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Kid Icarus rep. necessary?

Should Kid Icarus have more representative in Smash?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 69 49.6%
  • No, not really...

    Votes: 53 38.1%
  • Could care less.

    Votes: 17 12.2%

  • Total voters
    139

Baws

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Personally I would have NO problem with a third KI character since KI:U is practically tied with Awakening as my favorite 3DS game and is in my list for top games of all time.

Now for the thread question: KI already has all that representation you're talking about in Smash 4. FOUR new KI characters appear in Smash 4 (maybe five if Medusa hazards the Wii U Stage.)

As for a third playable character? Not happening. Viridi WILL be the third playable KI character for Smash (you can literally see Sakurai's favoritism for her oozing off of him) but she won't be playable until Smash 5 after another KI game or two.

...I should feel ashamed for mentioning Smash 5 already.
 

Ragna22

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Personally I would have NO problem with a third KI character since KI:U is practically tied with Awakening as my favorite 3DS game and is in my list for top games of all time.

Now for the thread question: KI already has all that representation you're talking about in Smash 4. FOUR new KI characters appear in Smash 4 (maybe five if Medusa hazards the Wii U Stage.)

As for a third playable character? Not happening. Viridi WILL be the third playable KI character for Smash (you can literally see Sakurai's favoritism for her oozing off of him) but she won't be playable until Smash 5 after another KI game or two.

...I should feel ashamed for mentioning Smash 5 already.
Pretty much, I mean I get that a lot of people really wanted Magnus playable in Smash 4 but unless he has a bigger role in a future Kid Icarus game I don't see him being playable in any Smash Bros game cause you only see the guy like three or four times out of the 20 or so chapters in the game so he really doesn't add much to the main story of the game.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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I think Kid Icarus has seen an uptick in notoriety ever since Pit's inclusion in Brawl and the new game releases. I think that given this newfound popularity it is fitting, but I honestly think the entire franchise has been forced upon consumers a bit. I don't really think anyone cared about Pit or Kid Icarus before he was announced for Brawl.
Oh, believe me, people cared.


Check the part where Pit is revealed. The audience is clearly happy to see him.


And the reaction when Kid Icarus Uprising was announced. Everyone was stoked.

Kid Icarus had a fanbase, basically older Nintendo fans who played the game back in the 80s. I even recall people mentioning once in a while that they should release a new game for that series. Pit appearing in Brawl was the first step and then their wish finally came true. KI:U did tremendously well, becoming one of the must-haves for the 3DS. So saying that the franchise was "forced" upon us is probably the least accurate way to describe it.



On another note, I've seen people who say that KI doesn't even deserve a second rep because it only has 3 games in total and has sold less than others. I honestly think that is terrible argument since I don't know who thought that the amount of characters a franchise must have has to be proportional to the amount of games and units sold (some even use this argument against Star Fox as well). Popularity and relevance is a factor but character potential is one as well.
Just take a look at the characters that each individual series have. Aside from the obvious main character, one can determine who seems fitting to be in a fighting game. For instance, seeing the Star Fox team you are not gonna tell me that Slippy or Peppy seem better choices than Falco. Same goes for Palutena; her character was expanded upon in Uprising so not including her in this game would have been a waste of a potential fighter.
 

Ryan.

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I actually haven't played the Kid Icarus games yet, but I mained Pit in Brawl and was a supporter of Palutena due to her potential. Her newcomer trailer has to be one of my favorites, she has so many cool moves.
 

SmashShadow

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She wasn't necessary. Look at the amount of representation that Kid Icarus has in Smash 4.

2 Playable characters (plus 1 gets a customizable moveset)
2 Stages
2 Assist Trophies
5 items
About a third of the Smash Run enemies are from Uprising
An entire mode is based off Uprising

With Palutena in there the series is being placed on a higher level than Donkey Kong, Metroid, FE, etc...

It's not that I'm sad that she's in because she's one of my top 5 most wanted, it's just that KI is being made to be out much bigger than it actually is.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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I think it's bit in between and then something I'm worried about.

Now, it's great to see KI surge so high after it's inclusion in Brawl, especially to it's long-time fans since the 2 first games. But I think I've noticed something bit worrisome with all the saturation of love given to this series in SSB4 after what Uprising had established to it.

Much like SmashShadow said, Kid Icarus has received quite a lot of content during representation, enough to sometimes actually edging in to overshadow the Big N's flagship franchise Mario, (in case of Smash Run).

I can only think this is due biasment towards Sakurai's last work- but looking now how apparent it has now which has made Kid Icarus to have what I basically see as complete center spotlight of interest enforced by the developer team, especially considering that before 2010, KI was just one of those cult classic franchises that was finally remembered. (Kinda like what Little Mac's doing now.)

However, I see this can become pretty detrimental, perhaps even destructive to the series' development.

According to the E3 interview with Sakurai, Uprising started as a 3D shooter project that used progression from air fights to land fights. It was looked to have a franchise going with it, but a good match had to be found. At one point, Star Fox was considered, but KI proved more suitable due Pit being more flexible to the gameplay due not being restricted on an aircraft. In anycase, KI getting a new game was a gradual progress.

Going on, after all the crazy hype and promotion Uprising received, it'd be natural that people would want to see the series get a sequel or a new game, definitely not short of what Uprising brought (because it'd be easily slammed as an inferior game). But Sakurai had already stated to not work on a sequel to Uprising.

Right now, Nintendo's first party teams have to yet show any interest on developing a new KI since 1992. They perhaps could with what Uprising's hype and exposure had done, but I'm 100% sure it'll never reach the same reception as Uprising has, especially if we get something along the lines of a "standard" Kid Icarus-game. IMO Uprising set so many tropes to the series which were quite perfect by Sakurai and his team, yet might be difficult to bring on the next games without either never reaching the same quality, or being excluded as a whole. However, I still see KI not easily getting a new game developed for a while - and if it does, it'll never be hitting the "OOT" that is Uprising.

With SSB4 basically putting Kid Icarus to the center of it due it being the setting of latest work Sakurai did, it's going to put too much pressure to the series itself, along with overshadowing needlessly other franchises in Smash. Since Smash has such huge following, it's quite big deal - Kid Icarus is now such golden-coated elephant on the room with so much love it's getting, that it's no wonder it might easily created one of the more active fanbases compared to others in Smash-fandom and beyond.

Lastly, how much can we have Kid Icarus before we forget completely what it used to be? It's now looking quite likely that might soon fall to the dormancy that is "beloved franchise never getting love for years to come with fanbases whining" ala F-Zero or so worth - especially due how Nintendo's seemingly ignoring it. (It took Sakurai of all people to make new KI).

So yeah. I think making Kid Icarus getting so much biased representation from Sakurai due Uprising was a really, really bad choice- I'm now afraid it's future will be looking bleak due being given so much sparkles to work along with a game that is difficult to top. It's making me so sad too, as I love this series a lot for what it is, and how far it has come.

Like, I bet it's gonna feel weird and empty to most of it's fans (old and new) in later years if it'll get ignored by Nintendo, combined with the pressure from Uprising's critical acclaim.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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It's clear that there is a certain amount of bias towards the series. But in all fairness, I see nothing wrong with having at least two characters and two stages when most other series have the same amount or more.
Now regarding the Smash Run enemies and items, I see what people are talking about but at the same time is something extremely trivial that I would hardly call it a problem; it's just that counting each individual enemy and then getting all defensive because it outnumbers another series by a certain amount seems a little pointless. Again, there is a certain bias around but it doesn't seem like something worth dwelling about. Heck, one of the highlights of this game is Mario vs Sonic vs Megaman vs Pacman, most people will be looking forward to that instead of worrying about who outnumbers who.

And regarding the game mode (which is not based off Kid Icarus but from Kirby Air Ride), that is actually a wise design choice. City Trial was a fun mode and for those who played KI:U will know that the intensity slider and the power grid were cool additions to the game from a designer standpoint and seeing something similar in Smash is actually a good thing. It's no secret that Sakurai borrows ideas from his other games if he sees them fitting; the Smash series has gameplay elements from Kirby, Kid Icarus Uprising uses elements from Smash and now SSB4 is utilizing ideas from Uprising as well.
 
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Oracle_Summon

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It is nice that we got Palutena, but I doubt we will be getting another Kid Icarus Uprising rep. We should not push our luck in hopes of another KIU rep.
 

Jerry Applesauce

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Pit and Palutena are all that's necessary as far as Kid Icarus reps are concerned. Anything more is just pushing it. I kinda expect some characters to appear in Palutena's Temple.
 

_Darkpit_

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Who has votet for no, not really or could care less? Its a shame to click this o.O ! Kid Icarus deserve it represented a lot. Mario, Zelda and co. have enough popularity. o.O
 
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Oatmeal.

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Completely unnecessary. The only reason any Kid Icarus character could get in at all is because of Sakurai's obsessive attachment to Kid Icarus Uprising.
 

JaidynReiman

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Palutena was fine. I don't really think Kid Icarus needs a third rep at this point, though. Its getting HUGE representation already. Give us more DK representation. More DK enemies, items, and characters. We don't even have a DK stage yet. And the DK franchise is FAR bigger than Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus. I think DK is even bigger than Kirby as far as sales go.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Completely unnecessary. The only reason any Kid Icarus character could get in at all is because of Sakurai's obsessive attachment to Kid Icarus Uprising.
The essential characters including a few unconfirmed veterans are the only necessary additions to the roster. Every newcomer is just gravy. Also, Palutena got in as well because she is an icon from one of Nintendo's franchises; she is no less than Peach or Zelda in that regard. It's futile to pretend that she just happened because of some "obsession".

Edit:

We don't even have a DK stage yet.
DK has one stage confirmed so far with more surely to come.
 
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_Darkpit_

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I think Kid Icarus franchise should get Darkpit in SSB4 for a good advertising. I mean Kid Icarus Uprising is probably the last game... Sakurai doesn't develope a sequel anymore. And I think no other developer will develope a sequel... Nintendo prefers to develope 100... Zeldas or Marios... they are to over represented. I think Nintendo will not stop to prefer other franchises and Kid Icarus will be forgotten just like after the Gameboy Version. So I think Kid Icarus needs more characters in SSB4 for a good advertising. Other games like Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong and so on, are going to get sequels again and again. ^^
 
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JaidynReiman

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The essential characters including a few unconfirmed veterans are the only necessary additions to the roster. Every newcomer is just gravy. Also, Palutena got in as well because she is an icon from one of Nintendo's franchises; she is no less than Peach or Zelda in that regard. It's futile to pretend that she just happened because of some "obsession".

Edit:



DK has one stage confirmed so far with more surely to come.
Returning stages don't count.
 

shrooby

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Eeew, "rep" is such an icky word.
It was neither necessary nor unnecessary because the notion of a set of games "deserving" such and such amount of playable characters is silly.
Ignore the fact that Palutena is a "Kid Icarus" character for a moment. She had many fans and could bring interesting abilities to the table. With just one game she was able to make a large impact on many players. But, no, her franchise doesn't have enough games. Good day.
There is obviously Sakurai Bias coming into play with this game(s). I mean, all those KI items and enemies? Freakin' Pit being shown off in the very first trailer for the game and acting like "Kid Icarus" is some big name franchise comparable to Metroid, Zelda, or Kirby? (That still grinds my gears to this day.) Geezus, cool it Sakurai. We get it, Uprising was a game that you made.
But it's not like Palutena as a playable character was purely a result of Sakurai Bias. There was a demand. Granted, Sakurai was most likely (Like, definitely. I'd bet on it.) at least more open to the notion of pretty playable Palutena than other character given that she's his adopted baby, but there was still a noticeable amount of demand nonetheless. And I personally don't think such demand should be ignored for such an arbitrary notion.
Good thing it wasn't.

Perhaps this is just me, but I like to play as characters, not "reps."
 
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extremechiton

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Eeew, "rep" is such an icky word.
It was neither necessary nor unnecessary because the notion of a set of games "deserving" such and such amount of playable characters is silly.
Ignore the fact that Palutena is a "Kid Icarus" character for a moment. She had many fans and could bring interesting abilities to the table. With just one game she was able to make a large impact on many players. But, no, her franchise doesn't have enough games. Good day.
There is obviously Sakurai Bias coming into play with this game(s). I mean, all those KI items and enemies? Freakin' Pit being shown off in the very first trailer for the game and acting like "Kid Icarus" is some big name franchise comparable to Metroid, Zelda, or Kirby? (That still grinds my gears to this day.) Geezus, cool it Sakurai. We get it, Uprising was a game that you made.
But it's not like Palutena as a playable character was purely a result of Sakurai Bias. There was a demand. Granted, Sakurai was most likely (Like, definitely. I'd bet on it.) at least more open to the notion of pretty playable Palutena than other character given that she's his adopted baby, but there was still a noticeable amount of demand nonetheless. And I personally don't think such demand should be ignored for such an arbitrary notion.
Good thing it wasn't.

Perhaps this is just me, but I like to play as characters, not "reps."
well stated.
 

Zzuxon

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Kid Icarus did not deserve a second rep. It has just as many games as Pikmin, much less popularity, yet very few seriously argue for a second pikmin character.
Palutena's inclusion was acceptable ONLY because of her widespread demand.
 
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extremechiton

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Kid Icarus did not deserve a second rep. It has just as many games as Pikmin, much less popularity, yet very few seriously argue for a second pikmin character.
Palutena's inclusion was acceptable ONLY because of her widespread demand.
there isnt much anything a second pikmin rep could do. they all do exactly the same thing.
 
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ThePlasm Wraith as the second Pikmin rep is the most original idea I've heard for Smas requests, it's really something with the mind of Sakurai that would think about that(calling @ Headcrab Jackalope Headcrab Jackalope for the amazing idea)
 

Headcrab Jackalope

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ThePlasm Wraith as the second Pikmin rep is the most original idea I've heard for Smas requests, it's really something with the mind of Sakurai that would think about that(calling @ Headcrab Jackalope Headcrab Jackalope for the amazing idea)
You rang? :b:
there isnt much anything a second pikmin rep could do. they all do exactly the same thing.
*character

Anyway, that statement is full of wrong. Louie could use a bunch of creatures from Pikmin since he's "on the same wavelength" as them. Alph could have used Rock Pikmin and Winged Pikmin in different ways from Olimar, but since Olimar got the Winged Pikmin, Alph lost some of his uniqueness. He could use some engineering moves too. Same thing with Brittany, but with fruit-based attacks. Hell, the President could use the Research Pod, treasures, and Pokos for his attacks. Charlie is the only one I can't think of a legitimate moveset for.

And that's disregarding the Plasm Wraith. ;)


Anyway, to contribute to the topic, I'd say a second one wasn't necessary, but at the same time, I don't mind because it gives me another argument as to why Pikmin can get another character. :awesome:
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Kid Icarus did not deserve a second rep. It has just as many games as Pikmin, much less popularity, yet very few seriously argue for a second pikmin character.
Palutena's inclusion was acceptable ONLY because of her widespread demand.
Amount of games a series has never been a good argument about what and how much content a series should have. And "not deserving" is just a disguised way of saying "I don't want it".
Both of this are invalid reasons against the inclusion of a certain character.
 

egaddmario

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Kid Icarus did not deserve a second rep. It has just as many games as Pikmin, much less popularity, yet very few seriously argue for a second pikmin character.
Palutena's inclusion was acceptable ONLY because of her widespread demand.
Doesn't THAT warrant the second rep....?
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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While I wouldn't mind more, I'm pretty sure Kid Icarus will remain with only two fighters. Pit and Palutena are pretty much the essential characters of the series; I see no need to add more but if it happens (it won't) I won't complain.
I'm pretty sure that Pitto will be just an alt with a voice change for Pit.
 

YAYCONFORMITY

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Wow, over 11 replies in only a couple of hours! Thanks guys, I know it isn't much, but it is for a Smashboards Rookie like me.

As for my thoughts on the Goddess of Light, I think she was unnecessary. Don't get me wrong, I'm bursting with joy that she's in (I even started putting her in my roster after the direct). I just feel as though other series need representatives more than Kid Icarus. Yes, Pit was popular in Brawl, and yes, Kid Icarus Uprising did well, but it still a new rebirthed franchise. I'm going to use the Metroid effect here, in saying that Samus has been alone in every iteration of Smash, and still doesn't have a new character. Yeah yeah, Zero Suit Samus, that didn't count. Metroid has 12 games, and Kid Icarus has 3. So, I think series such as Metroid deserve more representation over Kid Icarus.

Sakurai's bias towards the series did help seeing as he worked on it, and it's his game so he could do what he wants. I knew from that first trailer that Kid Icarus was probably getting a new character. As far as Dark Pit, I wouldn't mind seeing him in, but that's WAY too many characters for such a small franchise! I love Palutena, not sure how deserving she is of that spot on the roster.
Even if Metroid has more games, that doesn't mean it necessarily has better characters. For example, Metroid 2 had no characters besides Mother Brain and Samus. Prime is an almost completely solitary experience for Samus. Ridley is a constant villain, but he presents physical challenges. The only characters you could really squeeze in are some of the hunters, or characters from Other M, but none of those really were very well developed.

Metroid is a series that is, for the most part, based on solitude and atmosphere. There isn't a whole lot of direct storytelling, and not a whole lot of characterization. On the other hand, Uprising is a game with a ton of dialogue and many characters with clear personalities, abilities, goals, motivations, etc. Kid Icarus just lends itself better to representatives than Metroid.
 

ihskeyp

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I don't think that, when thinking of a new roster, a Sakurai thinks 'Which series needs more representation?'
He probably thinks 'Who would be a great character to add to the smash roster?'
It's not all about sales and numbers, it seems like it's probably more about who fits into the smash universe and will be a unique addition to the roster.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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I don't think that, when thinking of a new roster, a Sakurai thinks 'Which series needs more representation?'
He probably thinks 'Who would be a great character to add to the smash roster?'
It's not all about sales and numbers, it seems like it's probably more about who fits into the smash universe and will be a unique addition to the roster.
Exactly. I hate it when people brings number of games and units sold and try to make it pass as a valid argument. That has nothing to do with the matter.
 

_Darkpit_

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Kid Icarus did not deserve a second rep. It has just as many games as Pikmin, much less popularity, yet very few seriously argue for a second pikmin character.
Palutena's inclusion was acceptable ONLY because of her widespread demand.
Kid Icarus should have a second rep. o.o After all its Kid Icarus!! Many people know what Kid Icarus is.

Here are some facts ( sorry for some repeatition):

- Many gamers played Kid Icarus Angel Land Story ( NES ) and Kid Icarus of myth and monsters
- Kid Icarus supporters demanded again and again a new Kid Icarus game from Nintendo
- Super Smash Bros is one of the most popular Nintendogame. And Pit is in. He got a lot of fans because SSBB.
- After Kid Icarus Uprising more gamer LOVE the franchise! It would be a disappointment if Kid Icarus wouldn't get a second rep. ( Me it also affects )

I think its a prejudice to think that Kid Icarus is much less popularity. This is just some of the facts. So I think Kid Icarus has enough supporters. Becuase of that the franchise deserves a 2. rep.


( But some other franchises like Metroid deserves it too yes. I don't want to say that other franchises doesn't deserve it. )
 
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Novice_Brave

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I find it hard to swallow seeing anyone who can legitimately say that Palutena being in the game was only due to "bias," and that KI doesn't "deserve" a second rep - and then turn around and request characters like K. Rool and Ridley.

If you are basing your thoughts on which characters "deserve" to be in the game in terms of overall, or especially modern day relevancy - K. Rool and Ridley lag behind Palutena. Palutena has been a character in three games, and in the most relevant and modern of the batch of games - she is second in importance only to Pit, meaning that she is indeed the best choice for a second KI character. KI:U did earn a huge following among the more hardcore Nintendo enthusiasts especially, and most franchises in Smash do have at least two characters to represent them. K. Rool and Ridley have not had major, groundbreaking roles in a much longer time than Palutena's, and K. Rool's series already has two representatives as opposed to KI's previous one. I'm not opposed to his inclusion, but I don't think it could possibly be said that he deserves it any more than Palutena does. Metroid also has two reps as of Brawl, and again, I'm not opposed to Ridley - I just don't see him deserving a slot any more than Palutena did.

Legitimate question: what logic makes those who think Palutena didn't "deserve" to be included think the way they do? Is it relevancy? How interesting she is as a character? Anger that she got in when characters like Ridley and K. Rool have not yet gotten in despite having asked for them for much longer?

In the end, KI still only has two representatives. Compared to FE's 4, Mario's 5, Zelda's 5, Pokemon's 4 (likely ending up as 5), Star Fox's potential 3, Kirby's potential 3 - it still has lower representation than a lot of the franchises represented. And if relevancy and character/game popularity are any basis for representation "deservedness," then KI definitely deserves its two reps. If Mother can have two reps, then surely so can KI.
 
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JaidynReiman

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I find it hard to swallow seeing anyone who can legitimately say that Palutena being in the game was only due to "bias," and that KI doesn't "deserve" a second rep - and then turn around and request characters like K. Rool and Ridley.

If you are basing your thoughts on which characters "deserve" to be in the game in terms of overall, or especially modern day relevancy - K. Rool and Ridley lag behind Palutena. Palutena has been a character in three games, and in the most relevant and modern of the batch of games - she is second in importance only to Pit, meaning that she is indeed the best choice for a second KI character. KI:U did earn a huge following among the more hardcore Nintendo enthusiasts especially, and most franchises in Smash do have at least two characters to represent them. K. Rool and Ridley have not had major, groundbreaking roles in a much longer time than Palutena's, and K. Rool's series already has two representatives as opposed to KI's previous one. I'm not opposed to his inclusion, but I don't think it could possibly be said that he deserves it any more than Palutena does. Metroid also has two reps as of Brawl, and again, I'm not opposed to Ridley - I just don't see him deserving a slot any more than Palutena did.

Legitimate question: what logic makes those who think Palutena didn't "deserve" to be included think the way they do? Is it relevancy? How interesting she is as a character? Anger that she got in when characters like Ridley and K. Rool have not yet gotten in despite having asked for them for much longer?

In the end, KI still only has two representatives. Compared to FE's 4, Mario's 5, Zelda's 5, Pokemon's 4 (likely ending up as 5), Star Fox's potential 3, Kirby's potential 3 - it still has lower representation than a lot of the franchises represented. And if relevancy and character/game popularity are any basis for representation "deservedness," then KI definitely deserves its two reps. If Mother can have two reps, then surely so can KI.
Relevancy is an asinine statement to bring up for characters with such a huge legacy as K. Rool and Ridley. Who the hell cares if they haven't appeared recently? Sakurai doesn't give a **** about the Kremlings not appearing recently. Its not like these are niche franchise that have less than 5 games and less then 5m copies sold. Metroid has about 7 games and 11m game sales, and DK is Nintendo's fifth best-selling at around 54 MILLION total sales. And K. Rool has appeared in most of the DK games.

Now, I don't think that means that Palutena shouldn't have made it. I think KI is fine with two reps (a third is extremely pushing it). Point is, the recency element is the STUPIDEST EXCUSE AGAINST A CHARACTER INCLUSION EVER. And K. Rool and Ridley are extremely "relevant" anyway, being the main antagonists of their respective franchises.
 
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