L-Cancelling DOES ADD DEPTH TO THE GAME

[Fortress | Sveet]

So you want to go into starcraft and just auto macro, auto micro? And go into DotA/LoL and get every last hit perfect? The point is to have more ways for players to outplay each other, that is what depth is.

 

[primes2113]

Their argument is that adding a mechanic you can mess up that essentially decides whether you can or can't play competitively limits our outreach to newcomers. I want a game that has depth and puts the more skilled player at an advantage but something that you NEED to commit to muscle memory and put little further thought into really is just a barrier.

Does it add depth, no doubt. That cannot be argued and it is also nice to have a bit of a barrier, its always nice to get destroyed and feel like you're truly playing the game for the first time but tech, wavedashing, ccing, etc. have more depth to them as a tool you can use in different ways rather than a tool you need to learn just to make things faster. The game could simply be faster instead.

Basically does it add more than it takes away in terms of depth vs. learning curve. That can be argued

The final statement and ultimate point of this discussion comes down to taste.

 

[KrIsP!]

Agreed. I don't care either way tbh, I've already committed to putting the effort in, but I know others see it as something that holds newcomers back so I can understand that.

 

[JKJ]

I don't ever disagree with placing a skill barrier that helps to separate good players from bad players.
I don't want moves to auto-lag cancel so that any n00b can aerial on shield without trying. I enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that I worked very hard to pull off whatever combo/pressure sequence I just did. It is very validating to me, at least. Also, it is extremely difficult to consistently l-cancel in strange situations, like vs a light/full shield combo from an icies player, or after hitting shy guys on yoshi's, or after hitting a needle trap set by a sheik player.

 

[EpixAura]

Every additional input that can or must be utilized increases depth. At lower levels of play, it adds a great deal of depth because it's not just reward, it also has a risk of missing it and performing an unintentional shield, as well as being something that is consciously focused on, potentially detracting from your overall awareness of the game.
At higher levels of play, not only does it serve as an advanced technique which requires practice and yields a high reward (thus increasing the skill cap), it opens to doors to all sorts of combos and options.

I suppose it could be viewed as an unnecessary barrier to some people, though. It could be argued that since everyone will always be L-canceling everything, there's no real reason to not make it automatic. However, I think advanced techniques like that increase the entertainment value of the game. Practicing techniques give you a smaller goal to strive for, which is good, because they're aren't very many measurable goals in practicing Smash. I certainly think it adds depth to the game.

On a related note, wasn't L-canceling intentionally included as a part of Melee? I feel like a '6 frame window' and '50% endlag reduction' are just way too convenient to be a coincidence, especially since the creators were probably already aware of the mechanic from Smash 64.

 

[Frame Perfect]

7. it's 7 frames

 

[crush]

No. It is seven frames. Yall shouldnt use contractions in formal writing. Reported.

 

[NalsXR]

How about you taste my foot in your ass. Why the **** would a game reward me just for pressing buttons? That isn't the place of melee. Melee and games like melee reward quick thinking and l cancelling makes you have to think less just cause you press more buttons. Dumb players can beat smarter players if they know how to l cancel. If you really want to play a game that requires technical precision and nothing else, take up golf, or bowling. Its not even that hard. L cancel is just a distraction from the real meat of the game if you think knowing how to do it makes you cool LOL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have to say you are uninformed NalsXR. In fact, I beat plenty of people who know how to lcancel but havent learned all the proper mental aspects to the game by just walking around and grabbing. Lcanceling doesn't mean you won't get grabbed, it doesn't mean your attack will combo, it doesn't even mean your attack will hit.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

On a related note, wasn't L-canceling intentionally included as a part of Melee? I feel like a '6 frame window' and '50% endlag reduction' are just way too convenient to be a coincidence, especially since the creators were probably already aware of the mechanic from Smash 64.

Yup, it was on the Smash 64 website under the name of "smooth landing" or some **** like that.

 

[NalsXR]

Lcanceling doesn't mean you won't get grabbed, it doesn't mean your attack will combo, it doesn't even mean your attack will hit.

This is exactly what im trying to say. L cancelling gives the illusion of a better player. It makes the errors they make concerning the actual game less apparent. At high level play its just an ornament. I offer the following explanation for those who still defend l cancelling with the belief it adds depth: you are ass and you need the crutch to defend you from new players. Thats it

 

[poega]

There is also the whole choke-thing. I hope people consider that.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Whoever kicked over NalsXR's sand castle should apologize because he seems very upset

 

[primes2113]

Whoever kicked over NalsXR's sand castle should apologize because he seems very upset

He's in training mode right now having trouble SHFFLING

 

[NalsXR]

i can empty pivot across final destination, ****faces

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Whoever kicked over NalsXR's sand castle should apologize because he seems very upset

I don't know man, it looks like it got washed up by all the salt water

 

[TerryJ]

I'm not going to bother stating my opinion as several others have pretty much summed it up already.

NalsXR, you're not going to get any point across (let alone taken seriously) if you keep attacking the person you're arguing with. It's called an Ad Hominem. That sh*t ain't nice.

 

[NalsXR]

no wait let me actually make a point

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/the-four-aspects-of-melee.94597/ first read this, it goes into technical skill, 'mindgames' (prediction and throwing off prediction), tactics, and spacing.many of you already have? i dont know

say for any given situation a player has these four aspects down, and can basically punish the player because hes just that good. but this player cant l cancel for whatever reason. so even though he figured out what was going on, he still gets punished because he didn't bow to an arbitrary mechanic. he already has proven he's technical enough to actually execute the motions required to punish the player, but sakurai says no, you have to press z also.

the player asks 'why' and sakurai says 'because i said so' and im wondering why we defend this mentality. I want the game to speak for itself about what is technical and not technical, based on the situation, and not for stuff like that. it just makes the GAME vs the opponent harder to slog through, overall it ******* the metagame, why

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wheres your point? Im waiting...

 

[NalsXR]

I just don't think a video game has the right to tell me i'm technical and im faster mentally for pressing a button.
yes it makes playing people more interesting,because their and your options for moving around in the mental game are limited, and you're constantly trying to push those limits

if i sat down and made a fighting game though efforts on making the exchange between players require more inputs and fast thinking would take precedence over adding things like L cancelling and FRCs or whatever

 

[TerryJ]

say for any given situation a player has these four aspects down, and can basically punish the player because hes just that good. but this player cant l cancel for whatever reason. so even though he figured out what was going on

He didn't figure out what was going on, he didn't L-Cancel when you seem to think he should have.

he still gets punished because he didn't bow to an arbitrary mechanic.

Arbitrary? With your line of thinking literally everything is arbitrary because Sakurai decided to do what he decided to do.

he already has proven he's technical enough to actually execute the motions required to punish the player

No he hasn't, he didn't L-Cancel.

the player asks 'why' and sakurai says 'because i said so' and im wondering why we defend this mentality. I want the game to speak for itself about what is technical and not technical, based on the situation, and not for stuff like that. it just makes the GAME vs the opponent harder to slog through, overall it ******* the metagame, why

So what you're essentaly saying is this:
If we were playing SSF4 and you wanted to do a(n?) Hadouken you would rather it be just one button instead of Quarter Circle Punch. So just Punch. Or maybe even just drop the quarter and just hit one direction.

This is what being technical is all about. It's about inserting more button presses in between the moves you're already doing to make you faster. A new player comes along and starts playing, and gets punished because of landing lag and now has less of a chance of getting punished. This player then learns about L-Canceling and now has close to no landing lag. This player has now become more technical.

I still don't get the point you're trying to make.

EDIT:

I just don't think a video game has the right to tell me i'm technical and im faster mentally for pressing a button

That's literally what video games are. Whoever can press the buttons better wins and how you do it is up to you.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Said it in the other thread and I'll say it here, features shouldn't be removed because some people cant do it or have trouble with their execution. That's just limiting the game for one point of view.

 

[NalsXR]

That's literally what video games are. Whoever can press the buttons better wins and how you do it is up to you.

I only feel like i progressed in a video game when I press buttons that get me through the levels. if I try to shoot a cherry in iwbtg i feel dumb.

I am really slouching on explaining why I don't like L cancelling.

i didn't talk about the other advanced maneuvers(technical skills) like dash dancing, double jump cancel, wave dashing, multishine, etc. because those make sense in a way that is cohesive with the rest of the game (spacing, mindgames,tactics)

all of these exercise technical skill:

• DD is just dashing the other way before you start running, no big deal and it would make sense. it helps with spacing, throws off predictions,and is a valid tactical option to punish otherwise dangerous approaches
• WD is exploiting the momentum left over from letting the air dodge collide with the ground. again, helps with spacing, and is a valid tactical option
• DJC is letting the double jump stop your upward momentum and then cutting the DJ short with an attack to approach quickly. throws off predictions, and takes advantage of exact spacing.
• and Multishine is just having the skill to take advantage of being right next to the other guys shield, through understanding of how quickly fox and falco leave the ground.

these are about as 'hard' or harder as l cancelling aerial moves i guess

but l cancel doesn't exploit or interact with a game mechanic, it IS a game mechanic, designed independently from the flow of the game. somehow it proves im a better player in the context of the rest of the game?

You don't need L cancelling to make this game a workout for your hands. its hard to push yourself to time the dashdance nair against an approaching marth. its hard to weave in and out of a sheik's spacing. its hard to waveshine characters places, its hard to get the shine to come out just as you land from the laser. its hard to double fair consistently and accurately enough to ken combo, etc.

but all of these actions exploit actual mechanics that link to the rest of the game, and can be interacted with and changed by the players. l cancel is only related to the rest of the game because it is a limiter on how well you can exploit the natural order. If you really want to limit the player, though, make his opponent do it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So NalsXR, what you are saying is that there are certain arbitrary things you think are good, but lcanceling in particular is "too arbitrary" for you.

 

[NalsXR]

So NalsXR, what you are saying is that there are certain arbitrary things you think are good, but lcanceling in particular is "too arbitrary" for you.

all of this **** is arbitrary. l cancelling is arbitrary to the arbiter.

sorry, let me explain what I mean by that.

wobbles four aspects are pretty cool and I'll use them in order to quantify the flow of the game.
there are points in play (in exploiting the current situation of spacing,mindgames,and tactics with technical skill) where l cancel is relevant, but only because the game says 'stop the bus, you have to do this before I keep driving' when you land with an aerial. this entire thread is sorta pointless cause obs we're all gonna keep playing melee and no one's going to convince PMBR to put in 'auto cancel'

think about why l cancelling is sooo important. I don't think its a 'good' mechanic and thats why

 

[The 2t]

I think you may be overthinking it a little. Instead of seeing it as some kind of roadblock or something Sakurai is telling you that you must do, just think of it as what it actually is - a little extra something put into the game to reward players for putting in extra effort, by speeding up their gameplay. That's it. If we can learn to do it consistently enough that we do it all the time, more power to us.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I just don't think a video game has the right to tell me i'm technical and im faster mentally for pressing a button.

This is hilarious

 

[NalsXR]

This is hilarious

"responding to tone - criticizing to the tone of the writing without attacking the substance of the argument"

 

[Bad Cupboard]

nalsxr you are a hilarious person

 

[Prince_Abu]

I've already pointed this out a couple of times, but the "no scenario where you shouldn't l-cancel" is not looking at the bigger picture of depth and how execution affects and limits options. There is no scenario where you shouldn't follow-up a Fox upthrow with a guaranteed uair->kill, either, right (if that option is available based on character/stage/%)? It's just a trivial execution barrier. So why don't they just make uthrow kill after a certain percentage in those situations?

Good mechanics scale with skill such that they open up more options the better you get with them. Early on in your skill development, it does limit your ability to play in the air. Later, it does impact the complexity of the follow-ups you are physically able to reliably perform. It is a part of the balancing mechanism between one's ability to play in the air, and just because people don't miss l-cancels does not mean that players don't mess up other things (spacing, timing, etc) because of the part of their mind they have to devote to that technical skill.

Many things in gaming are risk-reward-related. L-cancelling impacts that equation for highly-technical sequences, thus impacts that calculation on what a player is trying to do. luzbwl explained it well earlier.

Again, I'm not wholly defending it as the best mechanism - ideally there would be more player interaction built into it, but it's a perfectly acceptable mechanic.

there are a lot of situations where u shouldnt follow up up throw with upair. for example u can bair instead thus avoiding the possibility to smash DI to up air. also up throw is interactive bc they can DI ur throw. l canceling is pointless complication and if it wasnt there new ppl wouldnt be so overwhelmed by melee

 

[Radiowar]

l-cancelling is to aerials as teching is to tumbling. why not think of it that way? ultimately it is about reducing recovery (ie. the amount of time a player doesn't have control over their character) in either offensive or defensive situations. their utility is more or less the same, as missing an l-cancel or a tech leaves you vulnerable to punish. whether or not there exists a situation where you "should" miss an l-cancel or a tech has no bearing on the merit of the technique in the first place. saying l-cancelling is a pointless technical barrier is like saying hitting techs is a pointless technical barrier (eg. if i'm marth trying to sweetspot the ledge and fox d smashes there is "never a situation" where i want it to send me flying off stage). not to mention l-cancelling is easier than teching.

 

[KrIsP!]

Teching has tech rolls, tech chases, mix ups and moments you might want to not do it. There's more thought put into it than pressing the button.

 

[Radiowar]

Teching has tech rolls, tech chases, mix ups and moment you might want to not do it. There's more thought out into it than pressing the button

teching doesn't "have" tech chases. the things you're describing exist outside of the technique itself, which is pressing L/R with the correct timing when in tumble.

 

[KrIsP!]

I'm saying there's more depth to it than pressing the button. Pressing l/r with the correct timing is watering it down. Basically I don't agree with the analogy. If we automatically teched in place every time we hit the ground a large portion of the game would be lost and Captain falcon would be a lot higher on the tier list. If everything was auto-cancelled at a faster speed then there are significantly less changes to the metagame.

 

[Radiowar]

I'm saying there's more depth to it than pressing the button. Pressing l/r with the correct timing is watering it down. Basically I don't agree with the analogy. If we automatically teched in place every time we hit the ground a large portion of the game would be lost and Captain falcon would be a lot higher on the tier list. If everything was auto-cancelled at a faster speed then there are significantly less changes to the metagame.

well, i'm not suggesting that the equivalent of an auto-cancel is an auto-tech in place. i would view the act of teching as independent of the roll/getup/walljump option, the same way i would view falco's l-cancelled dair as independent from a follow-up shine. which is to say that the tech is fundamentally concerned with cancelling the animation caused by hitting the ground mid-tumble, just as the l-cancel is fundamentally concerned with cancelling the animation caused by hitting the ground mid-aerial. from that perspective, both l-cancelling and teching are simply the mechanics that make other options available in the first place, and the only difference is their context (l-cancelling for offense, teching for defense).

as to whether or not the absence of l-cancelling would make "significant changes"...it seems like the arguments against l-cancelling are contradictory: either l-cancelling is too hard, and presents an unreasonable technical barrier to new players, or l-cancelling is too easy, and largely inconsequential to the way the game is played.

 

[thespymachine]

I know I'm sort of budging in here randomly, but I do want to make a categorical distinction here (especially in reference to NalsXR's posts).

Let's consider 'sport' as 'organized competition in order to determine a winner/loser.'
You have athletic sports that rely heavily on physical ability (see: technical skill) as the basis of skill [this means sports like baseball, world football, 100m sprint, etc].
You have... let's call them 'sit down sports' where the competition is heavily reliant on mental ability [things like chess, go, poker, etc].

In each category you have varying degrees of physical and mental necessity. For example: 1) 100m sprint is like 99% physical, 1% mental (if that) - there is no 'mental game' going on in sprinting, you just have to outrun the other person/people; 2) tennis is like 75% physical, 25% mental (the percentages could be argued, obviously, but there is a clear metagame [using this term as 'game within a game'] that is meant to play mindgames with your opponent); 3) martial arts can be pretty close to 50-50

The point I'm trying to get to is that video games rely on player input in order for anything to happen, which is physical. And if there is no physical skill needed in a video game, what is the point of playing a video game competitively? I'm sure there are plenty of other things that require no physical skill and have just as much mental depth as Melee (Go, perhaps?).
And since fighting games (especially Melee) have complex movement and spacing within it, we are bound by, in some degree, physical skills that must be mastered in order to provide sufficient/efficient movement. Fighting games are like the martial arts of competitive video games (obviously enough, lol) where the physical and mental are quite nearly balanced.

Also, the argument against L-cancelling asking "why do we limit techskill and just make jump a three-button sequence?" can be turned on itself by suggesting that we could make the inputs more simple, but why stop at doing auto-l-cancelling? How about every time you press attack you KO the opponent - very simple right?
I'm sure my satire makes the point. If not, let me explain.
Jumping is a very basic movement within the game. Putting a techskill threshold to jump would put every person starting the game at a skill that where jump isn't usable - limiting beginner gameplay to below that of basic movement. L-cancelling is not a basic movement, it only becomes needed to 'deepen' your gameplay (ie, make spacing walls, punish opponents, combo, etc). Making jump a three button sequence is like making an attack a three button sequence; while l-cancelling as a aerial-attack subtlety is like short-hopping and fastfalling are subtleties inherent in jumping.
Oversimplifying things, like making all attacks (regardless of position/situation) KO your opponent, make the game trivial and not worth playing (worse than tic-tac-toe).

 

[Vkrm]

L canceling would be a more compelling feature if the timing was more strict. Personally I see it more of a feat of execution instead of it being a choice between if you want lag or not, which is a mad obvious choice. So in that sense it doesn't really add much to the decision making aspect. I wouldn't go as far to say it adds no depth, but the depth it adds would still be there if we cut the lag on all aerials across the board. Still not a bad mechanic. Makes the game more engaging.

 

[Blea Gelo]

I just needed to read the first post to say, it is obvious it adds depth

 

[Bones0]

I think people are too quick to discredit the focus L-cancelling demands. When a player in Melee aerials, he has to focus on his momentum prior to jumping, the timing of his jump, how high he jumps, how he DIs after his jump, aerial timing, FF timing (if at all), and L-cancelling. You also have to consider how all of this will interact with your opponent due to hitlag, a surprising lack of hitlag (if they dodge), shielding mechanics, etc. With this laundry list of things to focus on, why is L-cancelling in there? What purpose does it serve?

L-cancelling forces players to focus on how they will land. They must know, to varying degrees, what will occur in the next few frames of interaction in order to land successfully. If your opponent dodges, you have to react to that and L-cancel earlier. If they get hit or shield, you have to adjust for both of those timings. If you want to FF, you have to pay attention to when you hit their shield in order to land properly. Now of course, most people would be quick to point out that really good players can do this on a consistent basis. However, just because good players can do something consistently doesn't mean it is a pointless mechanic. Even the best players still have to focus to land their L-cancels. In fact, I would bet that the reason most mid and low level players miss L-cancels is because they weren't focusing on it. The variables I listed above don't disappear when you reach a certain skill level. Better players are simply more used to making those L-cancel timing adjustments so it doesn't feel like they are focusing as much even if they are focusing on it way more than the random newbies who completely forget about L-cancelling half the time, or the mid-level players who mess up their FF, and consequently their L-cancel, because an opponent ran up to them and shielded at an unexpected time.

There are also some people who realize that there is a decent amount of depth with L-cancelling, but they simply feel like we should sacrifice that depth to make the game more newb-friendly. This argument is, to me, absolutely ludicrous. L-cancelling could be automatic and newbs would still get wrecked out of their minds. The game wouldn't be any more fun, only slightly less overwhelming (and I do mean slightly). DDing, WDing, SHing, FFing, JCing, etc. are all hard enough in their own rights to make players quit. I doubt players have been pushed over the edge by one more advanced tactic, especially one as simple (not EASY, but SIMPLE) as L-cancelling. I also think there are plenty of players who have been drawn MORE into the game by L-cancelling as opposed to being driven away. I know because I was one of them. I remember learning L-cancelling and wanting to master it because it was just plain fun. I enjoyed the rhythm of the game. I enjoyed the thrill of finally landing a cool combo that I had worked tirelessly at with all the moving parts and elements, which included L-cancelling. Even after all these years, I still enjoy Melee's rhythm and the adrenaline pumping through my veins when I fly across the screen with precise L-cancels. I don't view it as some detached tech-barrier chore that gets in the way of the real game. I view it as another way Melee immerses its players into the game. Every delicate stick movement, every minute button timing, every split-second trigger click: they all add up to a feeling of total control, even if it's controlling something as subtle as the amount of lag on your aerial.

 

[Nicco]

Of course it adds depth! Not only is it a skill you need to learn, but it is one of the things that make Melee so special.

Do you think JC'd grabs don't add depth?

When I started out, L-canceling was one of the things that really interested me. If Melee had automatic L-canceling, I'd rather play 64