Knowing your Nana!

Sieguest

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#1
Things always seem to happen when I should be asleep lol. Anyway, Lux came to me with a question concerning Nana and I decided to look into it and this thread is just showing what I've confirmed. Having an awareness of how Nana behave may help you come up with a few more creative ways to spice up your game a little.


A little something about Nana
Most of you know about the buffering mechanic in this game, if you don't then buffering is basically inputting the commands for another action as the character finishes performing an action they are currently executing. Once the character finishes execution of their current action then they will perform the action you input on the first available frame they can take action. Most people generally recognize buffering as going from one attack to another or from attack->shield or vice versa, but notice how the definition includes "action" and not "attack". The reason for this is because you buffer things out of walking and dashing too. If Nana somehow is separated from you and you hold the b button, then once Nana returns to sync range and receives the input she will fire off an ice block. Buffering explains that little tidbit which is pretty important later on in this post.




The Four Stages of Nana
The way Nana behaves can be categorized into four categories. There is the "normal" state, the "separated" state, the "recovery" state, and the "distressed" state. The way Nana behave in each is very distinct. This thread will explain the details associated with each stage.


Normal State
The normal state is the most simple and the one most of you are already very well acquainted with, this is when Nana is under your control and will accept the inputs you give her. Your goal as an ICs player should be to keep Nana in this state (whether synced or desynced) as much as possible as this allows you to use Nana to effectively set up traps, apply pressure, and tack on damage.

Separated State
Most players are also familiar with the separated state. Nana goes into this state whenever she has by some way or another, become distanced from Popo. In this state, Nana's priority is to return to Popo as quickly as possible. This however causes a problem, it's easy for opponents to take advantage of how Nana has prioritized in this state. Since her focus is on Popo, Nana's AI is completely oblivious to your opponents actions. All an opponent has to do is charge an fsmash in her path or throw out any sort of move as she comes near them and knock her away and even chase her which could lead to her very untimely demise, leaving you in a horrible situation. To facilitate exiting this state, you as a player may either try and get past the opponent and get to Nana as soon as you can, or go after your opponent and keep them busy until Nana returns to you.

Recovery State
Again, most ICs are familiar with Nana's recovery state as well. When Nana is knocked offstage without Popo she enters this state. As she comes towards the stage she will shoot IBs to cover her coming in and on occasion if an opponent goes out to edgeguard her she will attempt to airdodge through them. Her priority in this state is survival although she will still head towards Popo. Once Nana is reasonably safe from offstage danger she will go back to her separated state. If Popo happens to be knocked offstage on the same side as Nana at a later time, Nana will exit from the recovery state and go into the separated state.

Distressed State
This is the state that a good majority of IC players do not know too much about in detail, and the state that Lux asked me about. Nana enters the distressed state whenever Popo becomes incapacitated. Times when a character is incapacitated include when they are KO'd, during their "flying away" animation of being Star KO'd, during their "hit the screen" animation during a foreground KO, and whenever a character is frozen, planted, or being held in a grab. When Nana enters a distressed state the AI for Nana takes over and all player inputs are ignored, even when Nana is within the sync range. Nana's priority at this point is to protect Popo from taking any more damage, or in the case of Popo being KO'd to tack on as much damage as possible before disappearing. Either way, her focus is on her opponent (although there is a difference). Now this state may seem the most useless, but the mechanics behind it may actually lend itself to a way of fighting your opponent. As stated earlier, Nana ignores all player input even when in sync range. The only exceptions to this rule are buffered inputs. If you buffer an input then Nana will perform the action you input after she finishes the AI input's action. If you remember from the intro, when Nana enters sync range, if you are holding a button the game actually buffers that input in.

If Nana happens to be knocked away and then say Popo is grabbed, when Nana runs back into sync range, whatever input you're holding is what Nana will perform. The only problem is that this is under four conditions:

1. Nana cannot be performing another action besides walking or dashing when she enters sync range. If the AI has already input an attack or shield input, then the input you are holding will not be buffered in upon Nana reaching sync range.

2. Nana must not be in the air, no player inputs are accepted by the CPU whenever she is in the air.

3. The opponent must be between you and Nana, otherwise Nana will not receive your inputs even if in Popo's sync range.

4. Smash, grab, jump, squall, and directional inputs (unless being used in conjunction with the special button) cannot be what you are trying buffer in to Nana, for some reason the game doesn't register these inputs even if condition 3 is met.

Now how is this of use to you? Knowing how Nana behaves in each of her states may help you formulate creative ways to take on your opponents. For example if you know that Nana accepts inputs from you whenever your opponent is between the two of you and you are incapacitated then you can hold a special (that isn't squall) and once Nana gets into sync range she will do it, this may lead to you getting a grab or at least tacking on some nice damage. One other thing to note is that when Nana is in a "distressed" state and you are trying to make something of it, the last thing you want to do is hold the attack button whenever she is coming towards (provided the four conditions are met), because doing so will cause her to dash attack in the direction opposite she was running AKA away from you and the opponent which is your opponent's ticket to free ****.

That is all for now.
Credits to EA for preliminary information to use as a springboard.

 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#2
We need more definitive information on the following situation:

Nana - Separated Space of say 25+ IGUs - Grabbed Popo - Opponent

Given that both of the predominant playstyles of ICs lend themselves towards this situation, it's probably going to be the most useful to get info on
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#3
You know whats really funny?

Everytime my Nana gets separated and the opponent charges a Smash to intercept her..she JUMPS over them EVERY TIME. rofl. My friend legit rages ehen this happens.

Good read EA.
 

Sieguest

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#4
We need more definitive information on the following situation:

Nana - Separated Space of say 25+ IGUs - Grabbed Popo - Opponent

Given that both of the predominant playstyles of ICs lend themselves towards this situation, it's probably going to be the most useful to get info on
If Nana is outside of sync range, then it's up to the AI to decide what she does. Then it falls to condition 3 when she does enter sync range. Since the opponent is not between you and Nana, your inputs are ignored. I do have a few ideas as to Nana's differences in behavior depending on the opponent's positioning, but I'm having to do a lot more testing on that. More on that will come soon. One thing I've picked up on today is that if Popo is grabbed while Nana is getting up from hitting the ground or coming up from the ledge, she has a tendency to shoot an IB this applies to whenever the opponent is between Nana and Popo as well as when Nana is on the same side as Popo relative to the opponent.
You know whats really funny?

Everytime my Nana gets separated and the opponent charges a Smash to intercept her..she JUMPS over them EVERY TIME. rofl. My friend legit rages ehen this happens.

Good read EA.
-dead-

On a serious note, do you happen to know where you were when Nana was coming back towards you? Were you in the air, running towards Nana or any sort of thing like that?
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#5
@ Tech: Guest is not EA

@ Guest: By definitive information I meant finding a way to work around the problem you mentioned. I don't like the idea that we're screwed if the opponent grabs us when we're synced or on the same as Nana
 

Smoom77

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#6
I read it when you first posted. Honestly, I have nothing to add and think you did a great job. This would be worthy for a sticky.
 

Rubberbandman

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#7
Also note that Shield Break does not place nana in her distressed state, she stays in her normal state. I have no idea why though.

Good read though, just a question or two at ya. By:
"3. The opponent must be between you and Nana, otherwise Nana will not receive your inputs even if in Popo's sync range."

Do you mean that the situation must be at least

(Nana) (Enemy)(Popo)
===============

during the distressed state? Also, do you have a list of all things possible to cause distress state? That would be helpful.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#8
Omg I know that E_Alert isn't Guest I have no idea why I posted that. I think I just saw EA's name somewhere else and assumed he did this for some reason LOL

Also on that serious note in the scenario I describe, I am always on the ground and the opponent is in between Popo and Nana trying to intercept her as she runs back to me (she is on the ground also)

I don't buffer any commands, she always does this on her own where he sees a charged smash and jumps every single time. I could try to record it if you want.
 

Sieguest

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#11
Also note that Shield Break does not place nana in her distressed state, she stays in her normal state. I have no idea why though.
I've no idea either, since the time I made that post I've been looking into Nana's behavior a lot more, the only explanation I can think of is that Popo being "dazed" is not something directly induced by an opponent. You'll notice that the states that Popo is in to be considered incapacitated for Nana all are a state directly done to Popo by the opponent (outside of being KO'd).

What I mean by "directly induced" is that the altered state Popo is put into is caused by a property of the opponent's move. Getting your shield broken isn't a property of an opponent's move (And before anyone mentions it: Marth's shield breaker doesn't count either, one of the properties of the move is increased shield damage, not shield breaking)

Good read though, just a question or two at ya. By:
"3. The opponent must be between you and Nana, otherwise Nana will not receive your inputs even if in Popo's sync range."

Do you mean that the situation must be at least

(Nana) (Enemy)(Popo)
===============

during the distressed state?
Exactly!
Also, do you have a list of all things possible to cause distress state? That would be helpful.
*Being KO'd (time varies depending on how you were KO'd)
*Being planted (DK's headbutt when you're on the ground)
*Being Frozen (Ice blocks at a certain percent and Blizzard)
*Being held in a grab

Omg I know that E_Alert isn't Guest I have no idea why I posted that. I think I just saw EA's name somewhere else and assumed he did this for some reason LOL
I gave credit to EA at the bottom of my OP for giving me some information on the priority the game places on buffered inputs and the AI inputs, so that's probably where you got confused. x.x


Also on that serious note in the scenario I describe, I am always on the ground and the opponent is in between Popo and Nana trying to intercept her as she runs back to me (she is on the ground also)

I don't buffer any commands, she always does this on her own where he sees a charged smash and jumps every single time. I could try to record it if you want.
o.o Interesting, the reason I'm interested is because I always hear other players complaining about Nana running into charged stuff when she is returning to them. I have small inkling as to why due to what I've looked at over my last absence.

We need more definitive information on the following situation:

Nana - Separated Space of say 25+ IGUs - Grabbed Popo - Opponent

Given that both of the predominant playstyles of ICs lend themselves towards this situation, it's probably going to be the most useful to get info on
This has been my main focus over the past few days. It still seems more often than not Nana ignores the held player input, what I'm trying to do now is just buffer something else and see if she does that after her first attack (the only issue is hoping she doesn't hit the opponent with the AI input and cause them to drop the grab). I also plan on sticking in a third dummy character so that the placement would be like this:

<nana>-----<dummy character>-----<Popo>-<enemy>

just to see how she behaves then. After that I'll most likely have more to tell.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#13
I'm going to have record this because unless the window where she attempts to jump after is me is ridiculously longer than I thought there's still no real explanation. I'm not jumping when this happens. Like I'm totally grounded during this entire scenario lol.

:phone:
 

Sieguest

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#14
Digging deeper...

Okay... after more testing, running by skype, getting delayed by "school about to start" shenanigans and a final bit of testing to ensure I'm not crazy and to make a clarification. You may now know a bit more about why Nana does what she does when distressed.

Whenever Nana becomes distressed, enemies gain a field that Nana reacts to (this may explain why Nana may go for the character not grabbing in a doubles match sometimes). It is this field in which Nana accepts the first input a player buffers in by holding the desired input (provided it still follows what rules were established earlier about what inputs will be performed).

Testing method (So anyone may replicate it if they wish for whatever reason) :
(Nana)----(Dummy Character)-----(Popo and Grabbing character) The testing is difficult because you have to make sure that Nana doesn't go through any disruptions such as pratfalling or faceplanting, or ledge grabbing. I've had the most success avoiding this by using MK bthrow and DK's down option from the fthrow carry. Although you can input and hold the command in once the disruption is over. The start button also works as well (which is something I used to help stabilize things)

A few notes:
Inputs held when Nana is getting up from faceplanting or pratfalling will not be buffered in upon entering enemy range. This is because Nana consistently throws out Ice Blocks. The same is true for Nana getting off from a ledge. I suppose the reason why is because Nana re-prioritizes who to attack. How she does so I don't have a clue. Afterwards though you can begin to hold your input.

It was also brought to my attention that holding a button encourages Nana to use attacks associated with that button. (Such as holding "b" makes Nana perform more specials and such) That is not true. Nana's actions past the one buffered input that you can guarantee in the correct conditions are totally uninfluenced by the player. I've gone through enough failed setups to know that for sure.

Whenever Nana comes into range of Popo before an opponent when distressed Nana will attempt to put a hitbox where Popo is at, this is a blessing and a curse. Continually doing this may result in Nana missing multiple times before actually getting an attack out that hits the opponent. Blessing in that if Popo is planted, Nana will get at someone who then thinks they don't need to space anymore. This also means that Nana should more often than not hit Falco if he's dthrow CGing Popo.

Still don't have a legitimate way of testing if Nana will accept another buffered input past the first one because most of the time whether AI or player followed, Nana knocks the opponent from the grab before my next input has an opportunity to be used.

That's about it for now.
 

nekokatsu

Smash Apprentice
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#15
Sorry to revive this topic, but in my comunitty http://www.smashbroschile.com, we are disscussing something about IC... we have this situation:

GW grabs POPO, so... whats happens next?

- Nana enters distressed MODE and IA take control?
- Nana enters D Mode and go back to Sync inmediatly cuz she was never out of sync range.
- Nana stay in Sync cuz she was never out of sync.

This discussion started cuz i main GW and another player Main IC, and i said to him, now im going to grab u and destroy u, and he said to me, bah, GW grab has a slow animation, every time u grab me is a free smash.

And when i grabbed him it was always a free smash, altough i dont remember if i grabbed NANA or POPO, if i grabbed NANA it explain the smash, if i grabbed POPO i doesnt, unless IA took control over NANA and Smashed.

What do u think?.
 

DeLux

@ChaseTheLux
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#16
One of Nana's more common responses to Popo getting grabbed from an AI standpoint is to smash attack. Now if you pummeled Nana away and threw, things might be different.
 

swordgard

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#17
If Nana is outside of sync range, then it's up to the AI to decide what she does. Then it falls to condition 3 when she does enter sync range. Since the opponent is not between you and Nana, your inputs are ignored. I do have a few ideas as to Nana's differences in behavior depending on the opponent's positioning, but I'm having to do a lot more testing on that. More on that will come soon. One thing I've picked up on today is that if Popo is grabbed while Nana is getting up from hitting the ground or coming up from the ledge, she has a tendency to shoot an IB this applies to whenever the opponent is between Nana and Popo as well as when Nana is on the same side as Popo relative to the opponent.


-dead-

On a serious note, do you happen to know where you were when Nana was coming back towards you? Were you in the air, running towards Nana or any sort of thing like that?
Nvm, accidently necroed a thread.
 
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