Juggling with U-tilt

[thejuica]

Hey there, I have just started practicing playing Smash Melee competitively, after seeing videos of Ken playing on YouTube.

I never knew about how many techs there were in this game, such as wave dashing, wave landing, short hopping, reflective shields and how much Marth could keep people up in the air and controlled for spikes and such.

Over the past few days I've been practicing hard core. I can wave dash almost every time now (about 90%), and I'm still practicing my SHFFL (about 60%).

I learned all the smash terms in a few hours through extensive research and video watching (thanks mostly to these boards) on what U-tilt, and U-air and all of that meant. It took me a while to figure out how to execute the U-tilt (which I'm still not sure how to land every time; sometimes my character jumps when I press the control stick diagonally to set up for one. Anyone know how to fix that?)

When I play on training mode, I can't seem to 'juggle' the NPC, standing still, with his U-tilt, as in Ken's videos. He will do a right U-tilt, then a left one, and follow it with a F-smash.

I just can't seem to get it to work like that for me.

Any Suggestions?

Thanks for reading!

And sorry if this is a dumb post, I really just started getting into how to play the game as fast as I see them playing it in those videos.

 

[thejuica]

Also, in some videos I see Marth's that short hop towards their opponent, but somehow quickly back up, creating space between them and their opponent, but it's a very, very quick movement.

How is that done?

 

[Virgilijus]

In the future, try not to double post

Marth's attack revolve around where the sword hits the opponent. When fighting a space animal (Falco or Fox) or any other fast faller, if they are withing a certain range and you hit them with the tip of the u-tilt, the knock back will send them back up with enough stun time to let them fall down and get hit again. Hitting them too close to the hilt of the sword will send the away horizontally, making juggling impossible. However, actual players (and sometimes computers under the right circumstances) can DI (directional influence) out of the hit by holding the control stick in a direction exactly when they get hit, thus altering the direction of the knock back. So sometimes they can still get out if the percentages are right, even though you hit them with the tip.

Also, on the forums there is a "Search" tool bar that lets you winnow through all the threads here to make sure you aren't posting a new thread that has actually been discussed in detail a while ago. Just letting you know

 

[Jam Stunna]

Virg is a Marth player?

 

[thejuica]

Thanks for the response!

I'm still having troubles incorporating hopping into my gameplay.

I can't seem to get 2 slashes off like I see in videos when I shorthop.

Also having troubles N-airing when I run forward and short hop.

 

[Virgilijus]

Virg is a Marth player?

One of the best in Tennessee

Thanks for the response!

I'm still having troubles incorporating hopping into my gameplay.

I can't seem to get 2 slashes off like I see in videos when I shorthop.

Also having troubles N-airing when I run forward and short hop.

All of those just take practice: numerous repetition until you have it tuned into your muscle memory

 

[thejuica]

Yea, I understand the repetition bit, but I don't know how to do it to repeat it

Double slashing in a short hop hasn't worked for me yet. I don't know what to try anymore!

 

[Virgilijus]

Try it in slow mo while in training mode and then slowly speed it up to normal.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Utilt without jumping is done by tilting the stick, so you never hit the edge of the little octagon your stick is in. You can turn that way too, just tilt it a little.

As for backing up, I think what they're doing is shorthopping towards them and then wavelanding back. A waveland is like a wavedash, only you're doing it from the air, so you're just dodging into the ground and in a direction.

The shorthop double fair or shorthop fair and uair is just a matter of getting the first slash off as quickly as possible. I'm not sure how much of a frame window you're allowed... you can calculate it from Superdoodleman's frame data. Make sure not to fastfall during it, otherwise it won't work.

The fair and uair is easier to hit with than the double fair because of the way the hitboxes start, but they're both pretty conditional, so use them wisely.

I find the best way to do it is just not to think about it. The more you think about the motions, the more you're going to slip up. Just keep an eye on your opponent and focus on hitting them and you'll be fine.

 

[thejuica]

Utilt without jumping is done by tilting the stick, so you never hit the edge of the little octagon your stick is in. You can turn that way too, just tilt it a little.

As for backing up, I think what they're doing is shorthopping towards them and then wavelanding back. A waveland is like a wavedash, only you're doing it from the air, so you're just dodging into the ground and in a direction.

The shorthop double fair or shorthop fair and uair is just a matter of getting the first slash off as quickly as possible. I'm not sure how much of a frame window you're allowed... you can calculate it from Superdoodleman's frame data. Make sure not to fastfall during it, otherwise it won't work.

The fair and uair is easier to hit with than the double fair because of the way the hitboxes start, but they're both pretty conditional, so use them wisely.

I find the best way to do it is just not to think about it. The more you think about the motions, the more you're going to slip up. Just keep an eye on your opponent and focus on hitting them and you'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for that!

Probably some of the most helpful advice I've seen on these forums - for me at least! Your response has cleared up a lot for me!

You're all too right about the focusing part. I was trying to hard to execute combos today when I was playing my friends, and lost every game. Later in the day, we came back, and I felt more at ease, and dominated!

One thing I'm having trouble doing now is chain grabbing. I can do it nearly flawlessly when I play a computer lvl 1 for practice, but when I try to do it against a real player, I just can't seem to land it. They DI somehow, even as Falco, so that I can't get them fast enough. I guess I have to practice my dash dancing more (which I have been LOVING!)

Also, I have another question. When I dash-grab, is it done the same way as dash-cancel crouching? That is, crouch right where you want to grab your opponent, to cancel the dash?

I heard something about jump-cancelling your grabs. I thought it was done by crouch-cancelling. Any clarification on this?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Falco's harder than Fox to chainthrow, because the heavier character have a longer thrown animation than the lighter ones, so you have less reaction time. Falco also seems to fall slower, but that might just be me.

If you don't think you can get the chaingrab, just switch to utilts and shffl'd uairs to juggle them, which is a little easier. The chaingrab only goes up to about forty percent anyway, and it's fairly easy to get an equivalent amount of damage through just hitting them. I think there's a post somewhere about what to do at certain percentages but... I dunno, a lot of effort just for forty damage =P

Ummm... I'm not sure what you're asking but... okay... in essence, there are five kinds of grabs.

1. The standing grab - This is done by just pushing Z while standing. Marth grabs on frames seven to eight and the animation lasts thirty frames.
2. The dashing grab - This is done by just pushing Z while dashing. Marth grabs on frames ten to eleven and the animation lasts forty frames. His grab range is longer this way, though.
3. The shield grab - This is done by pressing A (or Z) while shielded. Marth will go into the standing grab animation. You can do this out of a dash, since the shield cancels the dash. It's nice for defending yourself against an anticipated attack before you grab.
4. The jumpcancel (JC) grab - This is done by tapping up on the Control Stick or X or Y while dashing and hitting Z before you leave the ground (you have a six frame window to do so) This will give you the standing grab animation.
5. The boost grab - I didn't make up the name. Anyway, this is done by hitting A then IMMEDIATELY R or L while dashing. It'll give you the little boost before a dash attack and then you'll grab with the... dashing animation? I think. Either way, it has more range than the dashing grab.

 

[greenpika]

try using bairs or fairs to knock the DI ppl away, or u can use a u-tilt

mmm... i dont think ive ever herd of a dash grab where u crouch... dash grab is where you run and grab and u kind of... grab with longer reach and lag. you can crouch cancel your dash, then grab normally. you jump cancel a grab by jumping then immediately pressing Z.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure there's no crouch-cancelled grab. There's only crouch-cancelled dash and jump-cancelled grab.

 

[thejuica]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it!

Having some troubles with my B-airs, can't seem to aim them. Also still practicing my SHFFL's, they still need a little work. Getting an N-air to pop out instead of a F-air is hard for me, since I'm usually dashing when I SH, so continuing to go forward while releasing the forward button is kind of difficult for me >>

What's the advantages of a jump-cancelled grab as opposed to just a normal one, then?

 

[4 Aces]

Less lag.

Now for most characters, is a jc grab longer than a dash grab or is it the other way around? Thought I should just go ahead and ask that, since I always mix up the two.

 

[ArcNatural]

Dash grab is usually longer and has more lag if you miss. JC grabs are normally faster and less lag. I'm pretty sure the only characters that have shorter dash grabs are the characters that grab with grapples. I know Samus has a shorter dash grab than JC grab, but not sure about Yoshi and the Links.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Bairs aren't that great, I prefer hitting them with the back end of the dair. It's not hard to aim though, you just kinda... line 'em up. Really though you should try to turn and fair instead.

Nairs are fairly easy, you just have to jump while dashing, release the Control Stick and then tap A. Your momentum will carry you forward, so you'll be fine.

You don't always want to JC grab though, as there're some characters (Kirby, Jigglypuff, maybe Game and Watch) that can duck under your standing grab. In the case of Jigglypuff, this can cause you to eat a Rest. Although they're faster, I prefer just dash grabbing to ensure that I grab them with the extra range and whatnot.

 

[Eltrotraw]

I know Samus has a shorter dash grab than JC grab, but not sure about Yoshi and the Links.

I can confirm that with Yoshi. Yoshi's dash grab has a considerably less recovery time than his standing grab, but the hitbox for it is more disjointed...

But other than those characters, yeah, you want to JC grab the majority of the time. It's especially useful to do it during chainthrows in an attempt to follow their DI - if you whiff the grab, you won't be left as open as if you did a dash grab.

Dash grabs do give you a little bit more of range, and there are some situations where that extra range comes in handy...

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I've really never understood that myself, if you whiff a dash grab, you'll have forty frames of lag. If you whiff a JC or standing grab, you'll have thirty frames of lag. Those ten frames don't seem to make that much of a difference to me, considering most attacks come out a lot faster than either.

 

[greenpika]

nairs are like the opposite of f smashes. instead of tapping the control stick to the side when pressing A, let go of the control stick and tap A. then you can continue to move forward, but after a nair, you probably don't have to anymore.

and for those extra 10 frames in a dash grab, a fast char like fox could attack you, or in a team, a jiggles mite come from behind and use rest. but since dash grabs have longer reach, you may want to use them occasionally.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

My point is it's not zero frames versus ten frames, it's thirty frames versus forty frames. Thirty frames in itself is more than enough to land a Rest or something.

 

[Juggleguy]

If you can induce a double jump and then intercept, you can pretty much uair away for awhile on chars like Fox, Falco, Falcon, maybe Sheik at low %.

 

[ArcNatural]

My point is it's not zero frames versus ten frames, it's thirty frames versus forty frames. Thirty frames in itself is more than enough to land a Rest or something.

Look at what your trying to argue. In a game where enhancing your speed plays a huge role in everything you really want to argue how 10 less frames of lag couldn't benefit you? Say you tried to grab and they spotdodged, if you JC grabbed you can actually have time to spotdodge their grab attempt afterwards, if you don't your pretty much grabbed. It's not like when you attempt a grab they are going to avoid it by simply staying right next to you (unless of course it's a character that can duck the attempt, which is when you mix in dash grabs). Since otherwise they have to avoid the grab, those 10 frames can greatly benefit you if you miss attempts.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Elvenarrow3000, thats incredibly stupid to agrue a frame difference when theres a clear advantage.

In a game where one grab or one blow means the difference from saving that stock from a death combo or getting edgeguarded, the answer is clear.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well I mean I'd give up the ten frames in exchange for a more sure grab...

 

[ArcNatural]

Well I mean I'd give up the ten frames in exchange for a more sure grab...

I'm pretty sure I'm correct but feel free to correct me. I'm pretty sure that JC grabbing is FASTER not just in terms of lag, but in actually grabbing the opponent. So it's really a matter of longer range vs a faster grab.

It really depends on the situation. The only time I actually consider dash grabbing is Jigglypuff because so many (at least where I play) get surprised when they can't duck my grabs. If you think they are going to dash away and your not going to get there in time I guess dash grabbing is ok too.

Most of the time though, your more concerned with grabbing them before they can do anything, which I THINK JC grabbing is faster overall for.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I do believe you are right arcnatural, just from the bull**** marth ditto stuff I've experienced on that note.

 

[4 Aces]

I think arcnatural is right aswell. Idk, maybe I'm just used to jc grabbing, but I distinctly remember, when I didn't do jc grabs, that I'd have to press the grab button like a whole pace before I'm in grab range with Fox. Now I tried dash grabbing a few days ago, cuz I was board and I kept whiffing the grab. I always ended up behind the target.

 

[AIDS]

Rule #1 Hit the fox, or Falco with an up tilt
# 2 Tippers only
# 3 you must learn to fallow up, this can be done by limiting the options, if you Uptilt Tipper, and they DI forword(the way you are facing) they will go straight up, if the Don't DI they will go Behind you slightly, and if they DI behind you, the will very much behind you, turn around to limited there options of DI and to fallow up.

the rest like to fallow into ken combo, Fsmash etc. is all up to your feel, differant things happen, and you need to judge and make the right call.

that is pretty much it.