Joke Characters

[MargnetMan23]

As a fan of the mainline pokemon handheld RPG games, but not the anime, I don't think Pichu, Jiggs or even Pikachu have any business in a fighting game alongside Link, Samus, Ganon, Ike, Lucario, Bowser, Charizard and especially Mewtwo. Just like Braixen and definitely Croagunk have no business in Pokken Tournament DX. They can't compete in their home games, so they should all be joke characters.
The only time having a joke character in a competitive game like this is when they're unrealistically balanced to be as good or better than clearly superior characters from their own games. A pikachu should never have a chance against a Mewtwo. Joke characters should be intentially low tier and used as handicap or swag picks as stated earlier. If that's the case, then I have no issue with them.

And if all Smash characters were scaled to how powerful they actually are Kirby would steamroll almost everyone with ease. Marth sure as hell wouldn't be top tier. I mean, I agree, a lot of those pokemon suck if we go by their actual games but... why do we really need to limit ourselves to that?

 

[Downshift]

And if all Smash characters were scaled to how powerful they actually are Kirby would steamroll almost everyone with ease. Marth sure as hell wouldn't be top tier.

Marth/Lucina/Roy/Chrom have some incredible stuff in their FE games. They can single-handedly wipe out entire battlefields of enemy armies.
I'm not saying it has to exactly match the outcome of an IRL cage match, but each character has to have something formidable to bring to the table. Just... something.

And if all Smash characters were scaled to how powerful they actually are Kirby would steamroll almost everyone with ease. Marth sure as hell wouldn't be top tier. I mean, I agree, a lot of those pokemon suck if we go by their actual games but... why do we really need to limit ourselves to that?

Because there are what, 1,000 pokemon now? 250+ when Melee launched? Jiggs, Pichu, etc all take up dev time and limited slots from actual battle-oriented pokemon like Scyther, Blaziken, Hitmonlee, Gallade or Medicham. Hell, even Raichu would be better.

I'm honestly fearful that Nintendo is gonna put Misty's stupid Togepi from the anime in Ultimate as DLC because OMG ITS SO CUTE, SO LETS MAKE IT SUPLEX RIDLEY, LOLOL!

 

[Diem]

As a fan of the mainline pokemon handheld RPG games, but not the anime, I don't think Pichu, Jiggs or even Pikachu have any business in a fighting game alongside Link, Samus, Ganon, Ike, Lucario, Bowser, Charizard and especially Mewtwo. Just like Braixen and definitely Croagunk have no business in Pokken Tournament DX. They can't compete in their home games, so they should all be joke characters.
The problem is having a joke character in a competitive game like this when they're unrealistically balanced to be as good or better than clearly superior characters from their own games. A pikachu should never have a chance against a Mewtwo. Joke characters should be intentially low tier and used as handicap or swag picks as stated earlier. If that's the case, then I have no issue with them.

You're taking this way too seriously.

By that logic, at minimum should all be joke/low tier characters as well, since they're all significantly less powerful than most of the other fighters in the cast.

But that's not what Super Smash is about. It's about all of these diverse characters from different series of different kinds coming together on the battlefield and being on equal footing, as opposed to basing it solely on how powerful they are "canonically". It started as a game where Yoshi could beat Ness, despite Ness who in his home game defeated the "Universal Cosmic Destroyer," and Captain Falcon could beat Link, who's the Hero of Time. Now it's a game where Isabelle can mop the floor with Ridley, Snake can hold his own against Ganondorf, Peach can wipe out Bowser, Little Mac can knock out Palutena, and Ice Climbers can hammer Mario. It's meant to be goofy and non-serious, with characters who shouldn't be able to fight like that being able to win; that's part of the whole appeal.

Take that away, and make all characters only as powerful as they are canonically, then it would stop being a game. It'd just be > everyone else. I don't understand how that's supposed to be remotely any fun. What's the point of having different characters if balance is determined in such a way that every character is deliberately better or worse than everyone else? There'd be no strategy, no matchups, no playstyles, no variety. Fox would get destroyed by Samus. Kirby would obliterate Donkey Kong. Ness would fry Captain Falcon. At that point, what's the point in having a crossover game in the first place? Super Smash might as well not exist.

Forcing characters to only be proportionately powerful to what they are in their home games would absolutely cripple overall enjoyment of the game, casually and competitively. It'd be very boring. Which is why that's not what Smash is.

 

[Downshift]

By that logic, at minimum should all be joke/low tier characters as well, since they're all significantly less powerful than most of the other fighters in the cast.

Well, I removed Snake due to him having GRENADES, MORTARS, C4, MISSILES AND RPGs to murder people with, but otherwise yeah, all joke characters.
R.O.B., if he was a real robot like he depicts, could also hold his own, and Fox/Falco also bring a laser gun to the table.

You're taking this way too seriously.

Oh, definitely.

 

[Deleted member]

You're taking this way too seriously.

By that logic, at minimum should all be joke/low tier characters as well, since they're all significantly less powerful than most of the other fighters in the cast.

Wario's actually extremely strong in Mario/Wario canon, so I don't think that would really apply to him.

 

[Downshift]

Yeah, they don't have to be god-killers like Kirby or anything, they just need to bring anything formidable to the table. In the case of a universe with as many options as Pokemon, you don't include Pichu from a universe that includes Raichu.

And again, I'm not against joke characters being playable in the game, they just should never be even close to high tier, or viable. There should be a distinctive line.
If you only like these cutesy little "kawaii", Hello Kitty-esque characters in the game because you're NOT taking it seriously, you would be OK with them being nerfed into low tier well below Samus, Link, Ganon, Charizard. There should be no reason you'd want them to be viable at a competitive tournament level.
Making a joke character into a high tier like they did with Pikachu and Villager (and probably Isabelle), just turns them into troll characters... which isn't true to their role in their home series and doesn't do the character justice.

 

[osby]

Yeah, they don't have to be god-killers like Kirby or anything, they just need to bring anything formidable to the table. In the case of a universe with as many options as Pokemon, you don't include Pichu from a universe that includes Raichu.

And again, I'm not against joke characters being playable in the game, they just should never be even close to high tier, or viable. There should be a distinctive line.
If you only like these cutesy little "kawaii", Hello Kitty-esque characters in the game because you're NOT taking it seriously, you would be OK with them being nerfed into low tier well below Samus, Link, Ganon, Charizard. There should be no reason you'd want them to be viable at a competitive tournament level.
Making a joke character into a high tier like they did with Pikachu and Villager (and probably Isabelle), just turns them into troll characters... which isn't true to their role in their home series and doesn't do the character justice.

Trying to put characters into specific tiers is horrible game balance.

By this train of though, Bayonetta should have buffed, because that's how strong she is canonically and being anything than top tier wouldn't do her justice. Problem? This is boring.

Development team shouldn't have to think about how they can make cutesy characters low tier, it's a terrible waste of time and energy.

 

[Kierdar]

By this train of though, Bayonetta should have buffed, because that's how strong she is canonically and being anything than top tier wouldn't do her justice. Problem? This is boring.

Development team shouldn't have to think about how they can make cutesy characters low tier, it's a terrible waste of time and energy.

If that's the case, then Kirby should be top tier.

 

[Deleted member]

If that's the case, then Kirby should be top tier.

Kirby easily could be top tier, if he was a little taller. Like, if he had half an inch added to his feet, he'd be unstoppable sans the subpar recovery mixups (he has none lmao)

 

[Downshift]

Trying to put characters into specific tiers is horrible game balance.

I'm not talking about game balance, which hard. I'm talking about straight up sabotaging a character's moveset.
That's easy. There's not really a downside to overdoing it.

Pichu's Fsmash does 15%? Now it does 8%.
Pichu's Fsmash hitbox is 4/5ths the size of Mewtwo's? Now it's 1/4rd the size.
Pichu's Fsmash is active for 4 frames? Now it's active for 2.
Pichu's Fsmash has 20 frames of endlag? Now it has 40 frames.
Pichu weighs 72? Now it weighs 51.
Easy.

You can still play as Pichu. You can still run around and get smash balls, pick up and throw items, jump around and avoid stage hazards and shark people with attacks in FFAs. But if you want to go up against a really good player and win, you're not gonna choose Pichu. Just like an actual Pokemon Trainer trying to actually win a battle isn't going to throw out a Pihcu when it has a Zapdos, Raichu or Jolteon in their party.

Make it happen, Sak.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not talking about game balance, which hard. I'm talking about straight up sabotaging a character's moveset.
That's easy. There's not really a downside to overdoing it.

Pichu's Fsmash does 15%? Now it does 8%.
Pichu's Fsmash hitbox is 4/5ths the size of Mewtwo's? Now it's 1/4rd the size.
Pichu's Fsmash is active for 4 frames? Now it's active for 2.
Pichu's Fsmash has 20 frames of endlag? Now it has 40 frames.
Pichu weighs 72? Now it weighs 51.
Easy.

You can still play as Pichu. You can still run around and get smash balls, pick up and throw items, jump around and avoid stage hazards and shark people with attacks in FFAs. But if you want to go up against a really good player and win, you're not gonna choose Pichu. Just like an actual Pokemon Trainer trying to actually win a battle isn't going to throw out a Pihcu when it has a Zapdos, Raichu or Jolteon in their party.

Make it happen, Sak.

I don't get it. Why would you purposefully want more joke characters when Wii Fit Trainer purposefully has terrible hitboxes, making them the true joke character.

 

[Downshift]

Who said I'm specifically advocating for MORE? I'd rather there not be any, but if there have to be some (to represent Animal Crossing), then nerf them into oblivion.

 

[Kierdar]

Who said I'm specifically advocating for MORE? I'd rather there not be any, but if there have to be some (to represent Animal Crossing), then nerf them into oblivion.

For some characters (pichu) I agree, but they should at least be able to put up some fight.

 

[Downshift]

For some characters (pichu) I agree, but they should at least be able to put up some fight.

Sure, but only in the hands of someone much much more skilled than their opponent. Between similarly skilled players actually trying to win, joke characters should to be a crippling handicap.

 

[Deleted member]

Sure, but only in the hands of someone much much more skilled than their opponent. Between similarly skilled players actually trying to win, joke characters should to be a crippling handicap.

I don't see why that would be wanted, but I see no reason to continue in this conversation.

 

[Downshift]

I don't see why that would be wanted, but I see no reason to continue in this conversation.

And I don't see why you'd prefer to have one single white Pikmin be able to hold its own in a fight against Cloud or Bayonetta, because that also drags down Cloud and Bayo into joke character territory with them.

But that's just because we simply have differing opinions. I'm not asserting that I'm objectively right. You can choose to continue the converstaion so I can understand your POV and you can understand mine, but if you don't care about either of those things then... Ciao.

 

[Deleted member]

And I don't see why you'd prefer to have one single white Pikmin be able to hold its own in a fight against Cloud or Bayonetta, because that also drags down Cloud and Bayo into joke character territory with them.

But that's just because we simply have differing opinions. I'm not asserting that I'm objectively right. You can choose to continue the converstaion so I can understand your POV and you can understand mine, but if you don't care about either of those things then... Ciao.

Nah, I got your POV. I just didn't wanna continue the conversation cuz I got bored of it? Sorry. Though I will say that smash bros is supposed to be toys fighting each other, so I guess that's why something like a pikmin which is merely a few centimeters can even touch someone like Kirby or Bayonetta? That's also the explanation as to why characters who would be taller than buildings are now the same height as a Ape.

 

[Downshift]

Nah, I got your POV. I just didn't wanna continue the conversation cuz I got bored of it? Sorry. Though I will say that smash bros is supposed to be toys fighting each other, so I guess that's why something like a pikmin which is merely a few centimeters can even touch someone like Kirby or Bayonetta? That's also the explanation as to why characters who would be taller than buildings are now the same height as a Ape.

That's a good point. Seeing the fighters as dolls was way easier back in S64 and Melee, but the better graphics seems to be working against that angle.
Also, you talking about Ridley being 1/3 his actual size?
It actually looks really strange to see K.Rool and Bowser looking twice as big as Ridley.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a good point. Seeing the fighters as dolls was way easier back in S64 and Melee, but the better graphics seems to be working against that angle.
Also, you talking about Ridley being 1/3 his actual size?
It actually looks really strange to see K.Rool and Bowser looking twice as big as Ridley.

Yeah, it's heavily implied that the "trophy-to-life"/amiibos are the actual sizes of the fighters because they are not the real characters while each stage is a prop set up by the person playing make believe. Otherwise, at least half of the roster would be crushed by a jab from even Mario.

 

[Kierdar]

Sure, but only in the hands of someone much much more skilled than their opponent. Between similarly skilled players actually trying to win, joke characters should to be a crippling handicap.

Lol, I read this and then look at where Zero put Pichu. (High A teir).

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Been playing Pichu and she's not nearly as bad as in Melee. I dunno if she's A tier like ZeRo said, since it's almost impossible to kill anything outside of gimps, but she does have a lot of nice tools. Upair, Nair, Uptilt and Bair are a lot more combo friendly than PIkachu's.

 

[Downshift]

Lol, I read this and then look at where Zero put Pichu. (High A teir).

No joke character should ever be that good, because then it's a troll character.

 

[Kierdar]

No joke character should ever be that good, because then it's a troll character.

I know, and it's stupid. the only character that should be a troll is duck hunt and maybe villager.

 

[Downshift]

...and now Isabelle.

 

[1FC0]

As a fan of the mainline pokemon handheld RPG games, but not the anime, I don't think Pichu, Jiggs or even Pikachu have any business in a fighting game alongside Link, Samus, Ganon, Ike, Lucario, Bowser, Charizard and especially Mewtwo. Just like Braixen and definitely Croagunk have no business in Pokken Tournament DX. They can't compete in their home games, so they should all be joke characters.
The problem is having a joke character in a competitive game like this when they're unrealistically balanced to be as good or better than clearly superior characters from their own games. A pikachu should never have a chance against a Mewtwo. Joke characters should be intentially low tier and used as handicap or swag picks as stated earlier. If that's the case, then I have no issue with them.

Pikachu can be on equal footing with Mewtwo if level balance is on. A level 100 Pikachu could probably be even stronger than a level 70 Mewtwo.

 

[N0where]

Pichu's trophy STATED he was better suited as a handicap for trolling, so yeah... He is gonna be trash for sure.

That didn't age well. Pichu is a god amongst Pokemon reps now lol