. It's just a weakness of some characters and a strength of others. It's why I hate the "fatties".
 

Big-Cat

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I completely support anything that promotes Combos, but I don't like the idea of anything that makes it impossible for the player getting comboed to do anything about it. I don't want combos that my opponent is helpless to do anything about. I want to earn the combos I pull off. No SDI is really depressing for me.

When I saw DK getting beat up by Fox's kick combo and the DK player unable to do a thing about other then just put the controller down and wait till it ends was so.. Painful! Never in a smash game have you not been able to do something about your situation. Helplessness..
You want helpless? Look at Marvel. vs. Capcom or BlazBlue.
 

NekuShikazu

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I like the ideas of Combos. If Sakurai does intend to have us use combos, I hope game play isn't entirely combo reliant. I don't know how to explain it, but it's like Vs Capcom games where you pretty much are screwed if you get punished, so there would need to be balancing on when a Combo should automatically end.
When I look at game play, it looks likes that pulling off combos is easier and with those super amazing sound effects, it sounds twice as better!
 

Big-Cat

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I like the ideas of Combos. If Sakurai does intend to have us use combos, I hope game play isn't entirely combo reliant. I don't know how to explain it, but it's like Vs Capcom games where you pretty much are screwed if you get punished, so there would need to be balancing on when a Combo should automatically end.
When I look at game play, it looks likes that pulling off combos is easier and with those super amazing sound effects, it sounds twice as better!
Most fighting games aren't.
 

EazyDI

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I like the ideas of Combos. If Sakurai does intend to have us use combos, I hope game play isn't entirely combo reliant. I don't know how to explain it, but it's like Vs Capcom games where you pretty much are screwed if you get punished, so there would need to be balancing on when a Combo should automatically end.
When I look at game play, it looks likes that pulling off combos is easier and with those super amazing sound effects, it sounds twice as better!
Like Smash 64?
 

Pazzo.

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It appears that Smash 4 is shaping up similarly like Smash 64... Which is good, cause' I still have my N64. :laughL:
 

EazyDI

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While Smash 4 does have more hit stun, trust me, you aren't going to be able to 0-death combo people with combos like you can in Smash 64. The lag and knock back in Smash 4 prevents follow ups that lead to those 3-7 hit guaranteed combos Smash 64 had. But hey, the game isn't released yet and I'm pretty sure that people have pointed this out to Sakurai so maybe he'll add dash dancing, L-canelling, less knockback and lag by the time the game is release.
 

Shiliski

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You want helpless? Look at Marvel. vs. Capcom or BlazBlue.
I dunno much about MvC, but BlazBlue actually gives you some amount of escape options. First off, if they catch you in a super-long combo the damage dealt per attack will eventually hit zero, so infinite 0->death combos aren't really a thing. Theoretically Hakumen has a 0->death combo but it requires half his special gauge which isn't going to happen until near the end of the match, and it requires perfect blocking. (This is only for the first BB title. I don't know if later games have it or what form it's in.) It can also happen in single-player Arcade mode where the player can taunt in order to get a full special gauge.

There are some really long combos that require a full super meter, but with the way the game works it's unlikely that you'd actually be able to even finish those combos before your opponent lost what little HP they had left. (For reference, your heat (special) meter is usually only full up if both of you are near 20% HP or less, at which point any combo would finish them off, not just the super long ones).

BlazBlue also lets you spend a Burst Icon (you only get 1 or 2 per match, depending on circumstances) to get out of a combo for free, so if you recognize a really harsh combo coming your way you can use it and you've got another chance. Since a good combo will steal about 1/4th of your HP, this is kindof a big deal.

I admit I don't really like it when games have long combos that the victim can't do anything about, and the fact that BlazBlue's perfect combos require high mastery and precision isn't really an excuse. It's just like saying "my attacks hit harder because I know the game, regardless of whatever your skill level is". However, it's not really that bad, because it only means that matches between pros are going to be shorter and a lot less forgiving. Combos are fun to execute, but inescapable combos just feel like an artificial barrier to me.


I guess that's one of the reasons I like Smash. I have more defensive options that are easily accessible to the average player.
 

Big-Cat

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I dunno much about MvC, but BlazBlue actually gives you some amount of escape options. First off, if they catch you in a super-long combo the damage dealt per attack will eventually hit zero, so infinite 0->death combos aren't really a thing. Theoretically Hakumen has a 0->death combo but it requires half his special gauge which isn't going to happen until near the end of the match, and it requires perfect blocking. (This is only for the first BB title. I don't know if later games have it or what form it's in.) It can also happen in single-player Arcade mode where the player can taunt in order to get a full special gauge.

There are some really long combos that require a full super meter, but with the way the game works it's unlikely that you'd actually be able to even finish those combos before your opponent lost what little HP they had left. (For reference, your heat (special) meter is usually only full up if both of you are near 20% HP or less, at which point any combo would finish them off, not just the super long ones).

BlazBlue also lets you spend a Burst Icon (you only get 1 or 2 per match, depending on circumstances) to get out of a combo for free, so if you recognize a really harsh combo coming your way you can use it and you've got another chance. Since a good combo will steal about 1/4th of your HP, this is kindof a big deal.

I admit I don't really like it when games have long combos that the victim can't do anything about, and the fact that BlazBlue's perfect combos require high mastery and precision isn't really an excuse. It's just like saying "my attacks hit harder because I know the game, regardless of whatever your skill level is". However, it's not really that bad, because it only means that matches between pros are going to be shorter and a lot less forgiving. Combos are fun to execute, but inescapable combos just feel like an artificial barrier to me.


I guess that's one of the reasons I like Smash. I have more defensive options that are easily accessible to the average player.
My problem is that BlazBlue's combos are too long. At least they aren't Marvel length. They aren't TOD combos that's for sure.
 

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While Smash 4 does have more hit stun, trust me, you aren't going to be able to 0-death combo people with combos like you can in Smash 64. The lag and knock back in Smash 4 prevents follow ups that lead to those 3-7 hit guaranteed combos Smash 64 had. But hey, the game isn't released yet and I'm pretty sure that people have pointed this out to Sakurai so maybe he'll add dash dancing, L-canelling, less knockback and lag by the time the game is release.
don't get your hopes up on L-canceling. dash dancing i can see maybe coming back.
 

EazyDI

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don't get your hopes up on L-canceling. dash dancing i can see maybe coming back.
L-cancelling was added to Smash 64 and Melee on purpose and wasn't added to Brawl because you know the whole Wii story. Z-cancelling was listed on the Japanese and American Smash 64 website as an advanced technique and it was called "smooth landing". You can find it by using the Waybackmachine or you could just visit the Japanese 64 website which is still up and running. I think it has a chance but not as much as dash dancing and reduced lag and knockback.
 
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kazrisk

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don't get your hopes up on L-canceling. dash dancing i can see maybe coming back.
Yeah, if anything land lag will simply be reduced. I think all dashing mechanics were quite rusty at E3 and probably just hadn't been as developed as the rest of the game. Hoping so. Lots of time between when that demo was made and the final release.

This isn't a good thing smh.
Reading the other comments, you seem to be in the minority and you also lack any explanation while the other arguments are quite thorough... smh.
 

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This being said though, how is being hit by--

I was just going to ask about multi-jabs, but before I do they don't really exist anymore, do they? I forgot everything results in a finisher. The only qualm I have is what if there's some sort of exploit where you can cancel a multihit move into itself or another multihit move? No one wants a cheap combo like that unless it's limited, like how Zelda's USmash can chain fastfallers in Project M
 

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With the removal of infinite jabs and moves like Angel Ring, + some speed increases, the lack of DI might not be so bad.
This game is really shaping up to be its own thing.
 

kazrisk

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This game is really shaping up to be its own thing.
Definitely, that's why I get irked when I hear "Brawl 2.0," it shares things but that's only natural - overall it is its own independent Smash and I personally think it's shaping up to potentially be the best Smash yet, can't wait. Da hype. DA HYPE!!!
 

ImaClubYou

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Some arguments people may address is that combo's might become static. Doing the most optimal combo in every situation meaning if Dair, Fair, Jab, FSmash is the best combo for one character, then that combo will always be used. Kind of like traditional fighting games.

I would argue this because Smash is still, as Prog would say, Free Form Jazz. You don't see top players doing the same thing all the time. Stage positioning and platforms also allows for different scenario's and forces different moves.

So yes, SDI being gone is a good thing, imo. Actually, DI being gone period is a good thing.
 

Shiliski

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Some arguments people may address is that combo's might become static. Doing the most optimal combo in every situation meaning if Dair, Fair, Jab, FSmash is the best combo for one character, then that combo will always be used. Kind of like traditional fighting games.

I would argue this because Smash is still, as Prog would say, Free Form Jazz. You don't see top players doing the same thing all the time. Stage positioning and platforms also allows for different scenario's and forces different moves.

So yes, SDI being gone is a good thing, imo. Actually, DI being gone period is a good thing.
Well yeah. Having one combo available per character doesn't mean that one combo is going to be used at all times. You have to connect with that first hit, and that first hit can be predicted and shut down. Also, combos are probably going to be harder to perform as damage increases, considering knockback.

To explain my opinion on that... eh... I'm just gonna use BlazBlue as an example because it's the only combo-dependent game I know that well.

Static combos work in BlazBlue because, to use Nu/Lamda as an example, you know that if your victim is in the air when you hit him with your 6DD, he'll be perfectly set up to get hit by your 2DD, which will in turn set him up for a jump cancel into an air DD, then jump cancel again into air 2DD. If he's perfectly lined up, you can also add in her 214D to end the combo. For those who don't know those inputs or don't know the game, this combo basically looks like a bunch of energy swords appearing in mid-air and stabbing Nu/Lamda's enemies from multiple directions, ending with her using an axe kick. Litchi's 3 "Three Dragons" moves also combo into each other super easy for similar reasons: the knockback is predictable and works generally the same every time. This combo works on every character in BB:CS, regardless of size. I haven't played BB:CP yet, but I imagine it works there, too.

Also, in BlazBlue, some moves are actually hard-coded to combo well into other moves, while I think most combo chains in Smash will be mostly unintentional due to Sakurai's mindset. To get a combo going you need to use one move to set up your target for another move, and then that second move sets them up for a third move, and so on.

In Smash, knockback isn't predictable at all. It changes vastly from character to character due to different weights and fall speeds, and is highly dependent upon damage dealt. I might be wrong on this, but I think the only reliable combos you could really come up with would probably require a string of moves that use very little knockback, possibly ending with a single move that has great knockback. Something that works great on Bowser wont necessarily be all that effective on someone like Jigglypuff. On the other hand, a combo in Smash doesn't have to be long in order to cost you a stock.

That said I like DI as an idea. We need a way to escape once we're in hitstun. I actually wouldn't mind a few more post-hit escape options, but not too many. Landing a hit should still give an advantage to the attacker, but the defender also needs to not be helpless.
 

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Well yeah. Having one combo available per character doesn't mean that one combo is going to be used at all times. You have to connect with that first hit, and that first hit can be predicted and shut down. Also, combos are probably going to be harder to perform as damage increases, considering knockback.

To explain my opinion on that... eh... I'm just gonna use BlazBlue as an example because it's the only combo-dependent game I know that well.

Static combos work in BlazBlue because, to use Nu/Lamda as an example, you know that if your victim is in the air when you hit him with your 6DD, he'll be perfectly set up to get hit by your 2DD, which will in turn set him up for a jump cancel into an air DD, then jump cancel again into air 2DD. If he's perfectly lined up, you can also add in her 214D to end the combo. For those who don't know those inputs or don't know the game, this combo basically looks like a bunch of energy swords appearing in mid-air and stabbing Nu/Lamda's enemies from multiple directions, ending with her using an axe kick. Litchi's 3 "Three Dragons" moves also combo into each other super easy for similar reasons: the knockback is predictable and works generally the same every time. This combo works on every character in BB:CS, regardless of size. I haven't played BB:CP yet, but I imagine it works there, too.

Also, in BlazBlue, some moves are actually hard-coded to combo well into other moves, while I think most combo chains in Smash will be mostly unintentional due to Sakurai's mindset. To get a combo going you need to use one move to set up your target for another move, and then that second move sets them up for a third move, and so on.

In Smash, knockback isn't predictable at all. It changes vastly from character to character due to different weights and fall speeds, and is highly dependent upon damage dealt. I might be wrong on this, but I think the only reliable combos you could really come up with would probably require a string of moves that use very little knockback, possibly ending with a single move that has great knockback. Something that works great on Bowser wont necessarily be all that effective on someone like Jigglypuff. On the other hand, a combo in Smash doesn't have to be long in order to cost you a stock.

That said I like DI as an idea. We need a way to escape once we're in hitstun. I actually wouldn't mind a few more post-hit escape options, but not too many. Landing a hit should still give an advantage to the attacker, but the defender also needs to not be helpless.
I never played BlazBlue so I can't relate to that but.....


Yeah. Agreeable points. All I can say really.
 

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I'm a Kirby. I'm at high percent, tense, shaking... and fighting a Marth in neutral position--I'm at a mobility and range disadvantage, I should play safe and bait an opening...

Weaving in and out of his range, I manage to trick Marth to throw out an f-tilt (surely this Marth isn't very experienced to throw that out, but whatever), it leaves him open! I run in and hit him with the first hit of forward air and then... in the distance... I hear the rapid flicking of both control sticks! I focus on Marth, who suddenly teleports away from the final hit. I'm stuck in end lag! What is this?

He then throws out his broken invincible filled Dolphin Slash, which shoots me afar at a high speed--beautiful colours trail before me, and I majestically explode against some invisible wall! "Minna, miteite kure!" is the last thing I hear. A new Kirby replaced me not too long after.

Smash DI is something I hope stays gone.
 
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Tristan_win

Not dead.
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I'm completely torn, I have so many fond memories of smash DI saving my life, like when I would smash DI into the stage and tech in Melee over and over again as my opponent keep smashing me until one of us mess up. It would build up so much excitement when I did manage to survive or when I would smash DI out of a drill so I wouldn't be so easily comboed into the next move, or in Brawl when I would smash dI behind someone rapid jab string and punish them. Time like these I feel so deeply empowered by smash DI and I respect it to when my opponent does the same to me. I don't know how my friend got so good at it but in melee his marth would at times be constant with the tech, I've counted smashing him roughly 10 times in a row many times before just letting him recover out of respect.(Only in friendlies)

...But on the other hand there's a lot more multiple hitting moves in smash now and although improved hit stun is still lacking when compared to Melee. I really hate the idea of taking away a option from us but... it might be needed for Smash4 as it improve move viability, assuming it's balanced correctly so nothing silly like inescapable muti htting moves which I'm honestly really worried about.
 
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