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Kill

moyshe

Lazer Fox
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
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984
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Ann Arbor, MI
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moyshe
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Having issues killing with Fox, I'm sure its because his moves get stale as they did in Brawl. But would love some advice on how to get kills because that's been my main issue as of now. Getting people to 211% in For Glory is awful.

Also, not sure if this is known, pretty sure it is, like 99% sure it is, but you can tech out of link's up smash while in it as Fox.

ALSO, would love any tips as far as what techs to start learning as fox.
 

SoundChow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
86
Location
PA
I'm not very good at getting the kill with Fox too. I primarily use, nair/f-tilt to upsmash if they miss the tech, double jab to up-smash/down-smash, a nair gimp off stage, down-tilt to up-air (have to use the tip of the d-tilt), or a down-smash while reading a role. If you're behind in a stock, don't go straight for an up-smash because they'll predict it and punish you for it. Just use dash attack and nair to add pressure and then wait for a mistake. However, I'm not a very good fox player so take this advice with a grain of salt.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
I had issues too and would be too aggressive however patience and reading is key. U need to wait it out or wait for a mistake and apply pressure don't rush for the kill. U need to read opponents and time the smash attack just right. Fox is a beast but if you can't read, don't have patience, or quick reflexes. He is not for you. Getting the kill with fox can be tough at times but after working on my fox getting kills have been a lot easier. Don't be afraid to jump off the ledge on some fighters. Fox drops like a rock and recoveries are real good in this game but fox can make it back and he can keep certain fighters off
These are some that work to get the kill
DashA to uair is great
Soft nair to dashUsmash
 
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moyshe

Lazer Fox
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Ann Arbor, MI
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moyshe
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I had issues too and would be too aggressive however patience and reading is key. U need to wait it out or wait for a mistake and apply pressure don't rush for the kill. U need to read opponents and time the smash attack just right. Fox is a beast but if you can't read, don't have patience, or quick reflexes. He is not for you. Getting the kill with fox can be tough at times but after working on my fox getting kills have been a lot easier. Don't be afraid to jump off the ledge on some fighters. Fox drops like a rock and recoveries are real good in this game but fox can make it back and he can keep certain fighters off
These are some that work to get the kill
DashA to hair is great
Soft nair to dashUsmash
yeah I've been trying to be patient and read people more, when I lose my first stock I always come back a lot more aggressive but in general I've been playing fox in 4 a lot like melee fox, just really aggressive and fast. But thanks for the tips, I should be more patient. I also really hate how predictable his dash attack is. Because I used it to start combos.
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
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jab -> jab 2 -> Usmash will work on characters who don't fall fast or lack good N-airs. You can still pull it off against them if they're not expecting it, just know that they can escape it.

D-smash is free if the opponent re-grabs the ledge. You can do Perfect Pivot -> Dsmash if you're comfortable doing Perfect Pivots, even if you hit with the weaker back foot it's still strong. Perfect Pivoting with Fox is very useful to go in and use a U-smash or F-smash to punish, since Fox has the 3rd longest pivot slide in the game (behind Little Mac and Falcon, the 4th longest if you count Speed Shulk), which lets him slide in on unsuspecting opponents.

So in regards to tech, definitely learn the applications of pivoting and perfect pivoting. Not only can you use them to sneak yourself in, but also to quickly retreat back while facing your opponent. The long, fast slide is very useful for spacing as well.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
I've played a lot of fox other melee brawl and smash 4. melee is a whole different character so its not really relevant, but in brawl/smash people know to watch out for the upsmash, and if someone is activly watching out for a move it can be incredibly hard to land it. A mistake I used to make a lot, and still do sometimes make, is just getting way to focused on desperatly trying to land that upsmash kill and I get really punished for it. So try not to just desperate rush in for that upsmash.
That advice might not help you too much, so here are so other kill options you can use to open up your game a bit.

Bair is a very very good kill move in general, look for ways to land bair.
Cross over Bair (that is you jump over them and hit them with the bair in the back of their shield) can sometimes work since occasionally they'll drop their shield to try to follow you and punish your landing, if they do that they eat a bair to the face.
Landing a bair on someones shield, either from the front or the crossup I just mentioned, will often trigger the other player to try to shield grab you, its possible to do a fadeaway bair that looks like they will be able to grab it but you land just outside of their grab range and thus they wiff the grab, when this happens you immediately Fsmash them, so bair grab bait fsmash works well.
you can also autocancel the Bair right in front of them on shield and Dsmash as soon as you land, this is a frame trap that works on most characters (by frame trap I mean if they try to drop their shield to do anything to you, you have a frame advantage and your dsmash comes out before their option and they get hit) if they hold shield all the way through to the dsmash though they get a free punish on you, so it can be a little risky, you cant make this slightly safer by landing behind them so they you are hitting the back of their shield. This method works REALLY well against characters with tether grabs who love to spam tether shield grab.

Uair is your other really good kill move, finding ways to land this can really help your kill game out too, there are heaps of combo's into it around kill percents on characters, I wont list them here since I am still figuring them out but you can find these combo's in other places here on the fox boards. one thing in particular I've noticed is that since both upsmash kills, and dash attack sets up kill moves, if you run at a player when they are on high percents they are going to shield because they DO NOT want to get hit by either of those things and they know that at high percents getting grabbed by fox isnt going to hurt them much, so if you run at people when they are at high percents and go for a grab you'll usually get it. Now as I just mentioned foxes grab options when the opponent is high percent are not very good, BUT I've found that if you up throw them, you get them up nice and high in the air, which actually puts you in a really strong position where you can pressure them with uairs (they'll be airdodging these uairs so look to punish the end of the airdodge with uairs, sometimes just doing an empty jump at them will cause them to airdodge and then when that airdodge is about to end you double jump uair and you'll hit them) so you pressure them to the ground with uairs and if none of the uairs hit them you can usually punish their landing with an usmash (espcially if the airdodge into the ground) if they have a good landing aerial what you do is you run at them and then shield next to where they are going to land, if they use an aerial on your shield you can either regrab and throw them back up to start the pressure all over again, of you can do an out of shield upsmash if they are really close, of if they had a longer range aerial you can drop shield, run and upsmash, but this might not work if they dont use a laggy landing aerial, so in that case you'll have to run grab.


Anyways, a bit of wall of text there, just some other options for you, if you just use upsmash you'll be a really one dimensional fox that people will figure out quick and wont have much trouble with, but if you keep trying new ideas and branching out you'll find that foxes killing options are actually spastic and that you will kill people in all kinds of ways.

Also I've noticed that @DEHF is really starting to figure out all these crazy dsmash the opponent as they grab the ledge stuff, I suspect he will develop that part of foxes meta and then we'll have some sick gimp kill options too.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
yeah I've been trying to be patient and read people more, when I lose my first stock I always come back a lot more aggressive but in general I've been playing fox in 4 a lot like melee fox, just really aggressive and fast. But thanks for the tips, I should be more patient. I also really hate how predictable his dash attack is. Because I used it to start combos.
The best time to use his dash attack is when they are in the air, about to land or did a short hop and aerial. You can play fox really fast and aggressive but you have to always make good decisions. I play a mix of campy and aggressive and it depends on the opponent.
 

EndlessRain

Smash Journeyman
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Just for reference:
Kill setups:
Utilt->uair
Dtilt (tipper)->uair
Double jab cancel dsmash
Double jab cancel usmash (Character dependant)
End of sideB->uair
Perfect pivot dsmash
Perfect pivot (through them) dsmash: For mindgames. Lets you use the strong foot too.
Nair (weak hit)->Hyphen smash: Character dependant, some will land before the usmash and can thus tech out.
Fair spike->usmash: Only if they miss the tech.
 

Mindles

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 13, 2014
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206
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San Antonio
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TheMindless
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At kill percent
Dair>(read there directions headed, follow through)>Usmash
Bair at kill % off the stage
Jab,jab2>dsmash
Of corse uair
Ledge trump>wait for them to get back on ledge>Dsmash
Read them>usmash
:p
 

dahuterschuter

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
444
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Canuck
I think everyone's finding him to be an unreliable killer since his only big kill moves are the usmash which has ridiculous endlag, the uair which of course can be infinite airdodged, and then he's also not great for gimping either. When I first started playing him it seemed like the only way to kill ever was to have an opponent be stupid enough to walk into a smash at 150%.

But, you can use jabs to set up smashes, which has become my brad/butter for Fox outside of reads.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
^ you forgot bair, and also uair is so good that you WANT them to airdodge it because then you can punish with another uair, or keep making them 'infinte airdodge' it to the ground where you get a free usmash if you did it right, or at the very least a grab
 

Beach

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 29, 2014
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119
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Dayton, Ohio
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If they are at ledge, seeing how our offstage game is fairly weak, a JC Up Smash works because of how far you slide. Even on stage a JC UpSmash or an OoS one work well too. I recently started using it and you'd be suprised how well it works
 
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Foster J.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
543
Location
Denmark, Jylland
You should look up Clash Tournaments youtube page and search for Fox, there's loads of footage there, be it DEHF/Larry Lurr or Nakat there's quite a bunch of good Foxes about.

There's also MegaFox who took part in League of Shadows.

Take a look at how they do it to get the feeling of setups to kills, he struggles slightly when they play defensive yes, but remember Uthrow to Uair is still a thing, or you can try to tumble them with a Nair instead and fast fall into a Usmash.
 

_Magus_

Smash Lord
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When playing Fox, I save my U Smash for kills only. With fox's dash speed, his up smash is perfect for killing from a read, and if you're playing Fox right, your pressure should give you plenty of opportunities for those kinds of reads.
 

Timbers

check me out
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Jun 18, 2008
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hipster bay area
I actually find uSmash very scary to try and land against the better portion of the cast (better mobility options, better frame data) and I say this mostly due to how awful the endlag is on uSmash. Fox is pretty good at avoiding kill moves, and it bothers me to ever want to put myself in a position where I can lose a stock for free on block or whiff. I'd prefer to save it only for ftilt/nair (and to a lesser extent dair/jab cancel) followups, or make a HUGE mistake and leave themselves in an unfathomable amount of lag. Forcing airdodges into the ground is great, but the upper characters have a lot of aerial mobility tools that they should never have to airdodge into the ground. uSmash has poor range, even poorer sweetspot, and tons of endlag.

uSmash is a kill option, obviously, but I don't feel like it should be his "go-to" option. uair and bair are a lot more reliable all around, and dsmash does very well on ledge/trump.
 
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luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
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May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
Forcing airdodges into the ground is great, but the upper characters have a lot of aerial mobility tools that they should never have to airdodge into the ground. uSmash has poor range, even poorer sweetspot, and tons of endlag.

uSmash is a kill option, obviously, but I don't feel like it should be his "go-to" option. uair and bair are a lot more reliable all around, and dsmash does very well on ledge/trump.
the new hitboxes on U-smash make me sad, it does have poor range but so does most of foxes moves, his speed is supposed to make up for that, so whilst the range of the move itself sucks, you have effectively half a stage worth of range at an instant.
Making people airdodge to the ground is all about pressure game, the pressure makes people do silly things that normally they shouldn't do, and against a lot of the cast, if you can get under them just as they are going to land and shield, you actually beat 100% of their options (CHARACTER DEPENDENT) if you do it right and are quick. I think at a higher level of play, most people will just throw out a lagless or spacing aerial rather than try to airdodge to the ground, I guess this is where you need to know your enemy.
Some lagless aerials you can just blow through with U-smash (or at least trade hits) and spaced aerials you shield and then if its laggy you get a running upsmash, if it isn't you probs get an ftilt or a grab.
If you do a well spaced sliding shield to where they are going to land and they aerial your shield, thats an usmash out of shield. The options are there, its more a vortex/mixup game than anything, but its one thats worth developing.


In general though, I myself share the same view, U-smash is a heavy punish tool and thus is less relible because it relys on your opponent to make a mistake, and anything like that they is more or less out of your control (its up to them to **** up) isn't reliable imo. Uair is a great kill tool but can be a bit linear and people know to look out for it. Bair is an amazing kill tool that people dont always know to look out for and I even have been reading fox guides on here which dont really give Bair the glory it deserves. Seriously people, learn to use that Bair its amazing.

Timbers is right, Usmash shouldn't be your "go-to" kill option, but it should be your "go-to" punish option.
Being predictable with a punish doesn't matter because its a punish so theres nothing your opponent can do, being predictable with a kill move prevents you from getting kills and then you lose, mix **** up.
 

G-Sword

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
210
As I said they dropped the ball on his smash attacks. For as much lag as they have they should have alot more knock back and kill earlier than what they do. Mario, Luigi can throw out almost lag less smash attacks over and over and they kill at just about the same % or earlier than Fox's.
 

Kon

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 19, 2013
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477
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DK Island
I absolutely agree on the bair. It's great if you follow your ennemy offstage(not to deep though if you want to use a bair). The knockback of the bair is amazing for early kills offstage. Even onstage, it's definitely a reliable killmove. Especially when all of your other killoptions get more or less useless or rely on a hard read(most kill setups end at about 120%, so that's the time when you try to get a little more damage on your opponent and may have to watch for an opportunity to knock them out with a well-spaced bair)

And after all I feel even better killing people with the bair than with an upsmash.

As said: No matter what, don't go to deep offstage in order to land a bair as it is REALLY risky at that point. I have found myself often in situations where this lead to a selfkill. If you use it offstage on about the same height than the ledges +/-, you should have no issues to properly recover.

Btw bair is an amazing tool to kill people who try to recover high.

Also I would say it's worth trying how to land a SH bair, as the timing may be at first tricky but it's also at that point an attack people will have trouble to predict. Especially if mixed up with empty SHs.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
SH Bair also autocancels into a Dsmash which can punish a shield drop
Sh Bair spaced properly onto shield can also net you a kill if they try to shield grab that bair (the grab will miss and you get a free Fsmash/Usmash)
Both of those options work on people who are autopiloting or not used to fox, but are both very obvious and only work maybe once or not at all in higher levels of play.
SH Bair is a great pressure tool though
Also if you are playing on battlefield (which I've seen a lot of opinion on being foxes best stage) if you put your opponent onto a platform a tech chase Bair is easy and works wonders.

Against heroes who have an option that beats our Uair (for an obvious example lets use links Dair) you can jump up as if you are going to Uair, they throw out their Dair or whatever it is, but you dont go straight at them you come up beside them and Bair, that can work really well on characters with unbeatable Dairs who will throw them out because they are used to getting away with it.

Just a few Bair ideas, very good move.
 

ArguablyTasty

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 4, 2015
Messages
5
I enjoy baiting killmoves, then back roll -> Fsmash, which puts you ever so slightly further forward than you were before the roll. And it may be my mind paying tricks on me, but Fsmash seems to come out faster from a backroll
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
it doesnt, and walking away and then fsmashing back in the direction you came from is better then rolling since you dont lock yourself into one option/has greater flexibility
 

EndlessRain

Smash Journeyman
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You can pivot fsmash the same way you pivot ftilt/pivot grab, so you don't even need to walk: abuse that great footspeed, and dash away from attacks, and fsmash back the way you came the instant their hitbox goes away.
 
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