Kirby is taboo among higher level smashers? (now with cpt falcon discussion)

[Box_of_Fox]

Gustav do you know what a pikachu's uptilt is?

Its what happens before you find yourself 3 stock below a decent pikachu.

Pikachu's combos aren't standardized series of actions (like falcon) or an endless series of dairs, tippers and reset-moves (fox), but more a series of actions that work themselves off an edge or toward a wall.

Furthermore, pikachu's edgegaurding and recovery are certainly a factor in his supposed "tier placement". He can chase opponents far from the edge and return safely, with a good up-B + "after-Up-B floating". His up-B also allows him more opportunities to beat his opponent's edgeguard, and he won't die to low % spikes.

His attacks are good as well. Uair is just such an unfair attack. It can be used in combos, it can be used as an edgegaurd, it can be used to save oneself after DIing out a combo, it can be used to beat an opponent's aerial (due to its speed), the list goes ooonnn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD92fIkAAok

 

[jayrico]

I really do not see pika as a noob character since being good with pika is much harder than being good with kirby. IMO its harder to learn pikas aerial combos than Falcon's and Mario's.

Box of Fox you forgot to mention pika's strong throw and high priority fair.

 

[Winston]

Gustav do you know what a pikachu's uptilt is?

Its what happens before you find yourself 3 stock below a decent pikachu.

Pikachu's combos aren't standardized series of actions (like falcon) or an endless series of dairs, tippers and reset-moves (fox), but more a series of actions that work themselves off an edge or toward a wall.

Furthermore, pikachu's edgegaurding and recovery are certainly a factor in his supposed "tier placement". He can chase opponents far from the edge and return safely, with a good up-B + "after-Up-B floating". His up-B also allows him more opportunities to beat his opponent's edgeguard, and he won't die to low % spikes.

His attacks are good as well. Uair is just such an unfair attack. It can be used in combos, it can be used as an edgegaurd, it can be used to save oneself after DIing out a combo, it can be used to beat an opponent's aerial (due to its speed), the list goes ooonnn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD92fIkAAok

I've seen isai vids of pika, but that's isai. This thread was originally made because I never do play any pikachus that can combo me and 3-stock me. Boomfan and jaimehr's pikas were much worse than their mario, falcon, and foxes.

Box, what do you go as on emularena? I go as Winston. I wanna play you, and if you have a good pika, I'd like to get 3 stocked =) hasn't happened in too long, not by a pika, anyway. (Falcons and foxes and marios beat me a lot lol)

 

[Box_of_Fox]

I don't think you can simply denounce Pikachu's tier-placement simply because my provided examples tend to include the best-of-the-best. If one cannot find a non-Isai amazing pikachu, that doesn't mean pikachu isn't top tier. In fact, that's one of the reasons I'm betting people find Falcon more appealling-- his combos aren't "impossible" to perform, and due to his speed on the ground, he's more subject to a playstyle focused on mindgames preceding those combos.

My pikachu would be as good as boom's if I weren't using a keyboard-- I can't perform standing uptilts and the dropping Nair --> falling Uair edgeguard that gave him the edge (that was a bad pun, I know). We played a ditto about a week ago, the last match he beat me with one stock left, I had gotten ahead early and he caught back up. When you play his Pikachu you can tell it isn't his main, but he's still very good with it.

I'm Box of Fox online as well, you might catch me on but recently I became addicted to Sword of the New World beta.

 

[Wenbobular]

I almost never get to play good Pikas or Kirbies. Most of them I can Fair/Bair combo around the map with Fox multiple Fair/Bair to Usmash is fun beans.

 

[Winston]

If one cannot find a non-Isai amazing pikachu, that doesn't mean pikachu isn't top tier.

Doesn't it though? Isai's link is quite amazing, so what's up with link's tier placement then?

Okay, so kirby and pikachu may be top tier, I'm perfectly willing to concede that. I'm satisfied with this thread and the answers I got to the original question.

So to conclude and sum up what I've learned from this thread:

1). Kirby is easy and a noob level and not that hard at a high level, but really boring to play.
2). Pika is easy at a noob level and pretty hard at a (mediumly) high level when fox and falcon can combo him ridiculously, but he's probably top tier anyway.
3). Falcon is easy, and fun, and I can't win an argument about his tier position, so yeah =P
4). SSB tiers are much more poorly defined than SSBM tiers, due to smaller sample size and extreme stratification of skill levels (there's the isai level, then the boom/johnny/other insanely good players level, and the rest of us). And unlike the ssbm tier list, which most people agree is based on how well characters fare in a tournament environment in the current metagame, nobody agrees on what the ssb one should be >__>

BTW I'd feel much more comfortable arguing points with someone whom I've played online before

 

[Box_of_Fox]

I think I'd be willing to argue that if Isai could clone himself, his own Pikachu would beat his other own characters. And perhaps that's a reason why Pikachu is top tier.

I wasn't aware that fox and falco could "combo pikachu ridiculously", they can "combo any character ridiculously" just as they can be "ridiculously comboed by any other character".

I'm glad the tiers are less defined than in melee. It means characters are more equal.

 

[Wenbobular]

Mainly because in SSB, there's combos that don't just last for about 3 hits. I mean, people like Darkrain pull off some killer combos, but a lot of it is like matchups, weird stuff like shine combos, and bad DI.

 

[Winston]

Hey BOF (what should I call you?)... seeing as how we're both on the boards right now... wanna throw down in ssb? ^___^

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I think I'd be willing to argue that if Isai could clone himself, his own Pikachu would beat his other own characters. And perhaps that's a reason why Pikachu is top tier.

I wasn't aware that fox and falco could "combo pikachu ridiculously", they can "combo any character ridiculously" just as they can be "ridiculously comboed by any other character".

I'm glad the tiers are less defined than in melee. It means characters are more equal.

space animals?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

 

[Box_of_Fox]

Everyone makes mistakes boom. Chya'll knew what I ment.

And winston next time I'm on i'll search for you. Maybe if I can stop myself from rolling musketeers on Sword of the New World beta o.o

 

[yoshi_fan]

Falcon isnt enjoyable for me. I only play Picachu, Yoshi and Jiggs (a bit of Falcon and a bit of ness), and.. well i can combo with falcon sometimes 0 to death (very rarely), but... whats the point on doing the same again and again...

With the others i have to think what i should, see movements and other things... with falcon is usmash and uairs to upb to death (in most cases)

 

[_kSo_]

... with falcon is usmash and uairs to upb to death (in most cases)

false. Captain falcon has many other moves which are used in higher level play that continue to combo accurately and efficiently. Some examples are fair, reverse bair, utilt, reverse fair, nair, falcon kick, and probably a few more resets and such. as far as finishers, up b isnt the only one. you've got your choices of bair, nair, falcon punch, or even a falcon kick.

I HAVE noticed that you said "in most cases" in parentheses, however, I would have to disagree. The combos that are z2d are "in most cases" NOT the uair + up B combos. In fact, that combo is one of the only ones that most likely will NOT kill your opponent. Therefore, high level falcon players tend to do unique stuff to rack up the % to make the kill. The most basic falcon combo that is a z2d is fthrow-fair-fthrow-uair-dair. In addition to that, there is fthrow-fair-fthrow-fair-uair-upb. These are falcon "staple" combos. Most all other combos branch off these two principles. And of course the best one of all, fthrow-falcon punch.

not many people see the uniqueness of play in a lot of high level falcon players. everyone always thinks that "oh hes just upsmash, uair all day long." False. Captain Falcon is miscontrued as a 'textbook' combo-er. I have to say that if you look past the first level of falcon play, CF has a lot of room to be unique. (not as unique as some other characters, but much much more unique than most people think)

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I learned how to do Uair combos waaay before Fair combos

 

[bjdavis420]

Kso has gotten it exactly right, IMO. You have different level CF players, some that can incorporate nearly every aerial and attack that CF has in their game, and then you have the lesser level CF, that go for fthrow-uair-uair-upb nearly everytime. I know this because about 2 weeks ago (when I first started playing online) I WAS one of these players. I could do ok against anyone, except another falcons, and they would either 0-death, or just beat the crap out of me in general. The difference btwn higher level and lower level falcon players is much greater than nearly any other character (IMO) because CF can combo himself relentlessly (I realize he can ALSO combo other players relentlessly, but I think that his weight and fall speed make him the MOST succeptible to his own combos), and if you are a lower level CF, then you are going to get caught in 0-death combos constantly.

As far as Mario goes, yeah I agree with Dylan, im freakin awful with Mario. He is a hard player to master, and when I am playing other good marios, he toggles my world (that freakin headbutt, gets me everytime). I am just learning how to finally pull of the dair-uair combo, and Dylan_Tnga, I saw that you were askin about it, so i will just let you know what i have found out (its not much, but maybe it will help). You have to start the drill as soon as u jump, and dont fast fall....Haha, sorry, thats all i got. Hopefully it helps, and if Im wrong then someone correct me, because I do want to get better with Mario, its just not coming along that easily.

 

[_kSo_]

dair-uair combo easier with luigi. Too bad hes lower on the tier list. I swear if luigi's fireballs didn't defy gravity, he'd be up there with mario on the tier list.

 

[cmasterchoe]

I swear if luigi's fireballs didn't defy gravity, he'd be up there with mario on the tier list.

Luigi as a whole defies gravity. Sir Isaac Newton actually met his death when luigi dair-zcancel-upB and then said "gravity that b*tch".

To bjdavis, in order to pull of the dair-uair combo, what you have to do is shorthop at STANDSTILL. you cannot be running while you do it, if you watch isai's vids carefully he does the combo from standing.

 

[Winston]

KSO, you know, what you're saying is true that you CAN be flashier and more interesting with falcon if you like, but the bread and butter upair stuff WILL win you matches if you don't care. I can win falcon dittos with that janx if its not laggy >__>

Of course I get ***** by boomfan and similarly amazing players, but that's not mostly because of their fair combos, but actually because they land the first hit more often. First hit = combo = death, doesn't matter if you're using "boring" upair stuff or the cool, fairs, falcon kicks, bairs, grabs, falcon punch stuff.

Oh, and its a lot harder if you play someone who DIs well.... (lol the person who I usually play with switches grips and uses his right hand to mash the control stick to DI when I start uair combos... ^__^)

 

[M3tr01D]

Kso has gotten it exactly right, IMO. You have different level CF players, some that can incorporate nearly every aerial and attack that CF has in their game, and then you have the lesser level CF, that go for fthrow-uair-uair-upb nearly everytime.

So you're calling me a bad falcon? Cause pretty much all I do is spam uair combos.

 

[_kSo_]

KSO, you know, what you're saying is true that you CAN be flashier and more interesting with falcon if you like, but the bread and butter upair stuff WILL win you matches if you don't care. I can win falcon dittos with that janx if its not laggy >__>

Of course I get ***** by boomfan and similarly amazing players, but that's not mostly because of their fair combos, but actually because they land the first hit more often. First hit = combo = death, doesn't matter if you're using "boring" upair stuff or the cool, fairs, falcon kicks, bairs, grabs, falcon punch stuff.

Oh, and its a lot harder if you play someone who DIs well.... (lol the person who I usually play with switches grips and uses his right hand to mash the control stick to DI when I start uair combos... ^__^)

i like flashy combos

and fair and reverse bair is useful too at keeping the combo going. on flat ground with no platforms, you can only do uair so many times.

and m3tr01d no that is not what they/we meant. i'm sure your falcon is amazing

 

[Wenbobular]

Falcon is all a matter of style. I've pricked Winston for being unflashy, but his Falcon is pretty good considering his relative lack of Fair combos and shorthops. Besides, there's no flat place anyways besides Hyrule, and even then you have the gigantic Falcon staircase of doom straight up the tower.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I use uair to its maximum value!

who needs fair

 

[bjdavis420]

So you're calling me a bad falcon? Cause pretty much all I do is spam uair combos.

No way , definetly not saying you have a bad Falcon. I was just trying to make the point that yes, you can spam fair, upsmash, and uair all day long with falcon, but you can also incorporate many other moves into a good falcon as well. I was just making the point that a great falcon can incorporate nearly as many moves and techs (notice i said nearly) as a great fox.

Cmasterchoe, thanks for the advice on Mario...I never noticed that before, so I will have to give that a try.

 

[_kSo_]

bjdavis where do you work that you can get paid to sit on your *** and play smash? i want your job...

 

[bjdavis420]

haha, yeah, Im an intern at a research center, so supposedly im doing research online all day long, and suppose to be compiling some paper, or something like that...Place is publicly funded, so absolutely nothing ever gets done around here.

 

[Thino]

lets say there are original falcons and boring falcons

 

[_kSo_]

lets say there are original falcons and boring falcons

that's a good way to put it. or we could say we have "textbook combo-ers" or "combo artists"

bjdavis - i'm also at an internship, but i only have time for internet stuff like facebook or smashboards. if i were to play smash online...well i dunno. i've already been playing pokemon on an emulator for the past 2 weeks

 

[bjdavis420]

Haha, nice kso, yeah, I had this same internship last summer, and I didnt do much (facebook, smashboards a little, etc) Then i found kaillera, but I was never could bring a controller in b/c everyone could see my desk. Now I have an office near the back, where no one is, so i just brought a usb port and N64 controller to work a few weeks ago, its been great. I think im goin to have to take them back home though because i seriously cant get any work done with them around.

 

[cmasterchoe]

Now I have an office near the back, where no one is, so i just brought a usb port and N64 controller to work a few weeks ago, its been great. I think im goin to have to take them back home though because i seriously cant get any work done with them around.

PWAHAHAHA thats friggin awesome, i'm stuck in this stupid Introduction to MATLAB class for summer school and i sit in the back, so thats why all my posts are usually between 11 AM and 1 PM. Now if i could hack windows NT to setting up kaillera......

 

[_kSo_]

Can't you bring a laptop to college courses? well i guess if its MATLAB then no lol

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

The thing about Kirby is that he isn't has combo themed as the more popular high tier characters. He's mostly about over-prioritizing and out-manuevering his opponents due to sheer versatility.

Hover spikes FTW!

 

[jayrico]

PWAHAHAHA thats friggin awesome, i'm stuck in this stupid Introduction to MATLAB class for summer school and i sit in the back, so thats why all my posts are usually between 11 AM and 1 PM. Now if i could hack windows NT to setting up kaillera......

I took a MATLAB class and did not like it one bit. and forgot everything about.

 

[_kSo_]

LOL it's like the forensic science class i took last year

but back on topic, thats true that kirby doesnt have many combos (well if you spam utilt you can get a combo going...) but he IS the most prioritized character in the game. fox ain't got nothin on THIS SHlT

 

[cmasterchoe]

Can't you bring a laptop to college courses? well i guess if its MATLAB then no lol

I wish i could, but it doesn't help that its class of like 20, and it tends to be very very quiet... i smash my controller around a lot so ... yeah...

 

[7ak]

Every character can be extremely gay/cheap, thats the essence of SSB64:

Mario: d-air>u-air to 80-90% or KO on a lot of chars., wallthrow combos.
Luigi: up-B KO's at 50-60% or even 40% on light chars.
DK: Throw trap, gay grabs in general.
Ness: DJC to KO or shield break.
Falcon: F-throw combos, upsmash, up-air combos, DD grabs.
Pika: Throws are crazy, combo potential, priority, edgeguarding.
Kirby: Insane priority, ridiculous spike and d-air and uptilt.
Fox: O-KO combos, up-smash KO at low %, priority+range.

Hell even Link has ridiculous projectiles and priority he can spam all day long. I personally think Pika is the best char. at a high level and he's fun to play unlike Kirby. I also don't feel dirty getting a good combo or KO with Pika unlike with Falcon or Luigi. Wow with Falcon.....d-air, grab, f-throw, f-air, upsmash, up-air, up-air, etc. up-B, edgeguard and KO.............or wow with Luigi grab, f-throw against a wall, f-throw, f-throw, up-smash, then get in an up-B and KO at 50-60%....that kinda stuff just feels so cheap. But nothing feels as cheap as Kirby d-air, up-tilt X 5, f-smash.......yaaaay.

For me the fun of SSB is doing some new combo on the spot with Link, Fox or Pika and thinking..........wow that was cool. Instead of "ummmmm I will camp with Falcon until I get a grab, then I'll do a boring upsmash, up-air combo, edgeguard and get the KO". I can't wait till Brawl comes out and hopefully it will be more like Melee and have less gay combos. I like SSB but sometimes you gotta admit it can be cheap.

 

[M3tr01D]

I like SSB but sometimes you gotta admit it can be cheap.

Why do I have to admit that the game is cheap when it isn't?

 

[_kSo_]

7ak the game isnt cheap, you probably just have friends that you play with who are just really cheap players. SSB isn't cheap unless the player is cheap. that goes for every game so...yea

 

[Rupus]

His question has been answered, and this is just being used for spam.