Just 2 Changes I Would Like to See For Roy

[Shokio]

I've been pondering these things for a while now and I'm curious to see if any of my fellow Roy mains agree. Overall, I think Roy is almost perfect - he's [almost] the perfect definition of mid-tier in my eyes. But there's 2 little changes I would love to see made to him that I think will completely round him out:

1. His Dair needs to be a spike, or at least a hard-to-cancel meteor.

The funny thing about this is, is that all of my friends that I play with have said this before I even thought about it. I feel that Roy's Dair definitely deserves to be a spike, considering how much harder it is to land compared to everyone else's meteors and spikes. It just doesn't seem fair how everyone has these easy-to-land meteors that are so strong, but Roy's is the hardest to land and yet it's essentially to easiest to cancel out of. That doesn't make much sense to me, the hardest meteor can get canceled much quicker than the easier ones?

Let me refer to Sethlon's match against M2K during Apex. For those of you who haven't seen it, check out the 5:31 mark:

^Something like that should NEVER happen. That should've been a stock right there, plain and simple. And if you look at the comments in the video, you'll see people agreeing and saying that it should be a spike.

2. Some kind of recovery compensation.

Now I know some of you may be thinking I'm a whiner who just wants my character buffed so I can get teh wins, but here me out. I would NOT be asking for this, if the PMBR didn't give compensation to other characters who previously had crappy recoveries already. I'm all for keeping a character's weaknesses in-tact, but when Roy seems to literally be the only person on the roster who cannot recover, then I have to say something.

To explain what I mean, Mario got a wall-jump option out of Up-B, so now he can essentially use two. Falcon and Ganon got their Down-B jump resets restored. Ike's Quick Draw charges MUCH faster now, and can do two wall-jumps out of it, AND combine those with the Aether which is already a great recovery itself, AND it has more horizontal distance (nerf this man's recovery game! His Brawl recovery was fine. #ShamelessNerfPlug). So I'm sure you guys see what I'm saying. People in Brawl who previously had trouble recovering saw huge buffs or compensation. So why not Roy?

Now I'm not saying double the distance of the Blazer or anything like that. That'd be ridiculous and silly. I would actually like for the Blazer to remain as is. The kind of compensation I'm thinking of is situational compensation, such as Mario's wall-jump. The Blazer can still suck, but how bout letting Roy wall-jump out of it? His recover ability will still be limited seeing as how often times Roy can't even make it to the base of a stage, and then of course some stages are difficult to jump off of.

Or maybe make the next 2 swipes of the Side-B as potent as the first, and make the rest cause Roy sink like a hammer.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that, but that's just an example of what I mean by a small compensation instead of just outright buffing the Up-B. If you guys have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

And if anyone feels that some small nerfs should be made to balance out these buffs, I'm down for that. Things like more recovery frames on the Flare Blade, so it's even more dangerous to use off-stage, and becomes a high-risk high-reward kind of move. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I've been pondering these things for a while now and I'm curious to see if any of my fellow Roy mains agree. Overall, I think Roy is almost perfect - he's [almost] the perfect definition of mid-tier in my eyes. But there's 2 little changes I would love to see made to him that I think will completely round him out:

1. His Dair needs to be a spike, or at least a hard-to-cancel meteor.

The funny thing about this is, is that all of my friends that I play with have said this before I even thought about it. I feel that Roy's Dair definitely deserves to be a spike, considering how much harder it is to land compared to everyone else's meteors and spikes. It just doesn't seem fair how everyone has these easy-to-land meteors that are so strong, but Roy's is the hardest to land and yet it's essentially to easiest to cancel out of. That doesn't make much sense to me, the hardest meteor can get canceled much quicker than the easier ones?

Let me refer to Sethlon's match against M2K during Apex. For those of you who haven't seen it, check out the 5:31 mark:

^Something like that should NEVER happen. That should've been a stock right there, plain and simple. And if you look at the comments in the video, you'll see people agreeing and saying that it should be a spike.

2. Some kind of recovery compensation.

Now I know some of you may be thinking I'm a whiner who just wants my character buffed so I can get teh wins, but here me out. I would NOT be asking for this, if the PMBR didn't give compensation to other characters who previously had crappy recoveries already. I'm all for keeping a character's weaknesses in-tact, but when Roy seems to literally be the only person on the roster who cannot recover, then I have to say something.

To explain what I mean, Mario got a wall-jump option out of Up-B, so now he can essentially use two. Falcon and Ganon got their Down-B jump resets restored. Ike's Quick Draw charges MUCH faster now, and can do two wall-jumps out of it, AND combine those with the Aether which is already a great recovery itself, AND it has more horizontal distance (nerf this man's recovery game! His Brawl recovery was fine. #ShamelessNerfPlug). So I'm sure you guys see what I'm saying. People in Brawl who previously had trouble recovering saw huge buffs or compensation. So why not Roy?

Now I'm not saying double the distance of the Blazer or anything like that. That'd be ridiculous and silly. I would actually like for the Blazer to remain as is. The kind of compensation I'm thinking of is situational compensation, such as Mario's wall-jump. The Blazer can still suck, but how bout letting Roy wall-jump out of it? His recover ability will still be limited seeing as how often times Roy can't even make it to the base of a stage, and then of course some stages are difficult to jump off of.

Or maybe make the next 2 swipes of the Side-B as potent as the first, and make the rest cause Roy sink like a hammer.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that, but that's just an example of what I mean by a small compensation instead of just outright buffing the Up-B. If you guys have any ideas, I would love to hear them.

And if anyone feels that some small nerfs should be made to balance out these buffs, I'm down for that. Things like more recovery frames on the Flare Blade, so it's even more dangerous to use off-stage, and becomes a high-risk high-reward kind of move. Let me know what you guys think.

I definitely agree with you on the d-air thing. I think if you have to work that hard to flame spot someone over the ledge, it should be a spike/kill.

There are ways to get around the recovery thing, though.

1. Go to a smaller stage where recovery doesn't matter. Downside: Your opponent can ban those stages.

2. Learn to DI. If you watch Sethlon, he is REALLY good at DI-ing upward to the corners. So, if he doesn't die, he almost always get's back.

 

[Shokio]

I definitely agree with you on the d-air thing. I think if you have to work that hard to flame spot that on someone over the ledge, it should be a spike/kill.

There are ways to get around the recovery thing, though.

1. Go to a smaller stage where recovery doesn't matter. Downside: Your opponent can ban those stages.

2. Learn to DI. If you watch Sethlon, he is REALLY good at DI-ing upward to the corners. So, if he doesn't die, he almost always get's back.

Yup. Problem is is that Green Hill Zone, Wario Ware, and Yoshi's are always insta-banned against me, so the smaller stage option is usually out the window. I do admit that my DI could be better though, definitely something I need to work on.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Yup. Problem is is that Green Hill Zone, Wario Ware, and Yoshi's are always insta-banned against me, so the smaller stage option is usually out the window. I do admit that my DI could be better though, definitely something I need to work on.

Don't count out Fountain of Dreams.

 

[G13_Flux]

honestly, i think the dair changes you are suggesting would break roy. he would be a tad overpowered. its main use is not as a kill move for offstage. try not to compare to other characters so much and look at the killing tools roy currently has.

onstage:
-fair/uair/dair/tech chase > fsmash (pretty easy to land at low-mid percents, even on floaties, and VERY high kill potential)
-fair/uair/dair/dtilt > bair (again, really easy to land at mid-mid high percents, and great kill potential)
-DED (xx> and xxx> have good kill potential, while xx^ sets up for tech chases).
-flare blade (i shouldnt have to explain how easy it is to land this move when used even just a bit wisely; good kill potential onstage)
-counter (use wisely but its an option with decent kill power, and great kill power if youre at the edge)
- dsmash and usmash can get kills at higher percents (mid percents if youre on a platform)

offstage/edge guarding:
-flare blade (enough said)
-dtilt > bair/dair/flare blade
-fsmash/dsmash at edge

if you look at roys options, he has soo many kill moves onstage that are reliable. utilizing these options effectively will net you more kills early on than worrying about trying to get your opponent offstage to meteor smash them. additionally, almost all of these options can be set up through tech chases, which is something that roys dair offers a great segway into. since its so fast, the opponent really doesnt have that much time to react, giving you an advantage in reading their techs. this is something that roy really lacked in melee, and it now offers a great tool to set up into his finishers. its use offstage IMO is present occasionally, but roy has other options to make up for his lack of a great offstage meteor. i mean come on just look at flare blade.. it kills so early offstage and has absolutely massive coverage. that makes up for the meteor the way I see it. if dair was a spike, that would make dtilt > dair a seriously good kill option. it would bassically be taking roy and giving him all the potency of marths ken combo. there would need to be some compensation, and that would just end of making him closer to marth, which we dont really want.

as far as the recovery goes, roy actually has one of, if not the most difficult recovery to edge guard from onstage because of how far his sword reaches up. i wouldnt complain with a slight buff to his recovery in some other way, maybe giving side b a better boost like you said or increasing his air speed.

i think that roy could use a minor tweak somewhere. the biggest thing is see would be to keep him the way he is now, but give him a minor mobility buff. he does have decent mobility atm, but i think something like increased air speed/mobility or higher second jump could work wonders at getting him out of combos a tad easier, or improving his neutral game ever so slightly to help make it just a bit harder for people to get things started on him. another thing i could see working is giving him a quicker OOS option. for instance, giving upsmash a quick launcher hit, similar to ROBs, would help him with shield pressure, particularly on his back side. unfortunately, roy doesnt have many options when facing away from the opponent, as he has minimal coverage or options OOS to deal with that. i dont think this is unjust at all because up smash is quite punishable if baited out, and has minimal range to the sides. this would help out roys defense a little bit to help offset the recovery issue.

 

[ShadowGanon]

honestly, i think the dair changes you are suggesting would break roy. he would be a tad overpowered. its main use is not as a kill move for offstage. try not to compare to other characters so much and look at the killing tools roy currently has.

onstage:
-fair/uair/dair/tech chase > fsmash (pretty easy to land at low-mid percents, even on floaties, and VERY high kill potential)
-fair/uair/dair/dtilt > bair (again, really easy to land at mid-mid high percents, and great kill potential)
-DED (xx> and xxx> have good kill potential, while xx^ sets up for tech chases).
-flare blade (i shouldnt have to explain how easy it is to land this move when used even just a bit wisely; good kill potential onstage)
-counter (use wisely but its an option with decent kill power, and great kill power if youre at the edge)
- dsmash and usmash can get kills at higher percents (mid percents if youre on a platform)

offstage/edge guarding:
-flare blade (enough said)
-dtilt > bair/dair/flare blade
-fsmash/dsmash at edge

if you look at roys options, he has soo many kill moves onstage that are reliable. utilizing these options effectively will net you more kills early on than worrying about trying to get your opponent offstage to meteor smash them. additionally, almost all of these options can be set up through tech chases, which is something that roys dair offers a great segway into. since its so fast, the opponent really doesnt have that much time to react, giving you an advantage in reading their techs. this is something that roy really lacked in melee, and it now offers a great tool to set up into his finishers. its use offstage IMO is present occasionally, but roy has other options to make up for his lack of a great offstage meteor. i mean come on just look at flare blade.. it kills so early offstage and has absolutely massive coverage. that makes up for the meteor the way I see it. if dair was a spike, that would make dtilt > dair a seriously good kill option. it would bassically be taking roy and giving him all the potency of marths ken combo. there would need to be some compensation, and that would just end of making him closer to marth, which we dont really want.

as far as the recovery goes, roy actually has one of, if not the most difficult recovery to edge guard from onstage because of how far his sword reaches up. i wouldnt complain with a slight buff to his recovery in some other way, maybe giving side b a better boost like you said or increasing his air speed.

i think that roy could use a minor tweak somewhere. the biggest thing is see would be to keep him the way he is now, but give him a minor mobility buff. he does have decent mobility atm, but i think something like increased air speed/mobility or higher second jump could work wonders at getting him out of combos a tad easier, or improving his neutral game ever so slightly to help make it just a bit harder for people to get things started on him. another thing i could see working is giving him a quicker OOS option. for instance, giving upsmash a quick launcher hit, similar to ROBs, would help him with shield pressure, particularly on his back side. unfortunately, roy doesnt have many options when facing away from the opponent, as he has minimal coverage or options OOS to deal with that. i dont think this is unjust at all because up smash is quite punishable if baited out, and has minimal range to the sides. this would help out roys defense a little bit to help offset the recovery issue.

Other than giving more kill potential off stage, would making the d-air a spike change anything else (as far as use)? For example, is their a difference between spiking someone into the stage and meteor-ing someone into the stage? Just curious...

 

[G13_Flux]

theres no difference in terms of the physics and game mechanics involved. it would definitely alter how the move is used though. a spike would make tech chasing a tad more difficult because of the angle at which your opponent is sent downwards. since their trajectory is at an angle, they could DI to the side, and be sent farther away than in the case of a purely vertical, meteor hit. This means that roy has to travel farther to get to them if they tech roll away from him, which would decrease the percentage of times that hes able to successfully follow up, probably by a decent margin. it would also completely take away almost all potential that the move has in terms of star KOs on stage from grounded hits. not that dair is particularly great for star KOs as it is, but it can actually kill at mid percents on platforms, especially on stages like yoshis story. the way i see it, dair is pretty good as it is. its quite a valuable combo tool.

 

[Shokio]

theres no difference in terms of the physics and game mechanics involved. it would definitely alter how the move is used though. a spike would make tech chasing a tad more difficult because of the angle at which your opponent is sent downwards. since their trajectory is at an angle, they could DI to the side, and be sent farther away than in the case of a purely vertical, meteor hit. This means that roy has to travel farther to get to them if they tech roll away from him, which would decrease the percentage of times that hes able to successfully follow up, probably by a decent margin. it would also completely take away almost all potential that the move has in terms of star KOs on stage from grounded hits. not that dair is particularly great for star KOs as it is, but it can actually kill at mid percents on platforms, especially on stages like yoshis story. the way i see it, dair is pretty good as it is. its quite a valuable combo tool.

I see what you're saying, but why exactly does changing a meteor to a spike mean that the trajectory has to change? Is there some technicality here that I'm not understanding?

I read that in Melee, the game determines what is a spike and a meteor smash based off of their angles. But since this is a modded game, wouldn't it be possible for them to keep the angle but change the properties? If no, then like I said in my opening post, a hard-to-cancel meteor will be more than welcome too.

 

[EmptySky00]

I see what you're saying, but why exactly does changing a meteor to a spike mean that the trajectory has to change? Is there some technicality here that I'm not understanding?

I read that in Melee, the game determines what is a spike and a meteor smash based off of their angles. But since this is a modded game, wouldn't it be possible for them to keep the angle but change the properties? If no, then like I said in my opening post, a hard-to-cancel meteor will be more than welcome too.

I thought it still read them the same way. You can meteor cancel moves because of the angle they send you down at. Spikes don't have that angle so they can't be meteor cancelled, hence the spike. If they changed the angle that registered as a spike (which I don't know if they could?) then it would change it for every character I assume since it's a game mechanic itself and not a character-specific thing.

 

[ShadowGanon]

theres no difference in terms of the physics and game mechanics involved. it would definitely alter how the move is used though. a spike would make tech chasing a tad more difficult because of the angle at which your opponent is sent downwards. since their trajectory is at an angle, they could DI to the side, and be sent farther away than in the case of a purely vertical, meteor hit. This means that roy has to travel farther to get to them if they tech roll away from him, which would decrease the percentage of times that hes able to successfully follow up, probably by a decent margin. it would also completely take away almost all potential that the move has in terms of star KOs on stage from grounded hits. not that dair is particularly great for star KOs as it is, but it can actually kill at mid percents on platforms, especially on stages like yoshis story. the way i see it, dair is pretty good as it is. its quite a valuable combo tool.

Would increasing the knockback of it a bit change any of it's tech chase properties?

 

[Thor]

I thought it still read them the same way. You can meteor cancel moves because of the angle they send you down at. Spikes don't have that angle so they can't be meteor cancelled, hence the spike. If they changed the angle that registered as a spike (which I don't know if they could?) then it would change it for every character I assume since it's a game mechanic itself and not a character-specific thing.

Actually apparently you can avoid changing the angle we see while making it a spike - if people just set the angle to (for instance) 270 + 360 = 630 degrees, the game would still send you straight down (it would go a full circle then 270 degrees, which would be straight down if it's calculated the way angles are using the sine and cosine functions), and the game would not allow one to meteor cancel it because it's outside the meteor cancel window. I read this works because Sakurai didn't use any angles more than 360 degrees for knockback because doing so was unnecessary for how he programmed the game, thus the meteor cancel window is a specific set of numbers, but the game still processes numbers greater than 360 degrees as simply (X - 360) and repeating this (so 270 + 720 would work out to be the same launch angle) if the number is still greater than 360 degrees.

That said, this would be some pretty strong favoritism towards Roy on the part of the PM team to do this. While I like Roy and it would be cool to see, they would either have to have a really good excuse for doing this, or else do it to other meteors (like TL dair and Ganon dair) as well. They might also have to nerf knockback growth/base knockback a bit, as I'm pretty sure meteors have significantly higher knockback scaling than spikes (in general) to make up for meteor cancelling, so just making it a spike would be super free 50% KOs if you can land the dair offstage.

No real comment on the side+B buff, because I have no opinion on it as of now. I don't think people can CC Blazer, which makes actually knocking Roy out it hard (but I haven't played Roy vs anyone who actually tries to CC because most the people I can play are scrubs and I play Falco or Link vs the good people I can play, since I'm still working on my Roy).

 

[G13_Flux]

Would increasing the knockback of it a bit change any of it's tech chase properties?

it would just give the opponent less time to react. since roys dair already has such high base KB, it makes it very good in this department since you really force your opponent to be on their A game as far as their reactions go. you can mix up dtilt follow ups with things like uair and fair to keep your opponent guessing.

i guess maybe it would be possible then to make it a spike while keeping the angle. although, there currently arent any spikes in game that i know of that dont use some kind of diagonal angle, so idk if the PMBR would opt for it. also though, like i stated earlier, it would definitely make roy a tad polarized and OP

 

[Vigilante]

There's also the option of toning down very good recoveries altogether. This is only my personal view, but I feel that recoveries that are too good make the game less exciting.

 

[YaBoy]

There's also the option of toning down very good recoveries altogether. This is only my personal view, but I feel that recoveries that are too good make the game less exciting.

I dont necessarily disagree, but the inverse situation can just as easily be argued to be unexiting. If everyone has a falco-esque recovery, suddenly just getting off the stage is a garunteed kill half the time.

As for the Thread - I think we would all love for roy to have a spike out of personal bias but I definitely think it will break him. He doesnt need more kill options, though because *most* kill off the side it often feels like he does. I think D-air was designed as a combo tool, and it does its job just fine. There is also the fact that Bair also sweetspots the same time Dair would in most situations so its not like you're without a kill option in these moments.

As for better recovery: I think just making his second arial bfoward act like the first is more than enough. His recovery is not *that* much worse (maybe a solid 1-2 points on scale of 10 depending heavily on map) than marths, with the only major difference being a slightly shorter height on blazer and a faster falling speed.


Also hi guys im new!

 

[Brim]

There's also the option of toning down very good recoveries altogether. This is only my personal view, but I feel that recoveries that are too good make the game less exciting.

This. DEFINITELY THIS. So many recoveries in this game are just too damn good. Also, Roy's recovery is still pretty much garbage but it's fair to say that it just requires a firm mastery of DI to be effective. Just check in on the Social thread in the General segment of Project M forums on the last page there was a pretty solid match between Mango and Sethlon.
-
However, I think it's fair to note they don't need to be less exciting - just less powerful.

 

[kaizo13]

seeing how much easier it is to land Marth's Dair offstage, i don't see why Roy's Dair shouldn't spike. Poor Sethlon deserved that kill

About his recovery, i agree with Vigilante. Roy's recovery only seems mediocre because many other recoveries are much better than they should be.

Recovery has always been one of Roy's weaknesses, and even then...his current recovery is a bit tough to edgeguard. So no i don't think it needs to be buffed, rather the rest of the cast toned down to make for more exciting edguarding throughout the game.

just look at how Mango is able to pull off amazing recoveries with Falco (character with bad recovery) against Mew2king, one of the best, if not the best edge-guarder to play the game.

i really hope more PMBR members see it as Vigilante does and steer this game in the right direction. give us the hype we have grown to love.

 

[Shokio]

I retract my statement about Roy's recovery. After continuously working on my DI like ShadowGanon and others I know irl have suggested, I'm naturally finding it much easier to recover. Instead of only being able to recover 25% of the time, I can recover 75% of the time mostly.

And I was too focused on his recovery's weaknesses that I didn't think about it's strengths. When Roy is actually close enough to recover, his Up-B is one of the safest in the game due to it's multi-hit nature and high priority and range through the stage. So at least it's balanced by keeping Roy safe when he's actually in the vicinity of the ledge. It also can't be CC'd.

As for the Dair, I still believe that deserves some kind of buff. But the recovery, I'm good now. I just needed to stop being a scrub.

 

[TFerg]

I agree, the only changes I would make to Roy would be his Dair being a true spike, and MAYBE make side B go the same distance as the first one, one more time.

Other than that, I genuinely feel that all difficulties I face in matchups are usually my own need to improve. DI, item control, combo dropping etc.

 

[Brim]

I retract my statement about Roy's recovery. After continuously working on my DI like ShadowGanon and others I know irl have suggested, I'm naturally finding it much easier to recover. Instead of only being able to recover 25% of the time, I can recover 75% of the time mostly.

And I was too focused on his recovery's weaknesses that I didn't think about it's strengths. When Roy is actually close enough to recover, his Up-B is one of the safest in the game due to it's multi-hit nature and high priority and range through the stage. So at least it's balanced by keeping Roy safe when he's actually in the vicinity of the ledge. It also can't be CC'd.

As for the Dair, I still believe that deserves some kind of buff. But the recovery, I'm good now. I just needed to stop being a scrub.

He should still have some extra compensation, like being able to wall-jump right after the recovery - in fact I believe he sort of could wall-jump in Melee. And, not to mention I'm almost certain Fox can wall-jump and he falls just as fast, if not faster. There's no reason a character like Ike should be able to do so but Roy can't, especially out of a recovery option (I believe his B-Sideways is considered an alternative for recoveries if he can make the horizontal distance).
And if I remember right, Roy's either a lightweight or a medium weight could someone confirm either way?

I agree, the only changes I would make to Roy would be his Dair being a true spike, and MAYBE make side B go the same distance as the first one, one more time.

Other than that, I genuinely feel that all difficulties I face in matchups are usually my own need to improve. DI, item control, combo dropping etc.

I actually believe it's been stated Roy's Dancing Blade isn't finished yet.

 

[ShadowGanon]

He should still have some extra compensation, like being able to wall-jump right after the recovery - in fact I believe he sort of could wall-jump in Melee. And, not to mention I'm almost certain Fox can wall-jump and he falls just as fast, if not faster. There's no reason a character like Ike should be able to do so but Roy can't, especially out of a recovery option (I believe his B-Sideways is considered an alternative for recoveries if he can make the horizontal distance).
And if I remember right, Roy's either a lightweight or a medium weight could someone confirm either way?

I actually believe it's been stated Roy's Dancing Blade isn't finished yet.

The thing is, Roy doesn't NEED to be able to wall jump after using up-B. If the Roy player DIs correctly, he should be able to get back just about every time. Right now, Roy is one of the most balanced characters in the game. There is no need of any huge changes.

For future recode, it's called the Double Edge Dance. Marth's side-b is the Dancing Blade.

 

[Brim]

The thing is, Roy doesn't NEED to be able to wall jump after using up-B. If the Roy player DIs correctly, he should be able to get back just about every time. Right now, Roy is one of the most balanced characters in the game. There is no need of any huge changes.

For future recode, it's called the Double Edge Dance. Marth's side-b is the Dancing Blade.

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to completely disagree about DI helping that much in Project M (At least in Roy's case). He falls at least twice as fast as he did in Melee - that was literally the only Smash he could ever get back semi-easily. DI really does make a difference - but when the recovery doesn't do the character much justice it doesn't matter. I mean, let's be fair here, the only thing the recovery has going for itself is multiple hits and very good priority but when you need to face things like the ambitious spikes in PM that doesn't mean much.
Alas, I'm mostly . . . Not complaining but . . . at the very least whining. Meh.
*EDIT* Meant to add this earlier.
It also doesn't help that almost all of the blastboxes were edited, and I believe most are smaller now, so that leaves him with a lot less room to DI back to the stage.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to completely disagree about DI helping that much in Project M (At least in Roy's case). He falls at least twice as fast as he did in Melee - that was literally the only Smash he could ever get back semi-easily. DI really does make a difference - but when the recovery doesn't do the character much justice it doesn't matter. I mean, let's be fair here, the only thing the recovery has going for itself is multiple hits and very good priority but when you need to face things like the ambitious spikes in PM that doesn't mean much.
Alas, I'm mostly . . . Not complaining but . . . at the very least whining. Meh.
*EDIT* Meant to add this earlier.
It also doesn't help that almost all of the blastboxes were edited, and I believe most are smaller now, so that leaves him with a lot less room to DI back to the stage.

Meh... I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[G13_Flux]

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to completely disagree about DI helping that much in Project M (At least in Roy's case). He falls at least twice as fast as he did in Melee - that was literally the only Smash he could ever get back semi-easily. DI really does make a difference - but when the recovery doesn't do the character much justice it doesn't matter. I mean, let's be fair here, the only thing the recovery has going for itself is multiple hits and very good priority but when you need to face things like the ambitious spikes in PM that doesn't mean much.
Alas, I'm mostly . . . Not complaining but . . . at the very least whining. Meh.
*EDIT* Meant to add this earlier.
It also doesn't help that almost all of the blastboxes were edited, and I believe most are smaller now, so that leaves him with a lot less room to DI back to the stage.

he has the same falling speed as he did in melee. your statement about him falling twice as fast isnt correct at all. additionally, idk how much of roy youve actually played in project m, but if youve ever seen a falco struggle like hell to edge guard roy with a spike, youd know that his recovery is extremely difficult to edge guard. aside from its distance, its actually one of the safest recoveries in terms of defending from people looking to gimp you, and this is way more so than in melee.

in terms of DIing, it helps quite a lot with making it back to the stage. sure it doesnt make his recovery spectacular, but with good survival DI, your going to realize that his recovery isnt actually the huge gaping weakness everyone talks about.

 

[Brim]

Meh... I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

Also, I'm not trying to bring back the argument but you completely skipped over the DED section.
-
And also, let me restate my opinion earlier regarding DI and Roy's recovery:
Okay, first of all, yes you can make it work, it's obvious Sethlon is one of the only Roys' who can. Trust me I've been looking around, there's not much Roys ever on stream. Secondly, the fact that only one relatively known player uses and effectively uses Roy's recovery isn't the best thing in the world you want to hear -- in my mind it simply means: Yes, it can work, but requires that much more effort in order to do so which I disagree with that it requires that much extra work, not to mention you need a little bit of luck too, hoping your opponent doesn't already know how to deal with Roy's recovery. Or if you don't perfectly sweet spot the ledge you're most likely going to get badly punished just for that alone, which happens a lot in Project M, but Roy's a special case in my opinion.
The other thing is just how easily Roy can die from the top now, because he's not that heavy just a fast faller, and my understanding is that your character won't last long going up-screen if he's not heavyweight. So, DI is definitely important there, and like I said, the simple fact that there's already incredibly strong spikes and meteors in this game along with Roy's doesn't help his recovery - your opponent just needs to know how to get through the priority which I believe a spike like Ganondork's would be sufficient enough.
-
I'm certain I had more, but I'm tired, I had to work at 6 AM.

he has the same falling speed as he did in melee. your statement about him falling twice as fast isnt correct at all. additionally, idk how much of roy youve actually played in project m, but if youve ever seen a falco struggle like hell to edge guard roy with a spike, youd know that his recovery is extremely difficult to edge guard. aside from its distance, its actually one of the safest recoveries in terms of defending from people looking to gimp you, and this is way more so than in melee.

You should be aware I play him almost every day - he's my main. I actually, just checked, according to Melee Wiki (SSBM Wiki). So, even though after months of complaining I apologize for the misunderstanding . . . All on my part... Meh, anyway anyway, let's move off that, can we?

in terms of DIing, it helps quite a lot with making it back to the stage. sure it doesnt make his recovery spectacular, but with good survival DI, your going to realize that his recovery isnt actually the huge gaping weakness everyone talks about

I felt this was easier in order to properly outline where I'm specifically replying to.
My DI has been off for a bit, I won't lie, but like I said, the smaller blast boxes on the stages don't necessarily help him. And, in comparison to what I said earlier, in regards to his falling speed, I'm not sure what about him, but his attacks at the very least seem to last longer, that might've been why I felt they were longer lasting. However, a BRPM (Back Room Project M) confirmation would be nice.
He still feels like he falls faster though... I wonder why, despite my pre-beliefs.

There's also the option of toning down very good recoveries altogether. This is only my personal view, but I feel that recoveries that are too good make the game less exciting.

Despite how this may make things more fair, wouldn't this be just not worth the effort, considering you'd have to go back in for almost, every recovery?

 

[ShadowGanon]

Also, I'm not trying to bring back the argument but you completely skipped over the DED section...

Ummm... Where? I scanned through your post(s) several times but I can't find it...

Also, I'm not trying to bring back the argument but you completely skipped over the DED section.
-
And also, let me restate my opinion earlier regarding DI and Roy's recovery:
Okay, first of all, yes you can make it work, it's obvious Sethlon is one of the only Roys' who can. Trust me I've been looking around, there's not much Roys ever on stream. Secondly, the fact that only one relatively known player uses and effectively uses Roy's recovery isn't the best thing in the world you want to hear -- in my mind it simply means: Yes, it can work, but requires that much more effort in order to do so which I disagree with that it requires that much extra work, not to mention you need a little bit of luck too, hoping your opponent doesn't already know how to deal with Roy's recovery. Or if you don't perfectly sweet spot the ledge you're most likely going to get badly punished just for that alone, which happens a lot in Project M, but Roy's a special case in my opinion.
The other thing is just how easily Roy can die from the top now, because he's not that heavy just a fast faller, and my understanding is that your character won't last long going up-screen if he's not heavyweight. So, DI is definitely important there, and like I said, the simple fact that there's already incredibly strong spikes and meteors in this game along with Roy's doesn't help his recovery - your opponent just needs to know how to get through the priority which I believe a spike like Ganondork's would be sufficient enough.
-
I'm certain I had more, but I'm tired, I had to work at 6 AM.

You should be aware I play him almost every day - he's my main. I actually, just checked, according to Melee Wiki (SSBM Wiki). So, even though after months of complaining I apologize for the misunderstanding . . . All on my part... Meh, anyway anyway, let's move off that, can we?
I felt this was easier in order to properly outline where I'm specifically replying to.
My DI has been off for a bit, I won't lie, but like I said, the smaller blast boxes on the stages don't necessarily help him. And, in comparison to what I said earlier, in regards to his falling speed, I'm not sure what about him, but his attacks at the very least seem to last longer, that might've been why I felt they were longer lasting. However, a BRPM (Back Room Project M) confirmation would be nice.
He still feels like he falls faster though... I wonder why, despite my pre-beliefs.

Despite how this may make things more fair, wouldn't this be just not worth the effort, considering you'd have to go back in for almost, every recovery?

It's ridiculously hard to spike/meteor Roy out of his up-B. You have to time it just perfectly to have the hitbox out right as he hits you. Believe me, I play Ganon, meteoring Roy is no easy feat (Ganon's d-air is a meteor, not a true spike).

So he doesn't fall faster than in Melee? You really didn't specify...

Did you just say that only one Roy main is able to use his recovery effectively after you said that "There's not much Roys ever on stream"? That's a bit... Contradicting... Just sayin...
(Side note: if you want to live up to your avatar, you might want to step up your grammar )

Out of all the streams I've ever watched, I've only ever seen three Roys (Sethlon, Shokio, Lunchables), and they all used his recovery quite well. And Lunchables doesn't even main Roy (I think...). Now that I think about it, I think I saw a set where Lunchables beat Sethlon in a Roy ditto.

I'm pretty sure all of the blast zones for the stages ported from Melee are exactly the same. @ Vigilante , a little help here?

Here's a happy sheep to show there are no hard feelings.

 

[Vicas]

By "few Roys on stream" I think all he means you mostly only see the very best Roy players like Sethlon and that there's only a few of them, which you seem to agree with

I do agree that Roy lives or dies pretty much entirely by DI, though. Maybe a slight increase in distance on his second aerial usage of DED would help, because when I play it seems like horizontal distance is the bigger issue. On the other hand I wouldn't be opposed to making the recoveries of some other characters more like Roy's, if the game wants to go towards less crazy recoveries. Roy's Blazer is more or less good as is, imo. It's got good vertical distance and decent horizontal distance, especially when held to the right or left, and it leads with a pretty big hitbox that I can usually catch people with if they're standing too close to the ledge looking to poke me off. You are in for a world of pain if you they stand back and you don't sweetspot, though

 

[Deleted member]

I main toonlink and my secondary is roy. I only bust my roy out in tourney vs certain mus but I haven't had to play vs those mus yet.

 

[Brim]

So he doesn't fall faster than in Melee? You really didn't specify...

I don't believe I said he didn't . . . ? I'm not sure where you got that assumption. The Wiki didn't state either way, it just said he was a fast faller.

Ummm... Where? I scanned through your post(s) several times but I can't find it...

I never said I was making the argument about his DED in my last post, however you should be aware that it wasn't meant to be an argument.

I actually believe it's been stated Roy's Dancing Blade isn't finished yet. (Ignore in this post I didn't refer it to as DED).

Did you just say that only one Roy main is able to use his recovery effectively after you said that "There's not much Roys ever on stream"? That's a bit... Contradicting... Just sayin...

Could you verify what you mean on the above? What I meant is the fact that out of even most of the Roys' that appear on stream that can even utilize his recovery is a very small percentage in comparison to how many Roys' actually come up in streams.
Look basically what I mean here, is that apparently by show of evidence most Roys' have a very difficult time actually being able to properly use his recovery combined with the DI shows just how difficult it really is to properly use. And, topping it all off he has a very fast fall speed, his ****ty recovery doesn't help much there, even DEDing to try to approach the stage is very difficult because it doesn't have the impact it did in comparison to Melee (Trust me they're different.) - unless a BRPM member can step up and give a word on if DED even provides the same effect. I know it gives Roy the ability to lift himself up by a very small number, but it seems like an incredibly small effect to Roy - where as Melee he has an easier time with this.

Out of all the streams I've ever watched, I've only ever seen three Roys (Sethlon, Shokio, Lunchables), and they all used his recovery quite well. And Lunchables doesn't even main Roy (I think...). Now that I think about it, I think I saw a set where Lunchables beat Sethlon in a Roy ditto.

Could you provide any evidence on this (Aside from Sethlon, I doubt no one here hasn't seen him play)? Not that I don't believe you . . . But that doesn't change my stance until I actually see it, words only prove so much. Been interesting chattin' with you (Sort of).

 

[Deleted member]

someone tl;dr me on what you're complaining about

 

[Blade-Fox]

someone tl;dr me on what you're complaining about

tl;dr: Roy's recovery is too hard for normal players. Only top players can consistently D.I. properly to make Roy's recovery work.

 

[Brim]

someone tl;dr me on what you're complaining about

THINGS. Lots and lots of things! But, no seriously Blade-Fox summed it decently, I just think Roy getting back on stage requires a crap ton of effort.
Also, I made a statement about how I believe Roy's DED is incomplete. Could someone verify this?

 

[Deleted member]

Roys DED is really good, theres pretty much nothing to complain about. His recovery does suck, but thats just roy as a character. He's an intense glass cannon, he can 0 to death people if he is put in the right situation but at the same time if you're playing vs sheik or w/e you can get gimped pretty easily.

 

[Brim]

Roys DED is really good, theres pretty much nothing to complain about. His recovery does suck, but thats just roy as a character. He's an intense glass cannon, he can 0 to death people if he is put in the right situation but at the same time if you're playing vs sheik or w/e you can get gimped pretty easily.

Can I just point out I'm not complaining about the DED? I'm just making the point that it isn't complete, I like it a lot where it's at now though.

 

[Deleted member]

it isn't... complete?

Whatever you say.

 

[Brim]

Just saying what I heard, there's even a few sessions of Smash tournaments where the commentators themselves even say so. I'm not saying, they're right, but they seem to be ontop of things, I believe I've even seen people say the same on the forums.

 

[Vicas]

You're making a very vague statement, there. Do you mean they want to totally change some of the moves? Tweak some of the damage/knockback/whatever? Add more distance to subsequent slashes for recovery? Not complete is a weird thing to say

 

[Azureflames]

• Most of the Roys I've seen don't even utilize the true horizontal distance of upB. You can get quite a bit of extra distance by quickly holding straight left or right rather than holding the control stick at the 45degree angle toward the ledge...I'm sure most of you all know that so hopefully i don't sound stupid/obvious.
• I'd that the only thing recovery related that i'd like is maybe a little extra ummph on the second DED for aerial recoveries (which i don't even need most of the time anyway).
• Also, using the argument that you need stronger recovery options since only the top few Roys can recover well using DI is stupid. Maybe most of the people playing Roy just suck at DI'ing and are used to more powerful recoveries as a crutch?
• Just cause his recovery "takes more effort" doesn't mean that it's useless or needs to be changed. I think it's very manageable at the moment and everything else with his kit is super solid. Maybe it's just me but i don't see how its as bad as some people say.

 

[mimgrim]

Uspecial should have less landing lag. That's the only thing I think he really needs, and it's a rather small need to boot. Anything is just icing on the cake.

 

[Deleted member]

Roys recovery is ok, its just that every character has the tools to gimp along with the fact that everyone elses recovery is BETTER. Also every roy uses his horizontal range with his up b, we're not dumb. Roy is simply a glass cannon, he kills you at 80 and dies at w/e %

 

[mimgrim]

Could still use less landing lag. x_x