Social King K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: This...Is Our Finest Hour!

[Enchess]

He’s not being “wiped out”. That continues the ill-informed narrative that Nintendo purposefully removed him. Technically his last game appearance was 10 years ago as himself, but he also had a trophy in both Smash Wii U and 3DS that referred to him as “To DK as Bowser is to Mario” in all languages.

Retro likely didn’t understand his popularity and decided not to use him. Don’t fall into the trap we used to. We used to theorize they’d never add the DKC trilogy to the VC because they’re trying to erase the Kremlings. A year or so later, they dropped all 3 on the Wii U VC, as well as Donkey Kong Land’s trilogy which hadn’t ever been re-released since the early 90s.

DK64 also appeared on the Wii U virtual console and this was a big deal. Don’t underestimate the power of ports bringing things back to relevance.

Kremlings appeared in Smash Run *alongside* Tikis, despite the latter being “relevant”. And the Mii costume used newly created HD assets for his iconic appearance that hasn’t been seen in decades.

Not to mention, he got referenced in Mario Odyssey, unlike the more relevant, recent DK villains.

Besides, relevance is hardly a factor when Sakurai continually talks about wanting to add Geno.

Even with Retro, I don't think it's even that they aren't aware of the popularity. They just like making their own mark. I feel like that's the reason Mother Brain wasn't in Prime or Echoes, but then after they established their own piece of the Metroid universe they brought in the brain computer things that could relate to Mother Brain in Corruption.

 

[Banjodorf]

To explain, Palutena and Shulk were both in recent games, so even if the general public didn’t know them, then they can go pick up the titles they were in with ease, maybe not Xenoblade for Wii but it got a 3DS port like a year later, so they would still be considered big characters. It’s like Roy in Melee, not a fan pick, but it clearly interested people in picking up the newest FE games.

Krool has basically been wiped out of Donkey Kong entirely at this point, so his inclusion makes no sense, why include a character you’ll never use again, as even if he sparks interest in DK, most people will find it difficult to find the games he’s a part of outside of virtual console, which doesn’t really help in selling the recent DK franchise to the general public if the new Donkey Kong inclusion is part of games from about 2 decades ago, but has no relevance elsewhere.

At this point I think you’re trolling. I know we like to understate the usefulness of the virtual console, but he’s literally had 9 game releases on that in the past five years, many of which were well-advertised. (Paon games are arguable) Not to mention DKC appeared on the SNES Classic.

You also haven’t addressed many of my other points.

Likely the only reason he hasn’t appeared is due to the difficulty of his character model weighed against probsbly not understanding his popularity well enough. Dedede was going to appear in Smash 64 but model difficulty kept him out until Brawl.

One going theory is his unique Mii costume was a basis for his upcoming character model if he has one.

Frankly he’s had more general appearances than other DK villains in the past few years, but we discount ports because they’re “irrelevant”. The fact that he got mentioned in Odyssey and no other villains were objectively displays he’s on Nintendo’s mind.

But if you’re hellbent to argue relevancy and aren’t going to change the direction of the argument, I don’t think we’ll end up discussing anything new.

Again, Geno. Sakurai wants to add him, legal difficulties in the way. No relevance, not even the main character of the one game he’s in.

 

[Spirit Toons]

To start off, I have no problem with Krool, he is Donkey Kong’s main antagonist and a damn good one. I even wanted him in Smash, along with Funky. I wish he was used more often as he has so many gimmicks and a great personality that’s a bit more on the goofy side then say Ganondorf.

I want to preference this so I don’t come off as some angry Krool hater, but as someone who has noticed trends in Smash that lead me to believe that he isn’t going to make it.

First I want to bring up how Smash handles new characters, because (I can’t wait to get hate), they are almost always clever marketing decisions, using characters that are relevant (in games) at the time to build the roster, evening designing characters to be heavily based on new appearances from the previous and modern console generation, and this has been happening since Smash 64.

For Example;
Jiggly Puff - was put in to 64 for anime promotion

Mewtwo and Pichu - were both put into Melee for the anime (Mewtwo having a movie 2 years prior)
Roy - put in to sell FE 6
Marth - Same as Roy, but more so because he was the mascot of the franchise, so you need him along with new lords.
Ganondorf - even though Ganon was in more games, due to Ocarina being on the last console, he was chosen instead.
Zelda and Sheik - also put in for Ocarina, literally lifting their designs from the game
Young Link - put in for Majora and Ocarina
Doctor Mario - Doctor Mario 64, plus the Gameboy title was a highest seller
Falco - Star Fox 64

Zero Suit Samus - Metroid was big, and Zero Mission was a new title that introduced the character
Diddy Kong - literally like the only Rare character to make appearances in new titles after Rare left.
Ike - Radiant Dawn and Path of Radience were newer titles for FE
Wario - The Wario Ware franchise was big, so they completely based Wario on that franchise instead of Land which was practically dead. Even his design was Wario Ware thanks to early DS and Wii titles
Lucario - was part of Gen 4, the newest generation at the time
Olimar - main character from a new IP from the GameCube era, which had two titles. (Both came to Wii)
Pokémon Trainer - The team wanted Ash from the anime
Toon Link - Wind Waker
Lucas - had Mother 3 two years prior
Meta Knight and Dedede - part of Kirby’s main cast that didn’t make it in before. They appear in every title, so their inclusions were no surprise as Kirby was a big and on going franchise.
Wolf - He played a big part in Assault and Star Fox has 2 GameCube Titles and a DS title.
Sonic - In Sonic 06, which gave him a bad name that Sega tried using Smash to get rid of with positive publicity. Sonic was also a huge third party character for Nintendo and had crossovers with Mario around the time.
Snake - other than a friend request, Snake was widely known for his GameCube titles before moving to PlayStation.

Lucina and Robin - Awakening promotion
Dark Pit and Palutena - Uprising promotion
Shulk - Xenoblade was a new IP on the previous Wii system, so Smash helped promote it.
Rosalina - In both Galaxy games on Wii, plus was a character in 3D World which came out a year before Smash.
Bowser Jr. - Used to promote NSMB games, as he uses the Clown Car from that series, and has the returning Koops Kids as alts. Sunshine was entirely neglected outside of the Final Smash
Wii Fit Trainer and Miis - Market the Wii branded games, and Wii Fit had a new title a year before
Greninja - X and Y promotion
Corrin - Promotes Fates
Bayonetta - while considered the Ballot Winner, it was probably due to Bayonetta 2, which her design is based off of.
Ryu - Promotes Street Fighter V for Capcom
Cloud - FF 7 was said to have a remake in development at the time of his release, so his inclusion would build hype.

I brought this up as almost the entire roster of new comers from each game has a new title to give them backing or something recent to help do a cross promotion between Smash and their game. While I did neglect some character because, the point still stands that Nintendo usually picks new characters from recent games, hence why I don’t believe that Krool will be in. He may have popularity, but he doesn’t have anything to add to show the current era Nintendo is in and will go into. Smash is about Nintendo’s history, but it’s always seemed to be the current history, which gets added on top of the histories from previous console generations, which in my opinion, makes the rosters more interesting as you can see what games and characters were relevant through the new comers of each iteration.

With Smash 5, it seems to be going down a similar route with Inklings representing a new IP and Ridley showing the general support and newest boom of Metroid for this era.

 

[StormC]

I'm sure K. Rool is facing very tough competition from "relevant" choices that were available in December 2015. Like... Elma! And... well... hm...

The idea that Ridley got added now because Metroid is "back" is kinda asinine. Metroid was FAR more relevant during Brawl and 4. It was on the outs in 2015. I doubt Sakurai even knew about Samus Returns when he was making roster choices and Prime 4 probably didn't even exist.

You know what other characters fell off the face of the earth for ages and then came back?

 

[Spirit Toons]

I'm sure K. Rool is facing very tough competition from "relevant" choices that were available in December 2015. Like... Elma! And... well... hm...

The idea that Ridley got added now because Metroid is "back" is kinda asinine. Metroid was FAR more relevant during Brawl and 4. It was on the outs in 2015. I doubt Sakurai even knew about Samus Returns when he was making roster choices and Prime 4 probably didn't even exist.

You know what other characters fell off the face of the earth for ages and then came back?

I agree with Brawl, and have commented before. Brawl did put emphasis on Metroid as well as Mother 3 with story mode having bosses from those two franchises/games specifically, along with Mario and Pokémon. Ridley had two completely different encounters in story mode to help promote Metroid and have Metroid promote the new Subspace. As for a new character, Zero Suit Samus took that position, so Brawl did capitalize on Metroid’s success during that time, probably just incorrectly.

As for Smash 4, no. Other M was the only big title around the time, and you could make the argument that it killed Metroid, so I doubt Nintendo would want to capitalize on a now broken and hate spewing fandom when they didn’t seem to want to create new titles after that.

Smash 5 is finally in another Brawl period as Samus Returns and Prime 4 are coming to save the franchise. I know some are skeptical about how Sakurai could know of these titles, but Sakurai has shown to be able to get around in Nintendo. He should have known about Returns as developments would have collided and Prime 4 was already being talked about due to a teaser in Federation Force heavily implying the game’s existence.

 

[Sirfishe]

You know what kinda of really pisses me off? The fact that Sakurai had the time to put the kremlings themselves in Smash Run. Full models and everything but he didn't even bother putting in the King himself. Like WTF! You can't have the kremlings without their king. Makes no sense to me

 

[StormC]

Smash 5 is finally in another Brawl period as Samus Returns and Prime 4 are coming to save the franchise. I know some are skeptical about how Sakurai could know of these titles, but Sakurai has shown to be able to get around in Nintendo. He should have known about Returns as developments would have collided and Prime 4 was already being talked about due to a teaser in Federation Force heavily implying the game’s existence.

Returns was being developed by a Spanish company. I really doubt Sakurai communicated with them.

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by posting in this thread. People who think they have Sakurai 100% figured out and saying "oh, he'll never do XYZ" have been proven wrong time and time again.

 

[Banjodorf]

To start off, I have no problem with Krool, he is Donkey Kong’s main antagonist and a damn good one. I even wanted him in Smash, along with Funky. I wish he was used more often as he has so many gimmicks and a great personality that’s a bit more on the goofy side then say Ganondorf.

I want to preference this so I don’t come off as some angry Krool hater, but as someone who has noticed trends in Smash that lead me to believe that he isn’t going to make it.

First I want to bring up how Smash handles new characters, because (I can’t wait to get hate), they are almost always clever marketing decisions, using characters that are relevant (in games) at the time to build the roster, evening designing characters to be heavily based on new appearances from the previous and modern console generation, and this has been happening since Smash 64.

For Example;
Jiggly Puff - was put in to 64 for anime promotion

Mewtwo and Pichu - were both put into Melee for the anime (Mewtwo having a movie 2 years prior)
Roy - put in to sell FE 6
Marth - Same as Roy, but more so because he was the mascot of the franchise, so you need him along with new lords.
Ganondorf - even though Ganon was in more games, due to Ocarina being on the last console, he was chosen instead.
Zelda and Sheik - also put in for Ocarina, literally lifting their designs from the game
Young Link - put in for Majora and Ocarina
Doctor Mario - Doctor Mario 64, plus the Gameboy title was a highest seller
Falco - Star Fox 64

Zero Suit Samus - Metroid was big, and Zero Mission was a new title that introduced the character
Diddy Kong - literally like the only Rare character to make appearances in new titles after Rare left.
Ike - Radiant Dawn and Path of Radience were newer titles for FE
Wario - The Wario Ware franchise was big, so they completely based Wario on that franchise instead of Land which was practically dead. Even his design was Wario Ware thanks to early DS and Wii titles
Lucario - was part of Gen 4, the newest generation at the time
Olimar - main character from a new IP from the GameCube era, which had two titles. (Both came to Wii)
Pokémon Trainer - The team wanted Ash from the anime
Toon Link - Wind Waker
Lucas - had Mother 3 two years prior
Meta Knight and Dedede - part of Kirby’s main cast that didn’t make it in before. They appear in every title, so their inclusions were no surprise as Kirby was a big and on going franchise.
Wolf - He played a big part in Assault and Star Fox has 2 GameCube Titles and a DS title.
Sonic - In Sonic 06, which gave him a bad name that Sega tried using Smash to get rid of with positive publicity. Sonic was also a huge third party character for Nintendo and had crossovers with Mario around the time.
Snake - other than a friend request, Snake was widely known for his GameCube titles before moving to PlayStation.

Lucina and Robin - Awakening promotion
Dark Pit and Palutena - Uprising promotion
Shulk - Xenoblade was a new IP on the previous Wii system, so Smash helped promote it.
Rosalina - In both Galaxy games on Wii, plus was a character in 3D World which came out a year before Smash.
Bowser Jr. - Used to promote NSMB games, as he uses the Clown Car from that series, and has the returning Koops Kids as alts. Sunshine was entirely neglected outside of the Final Smash
Wii Fit Trainer and Miis - Market the Wii branded games, and Wii Fit had a new title a year before
Greninja - X and Y promotion
Corrin - Promotes Fates
Bayonetta - while considered the Ballot Winner, it was probably due to Bayonetta 2, which her design is based off of.
Ryu - Promotes Street Fighter V for Capcom
Cloud - FF 7 was said to have a remake in development at the time of his release, so his inclusion would build hype.

I brought this up as almost the entire roster of new comers from each game has a new title to give them backing or something recent to help do a cross promotion between Smash and their game. While I did neglect some character because, the point still stands that Nintendo usually picks new characters from recent games, hence why I don’t believe that Krool will be in. He may have popularity, but he doesn’t have anything to add to show the current era Nintendo is in and will go into. Smash is about Nintendo’s history, but it’s always seemed to be the current history, which gets added on top of the histories from previous console generations, which in my opinion, makes the rosters more interesting as you can see what games and characters were relevant through the new comers of each iteration.

With Smash 5, it seems to be going down a similar route with Inklings representing a new IP and Ridley showing the general support and newest boom of Metroid for this era.

It’s the easiest thing in speculation to do to look st characters with hindsight and go “oh yeah this makes sense because X”. Of course, most people who profess they understand Sakurai 100% are wrong.

Also, the 2015 period for roster formation gives us very little. Especially since we know the ballot was designed to influence future Smash choices. It said as much on the Japanese site.

And we literally know Ridley wasn’t chosen for promotion of any kind. He was *only* chosen because of Western demand, Sakurai even told us as much. Of course, he could have lied, but everything we seem to know about this game so far is it’s designed to cater to fans.

Of course, if it’s all about advertisement, tell me why K. Rool had a Mii outfit built from the ground up based on a completely irrelevant design, when he had his more recent design in game and usable as a trophy texture.

But by all means, continue to ignore the other points I’ve made. It’s gettinh a bit tiring.

 

[SeasideKingDumb]

I think relevancy was definitely an issue back in the Smash 4 days because most of the new additions were simply cross promotions. If they weren't cross promotions then they were probably just veterans who people wanted back anyway. If the December of 2015 roster finalization is true then that heavily implies that the Ballot had a huge hand in shaping out this game's roster. I'm not saying that means K. Rool is "definitely in" by any means but the timing between the ballot and Smash 5's finalized roster implies that there's a super strong correlation between the game and the ballot.

Anyway, even though K. Rool hasn't had a main appearance in a game in 10 years a lot of that is due to circumstance, not because the character isn't popular. After Rare left Nintendo the Donkey Kong series was basically dormant (aside from a few spin offs). And as happy as I am that Retro brought Donkey Kong back into the spotlight their attempts at making memorable villains as recognizable as the Kremlings have all sort of failed. The ice characters were close to being recognizable but both them and the Tikis barely anyone actually remembers the names / what they look like. If anything, both sets of villains were simply created just to give the Returns games new gimmicks, which Rare did back in the day by simply giving the Kremlings new costumes.

But anyway I feel like "K. Rool's irrelevancy" is almost sort of almost a moot point right now. His name got trademarked back during the ballot, which doesn't sound like that big of a deal, but getting a trademark clearly shows that the character is worth some financial value to Nintendo. Back during the ballot, developers / people affiliated with Donkey Kong liked and followed a lot of the Kremling campaigning Twitter pages. He has a tiny reference in Mario Odyssey that, while other DK characters have the same reference, is still one of the first acknowledgements of the character in years. Of all the characters to get a Mii costume K. Rool got one and was placed front and center in the advertisement out of 9 costumes. He got a complete redesign which was basically tailor made for the people requesting him.

Saying he is the most relevant character that's not in Smash Bros. would be a complete lie. But I don't think anyone's claiming that. The truth of the matter, and this is inarguable, is that Nintendo at least sees some value in him financially. If they didn't then they wouldn't bother giving him the Mii costume or bother trademarking his name. Even if it isn't Smash Bros. those two things clearly show that they are willing to do something more with the character. I don't know when that day will be that they do decide to use him again (hopefully December 7th, lol) but it will come sooner or later.

Also, just a side note, for a franchise as dormant as Donkey Kong has been for a long time now, K. Rool's 10 year absence isn't even that bad. If he was a Mario character and wasn't in a game for that long, I'd say that would be noteworthy, but the truth is that DK has had only a handful of games since the last one he was in. When people argue about his relevancy they never bring up the fact that DK as a series has had a decently rocky past, so, while it's not great either, 10 years is not that bad in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

This relevance argument again? Sakurai wants to try to include Geno(Which I hope he makes it) in the Smash games and he is from a 20+ year old game. Overwhelming popularity and demand will supersede relevance at times, and I believe K.Rool is going to succeed. Bring on the King.

 

[Banjodorf]

This relevance argument again? Sakurai wants to try to include Geno(Which I hope he makes it) in the Smash games and he is from a 20+ year old game. Overwhelming popularity and demand will supersede relevance at times, and I believe K.Rool is going to succeed. Bring on the King.

This keeps getting ignored, but I’m sure it’s another goalpost to move, honestly.

 

[EdwardSponge]

Relevance means pretty much anything people want it to mean in my opinion. You can't generalize the entire population of gamers who don't post on message boards and act as though there's a foolproof way to appeal to them through Smash. As an example, Kid Icarus Uprising sold 1 million and change in 2012, while DKC sold 9 million in 1994. Can you straightfacedly say Palutena is inherently going to appeal to more gamers than K. Rool, just because her big game was more recent? After all, it's not just new gamers you can draw in to Smash, but also old or inactive ones; you also can garner interest in future games by putting a character as playable and then using them later (see: the entire Fire Emblem franchise). There's also the added wrinkle of a character not necessarily being popular and alluring just because they exist in a new game. Like, yeah, little kids know who Monita is from Nintendo Land, but do they love her to the point of begging Mom and Dad to buy an entirely different fighting game to see more of her?

If the discrepancy between K. Rool and Dixie on the ballot was as big as it has been in the myriad fan polls, I don't think there's any chance Sakurai looks at the Rool votes and says "Oh? They're secretly voting for a DK Rep, so I'mma add Dixie." We didn't get a DK Rep costume...

...we got a K. Rool costume.

K. Rool could still miss out and Dixie could still become playable, but those are decisions that would be made independently from each other, not because the two entirely different characters are competing for a single spot. It's -because- they're being evaluated independently, and have different strengths to offer, that I'm about as optimistic as I can be about us getting both this time.

Thanks for not crediting me for that image that I poured my heart and soul into, and my amazing Photoshop skills that I poured into that artistic masterpiece that took me many months to complete, you absolutely heartless and coldblooded monster.

jk daddy, don't beat me.

 

[Spirit Toons]

It’s the easiest thing in speculation to do to look st characters with hindsight and go “oh yeah this makes sense because X”. Of course, most people who profess they understand Sakurai 100% are wrong.

Also, the 2015 period for roster formation gives us very little. Especially since we know the ballot was designed to influence future Smash choices. It said as much on the Japanese site.

And we literally know Ridley wasn’t chosen for promotion of any kind. He was *only* chosen because of Western demand, Sakurai even told us as much. Of course, he could have lied, but everything we seem to know about this game so far is it’s designed to cater to fans.

Of course, if it’s all about advertisement, tell me why K. Rool had a Mii outfit built from the ground up based on a completely irrelevant design, when he had his more recent design in game and usable as a trophy texture.

But by all means, continue to ignore the other points I’ve made. It’s gettinh a bit tiring.

Alright I’ll argue against your points.

As for the Mii Costume, does that really hint at anything. If the Mii Costume means Krool will get in then the Fighters from Virtual Fighter, Isabelle, K.K. Slider, Protoman, Knuckles, Geno, Waluigi, etc. should be in as characters as they all have costumes as well. Krool got a costume due to popularity sure, but a costume is a much smaller thing to program in than a character. Actually, if we go through the various costumes, almost all of them are assist trophies, in 4 and 5, so wouldn’t this more prove that Krool is an assist?

As for Smash Run, it’s the same issue. The Kremlings were easier to program and give a nod to DK fans. You also have to remember that Subspace villains, the Ice Climber’s Polar Bear, and a Rythm Heaven enemy were also included with no relevancy to any characters on the roster.

Sakurai is a great creator, and says many things, but you also have to remember that he’s using Nintendo’s characters, so Nintendo and other companies like IS and the Pokémon company have say on what characters he needs to include as new comers. Nintendo probably has more say than people realize, I mean, isn’t odd how Sakurai did a complete 180, making Brawl as a middle finger to competitive Smash, but is now making a game for competitive play in a time when Nintendo wants more Esport titles? I don’t think Nintendo would want Sakurai to waste money on characters that they might have a hard time making a profit on outside of Smash, probably limiting him to 1-2 which Sakurai uses to throw curveballs with characters like G&W. So I think it’s less about understanding Sakurai, and more about understanding Nintendo’s business model going forward.

 

[GreenKirby]

Spirit Toons why are you so deadset on trying to prove that K.Rool won't be in due to irrelevance ignoring the fact that several these topics also features fan discussion of irrelevant characters?

Not that I would want you to, but why aren't raining on anyone else's parade?

 

[Banjodorf]

Alright I’ll argue against your points.

As for the Mii Costume, does that really hint at anything. If the Mii Costume means Krool will get in then the Fighters from Virtual Fighter, Isabelle, K.K. Slider, Protoman, Knuckles, Geno, Waluigi, etc. should be in as characters as they all have costumes as well. Krool got a costume due to popularity sure, but a costume is a much smaller thing to program in than a character. Actually, if we go through the various costumes, almost all of them are assist trophies, in 4 and 5, so wouldn’t this more prove that Krool is an assist?

As for Smash Run, it’s the same issue. The Kremlings were easier to program and give a nod to DK fans. You also have to remember that Subspace villains, the Ice Climber’s Polar Bear, and a Rythm Heaven enemy were also included with no relevancy to any characters on the roster.

Sakurai is a great creator, and says many things, but you also have to remember that he’s using Nintendo’s characters, so Nintendo and other companies like IS and the Pokémon company have say on what characters he needs to include as new comers. Nintendo probably has more say than people realize, I mean, isn’t odd how Sakurai did a complete 180, making Brawl as a middle finger to competitive Smash, but is now making a game for competitive play in a time when Nintendo wants more Esport titles? I don’t think Nintendo would want Sakurai to waste money on characters that they might have a hard time making a profit on outside of Smash, probably limiting him to 1-2 which Sakurai uses to throw curveballs with characters like G&W. So I think it’s less about understanding Sakurai, and more about understanding Nintendo’s business model going forward.

Your points are inconsistent.

K. Rool’s Mii costume isn’t like the others. It wS designed from the ground up. Completely. The other non-3rd party outfits used existing assets, from trophies or ATs, while K. Rool’s used his Rare design. His trophies were based on his Paon design. They could’ve used that if they just wanted to throw the fans a bone.

Of course, they never *had* to throw the fans a bone with Kritters in Smash Run. Tikis could have covered DK but they went out of the way to make even more.

If a character is incredibly popular like K. Rool, that shows marketing potential by itself. Such an erroneous point when Wii Fit was practically dead by the time of her addition and hasn’t come back. Snake is back by popular demand despite his series being literally dead.

Sakurai makes the rules for Smash. Not Nintendo. It’s why he’s still in charge of the series. Nintendo didn’t like Snake in Brawl, but he did it anyway.

Sakurai *killed* Mario in Ridley’s character trailer. He has the power to add whatever popular characters he wants.

Also remember that Sakurai asked TPC for Pokémon they were coming up with, and chose Greninja because *he* wanted it, not the other way around.

The problem with “they’ll add what’s marketable” is that adding popular characters is inherently marketable, full stop. And Nintendo continues. To reference K. Rool, and he’s functionally more relevant than Tiki Tong at the very least.

And Yknow, Punch-Out!! was a series with seemingly no future, with POW coming out in 2009, but Mac is still marketable because of relevance? They wouldn’t be trying to sell anything but VC Punch-Out!! Wii with that.

Oh wait, who has even more VC titles than that!

 

[Enchess]

Spirit Toons why are you so deadset on trying to prove that K.Rool won't be in due to irrelevance ignoring the fact that several these topics also features fan discussion of irrelevant characters?

Not that I would want you to, but why aren't raining on anyone else's parade?

I think they're conflating our "Nintendo hasn't forgotten about him, there's still a chance" with "he's a shoe in and there's no way he won't be in". Nothing they are saying is new or shocking to any KKR fans. It reminds me of when people went to the Ridley board constantly in Sm4sh and just talked about his size and relevance as if we didn't already know.

 

[SeasideKingDumb]

Yeah no one on this thread is saying that he's in for sure. We're just hopeful this time around. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'll be disappointed if he isn't in but I don't think anyone is actually going to be blindsided if K. Rool doesn't appear in Smash 5. Maybe surprised, but nobody's saying he's 100%. I think after Ridley got in anything's fair game at this point.

 

[StormC]

I like that they conveniently did not mention that Mega Man got in because of fan demand, not because Capcom had any great plan for him.

 

[Banjodorf]

I like that they conveniently did not mention that Mega Man got in because of fan demand, not because Capcom had any great plan for him.

“Third parties are different, Smash is only about Nintendo promotion” goalpost moving, most likely.

 

[Deleted member]

I won't be down if King K. Rool dosen't get added, I 'm generally content with the roster and this probably will. Be my favourite Smash for many reasons. But dang it would only make it better if he was added. Knowing I'd finally be able to main him would be a great feeling.

Nothing is set in stone, and when Salurai said don't expect to many newcomers I believe him. But I hope and am always rooting for our gnarly king no matter what. You can do it King K. Rool.

 

[Megadoomer]

What I'm basically saying is determination can get you far unless your character that you're pushing is literally a joke. Sorry Waluigi fans.

Just a heads up, you can (and should) edit your posts for something like that, instead of double posting. Also, it's rude to refer to characters with decent-sized support bases as "literally a joke".

 

[Organization XIII]

I like that they conveniently did not mention that Mega Man got in because of fan demand, not because Capcom had any great plan for him.

That's because 3rd parties aren't based on promotion they are based on Star power. If they have icon status it doesn't matter if they are relavent or if they tied to the competition they have a shot.

 

[StormC]

That's because 3rd parties aren't based on promotion they are based on Star power. If they have icon status it doesn't matter if they are relavent or if they tied to the competition they have a shot.

And this isn't some rule written into Sakurai's contract. People act like the man is not malleable, even after everything we've seen with Ultimate.

 

[Banjodorf]

That's because 3rd parties aren't based on promotion they are based on Star power. If they have icon status it doesn't matter if they are relavent or if they tied to the competition they have a shot.

Except the only one who says that is the fans. No one but Sakurai makes the rules, and even those are malleable.

It’s moving the goalposts to erroneously assign stated popularity as factors for Ridley and Mega Man differently. It’s literally the reason both got in. Sakurai wouldn’t reach out to Capcom if Mega Man wasn’t popular, and wouldn’t have gone back on Ridley for the same reasons.

 

[Spirit Toons]

I like that they conveniently did not mention that Mega Man got in because of fan demand, not because Capcom had any great plan for him.

Mega Man is a weird story, but he certainly was still trying to be used. I mean, he did have two new titles between 4 and Brawl with 9 and 10. He still had characters in MVC and had a very ambitious, but cancelled project coming out with Legends. If anything, Smash was used to reintroduce him as Capcom wanted a way to bring him back after a falling out with the creator. I mean, he literally had a Legacy collection using the Smash Amiibo like a year after. Mega Man is more like Sonic as he was put in to shed positive light on the character and company after missteps have been taken. Which is probably what’s happening with Snake right now as he did have Metal Gear 5, but Konami does need good publicity, especially for Metal Gear after a falling out with the creator.

 

[StormC]

Okay guys, let's only support characters we think are likely based on Sakurai's previous patterns and "rules."

I'm sure it will get us far.

 

[Banjodorf]

Mega Man is a weird story, but he certainly was still trying to be used. I mean, he did have two new titles between 4 and Brawl with 9 and 10. He still had characters in MVC and had a very ambitious, but cancelled project coming out with Legends. If anything, Smash was used to reintroduce him as Capcom wanted a way to bring him back after a falling out with the creator. I mean, he literally had a Legacy collection using the Smash Amiibo like a year after. Mega Man is more like Sonic as he was put in to shed positive light on the character and company after missteps have been taken. Which is probably what’s happening with Snake right now as he did have Metal Gear 5, but Konami does need good publicity, especially for Metal Gear after a falling out with the creator.

And all of that could apply to K. Rool if Nintendo wants to use Smash to capitalize on his obvious popularity.

Are we going to keep moving goal posts or creating rules not stated by Sakurai, all in the interest of cherry-picked trends?

Okay guys, let's only support characters we think are likely based on Sakurai's previous patterns and "rules."

I'm sure it will get us far.

Oh no, Takamaru doesn’t count, because Sakurai’s reason for not including him in Smash 4 was he literally wasn’t popular enough.

Hey wait a minute.

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

It was only a matter of time before detractors would come in here and work people up....

 

[Banjodorf]

It was only a matter of time before detractors would come in here and work people up....

Yeah. Literally nothing new is being said. No evidence is being given that we haven’t heard before. Most counterpoints are being danced around, it’s nothing new.

Just the usual somewhat smug detractor angle of “Oh I’m totally rooting for you guys buuuuut there’s no way. Here’s some tired talking points about an older game’s development. So sorry guys! <3”

Ridley fans are familiar with this kind of thing.

 

[mynameisBlade]

I do enjoy reading about the banter of characters getting in the new Smash or not. I like seeing the different points of view that we put out for ourselves. I can't imagine K. Rool getting in Ultimate, but I can't imagine Smash Ultimate without him either. I have no idea what he would look like and what he would do, but the faith I have in K. Rool's and even Geno's supporters is enough to ease my mind and just see what happens. None of these characters are a lock by any means, but hope and imagination sure does drive home the idea of what it could/may be like.

I don't remember where this was said, but wasn't there some article that Sakurai talked about from Brawl to Smash3DS/Wii U where Smash has reached a maximum amount of its player base. They saw less newer players in between the last two games or something like that. If that is the case though, why not try to give the *Most Wanted* their due this time around. From my observations the top few characters anyone can see on any Smash forum are K.Rool, Geno, Crash, Ashley, and even Bandanna Dee. These characters must have been shoved in everyone's face so much, it'd be crazy to not see almost all of them in Ultimate.

I'm talking overall these years seeing those same names (minus Ridley now that he finally got his shot). Those 5 names just hit the message boards constantly. New IP's come and go, but some characters just have legendary noteworthiness and the fans hype them up like no other. I'm still so shocked Ridley fans got their guy! Woot!

 

[Honest Slug]

"Not relevant" is just the next "Too big"

If King K Rool makes it I wonder what excuses people will make as to why he's in but others aren't. I think it's funny how people think Ridley got in due to relevance rather than fan demand.

Maybe I sound a bit harsh but this just screams goalpost moving.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

While I hate the "not relevant enough" arguments. I'd gladly take those over the "he's too fat and ugly to be in Smash" or the misinformed and highly annoying "But this ONE DK character is owned by Rare so he can't appear in Smash" arguments..

 

[MattOnwheels]

Listen y'all, I wouldn't have blown out my voice recording what I did for a character that i felt isn't "Relevant"--which, thats such a stupid argument. Yes, because Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch and Doc Mario were all recent characters in the spotlight when they were included, right?

InB4 "BUT THOSE WERE MUH RETRO CHARACTERS!" No. Shut your mouth. Sakurai does NOT sit down in a chair and go. "So, we need a yearly obscure character to add that fits X, Y and Z." - No. He goes "Oooh, you know who'd be fun? GENO!" He then proceeds to try and add that character and sometimes, it can't work. People forget that the whole fear Sakurai had BEHIND saying Ridley was too big was that he was unsure if a smaller size could do such a great character justice. He wanted to be sure he could honor him and keep him as badass as possible. His exclusion WASN'T because he didn't fit Smash as a game. Sakurai doesn't THINK like that. His exclusion was the result of him thinking "Oh, nah, I'd probably have to water him down and then fans would hate it." But then, he saw the demand and thought "Well damn, I guess I can make him a little smaller if they want him that bad! I guess I was wrong. Neat!"

Bottom line: EVERYONE IS ON THE TABLE and no one--NO ONE--in the gaming world has "Zero" chance. All fans of ANY character need do is be passionate and make the demand known. So, instead of trying to tell someone why their character WON'T make it, how about you make yourself useful and HELP THE CAUSE?

Food for thought.

 

[BKupa666]

The relevance point won't die if K. Rool gets in. People will just stop saying it was a "vocal minority" that wanted him and claim relevance still matters, he was just popular enough to overcome it. And relevance stopped him from getting in until now so it still matters.

Alternatively if a new DK game happens with him in it afterward, we'll hear relevance mattered all along, Sakurai just had advanced knowledge of Donkey Kong's 3D Kingdom.

Of course by that point most of us will be too busy chucking our crowns at people online to care.

 

[MattOnwheels]

The relevance point won't die if K. Rool gets in. People will just stop saying it was a "vocal minority" that wanted him and claim relevance still matters, he was just popular enough to overcome it. And relevance stopped him from getting in until now so it still matters.

Alternatively if a new DK game happens with him in it afterward, we'll hear relevance mattered all along, Sakurai just had advanced knowledge of Donkey Kong's 3D Kingdom.

Of course by that point most of us will be too busy chucking our crowns at people online to care.

I feel it necessary to quote something I said in the SU General thread:

"If I and supporters like me have to become the new "Insane" group, so be it. Call us a minority if you want but we are the most popular Newcomer speculation thread by far with over 68 pages and growing. I'd say that should be enough to validate his popularity, but then I look at what Ridley fans went through. Believe what you will. It won't change our minds."

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I think relevance absolutely matters in the sense that it bolsters a character's chances greatly. Why wouldn't Nintendo want to cross-promote their newer and upcoming games if they have the chance to? If Sakurai is caught between choosing two characters of equal popularity, I have little doubt he'd choose the one that's more relevant to Nintendo at the moment.

However, I don't think it's the be-all and end-all. Issues of contemporary relevance can be overcome by other factors, such as retro appeal or fan demand. I think sufficient popularity can definitely overcome lack of relevance. I don't think the ballot was a one-and-done for Bayonetta and some Mii costumes. The fact that they went out of their way to ask for fan suggestions shows that they place some degree of value on what the fans are interested in seeing this time. If relevance and cross-promotion with new titles was the primary deciding factor, then all the potential newcomers are basically set in stone from the start. Why bother asking the fans if popularity wasn't going to at least be a significant influence on newcomer selection? I suppose it could have been used to help narrow down a pre-selected list of "relevant" characters, but really, how many notable Nintendo characters are actually left who didn't become relevant after the ballot? My assumption is that there weren't many obvious marketable picks around that time - 2015 was kind of a slow year for Nintendo and most of the big promotional inclusions from that era had already gotten into Smash 4 - so they decided to change their approach and take fan demand a lot more seriously for this installment.

Popularity may be all he has, but I think it's a strong thing to have. We've seen that with several characters before. More recent appearances certainly wouldn't hurt K. Rool, but they don't necessarily preclude his inclusion entirely.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

No need for that bull****. Honestly. What some individuals did a couple years ago should not reflect on the whole group as a whole.
I already held a stand together with StormC yesterday on the NintendoZone thread. There is no reason to start anything, as there is nothing to start. You should only argue at the fact that we as individuals create our own paths, and do our own thing. There is NO NEED, to place fire to the fictive fuel and prove some dead meat of a point.

We are not insane. Neither are we as a supporter group "toxic", we are fans of a fictive video game character we are passionate about.
What some individuals do are not to be reflected by the whole group, and I will not sit by, and let that fire be fueled.

I've been a fan of K. Rool since Pre-Brawl. I've gotten friends here, and rarely ever seen much violence, harsh language, assults or bullying.
Therefore, I can not stand still seeing people place a whole group into some "toxic" fanbase, just for something others did.

That's why you should not give inn, or feed them fakenews. Be yourself, be cautious about your own words and actions. Have fun, be part of the community, but never throw a large group of people under the bus if you have a standpoint. It's ok to agree, and disagree, but as a big fan of this fictional crocodile, and part of his fanbase, I'm not considering us anywhere near toxic. I don't speak for all of us, but I speak for the majority who comes here to share passion for this character, and don't piss on other people and their views.

I just wanted to comment on it as I don't think the debate should head that way, but rather be rational about it.
While K. Rool might be the villain, don't let that be us.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

"I like K. Rool, I just don't think he will get in because of x and y"

When a famous croc rocks...

 

[GreenKirby]

Just make K.Rool. the obligatory retro character.

Done.

 

[Banjodorf]

Just make K.Rool. the obligatory retro character.

Done.

At this point, Rare K. Rool kind of is that. So yeah let’s do it.