Joke Characters

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1FC0

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#1
I only wanted Pichu in because I want a joke character and I think Pichu is well suited for the role.

So far only 2 Smash games have had a joke character. Those joke characters are Pichu in Melee, and Ganondorf in SSBB. Out of both of them, I think Pichu is far more fitting. I do not think that Ganondorf lends itself well to be a joke character at all as far as his character goes. He looks too serious and powerful to be a joke character and him being a joke character breaks with his canon. Though he does make a very fun joke character gameplay wise IMO.

However what I would have liked it even more if the joke character is a wimp robo from Custom Robo. Like Oil Can or the Chick Robo.
 

Murlough

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#4
I don't want Pichu to be a joke character in Ultimate. Jigglypuff can stay the joke Pokemon character and let Pichu actually be midtier.

I personally hate joke characters, especially in Smash.
 
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#6
Pichu's trophy STATED he was better suited as a handicap for trolling, so yeah... He is gonna be trash for sure.
Dan Hibiki started as pure joke, but over the years Capcom started giving him unexpected strengths. Pichu arguably had those from the start. Dan was at
his peak in USIV, so there's no reason Pichu can't receive significant improvements.
 

Murlough

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#7
Pichu's trophy STATED he was better suited as a handicap for trolling, so yeah... He is gonna be trash for sure.
All I'm saying is we don't need two joke Pokemon characters. Either #BuffthePuff or let Pichu do its own thing.

Keeping the characters around purely to be trash is really dumb if you ask me.
 
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#8
All I'm saying is we don't need two joke Pokemon characters. Either #BuffthePuff or let Pichu do its own thing.

Keeping the characters around purely to be trash is really dumb if you ask me.
Jigglypuff is weird. As a character I'd say she was only truly bad in 64 where she lacked the air speed that defines her currently. Since Melee
her success is highly dependent on the physics of the game she's in, more specifically how easy it is to edgeguard in general. I think she'll do better
in Ultimate with the more limited airdodges and reduced impact of rage, even with no theoretical direct buffs.

As for Pichu, well, he borrows a lot from Pikachu, a born winner in all games except Melee. You'd have to try pretty hard to make him truly awful.
 

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#9
Jigglypuff is weird. As a character I'd say she was only truly bad in 64 where she lacked the air speed that defines her currently. Since Melee
her success is highly dependent on the physics of the game she's in, more specifically how easy it is to edgeguard in general. I think she'll do better
in Ultimate with the more limited airdodges and reduced impact of rage, even with no theoretical direct buffs.

As for Pichu, well, he borrows a lot from Pikachu, a born winner in all games except Melee. You'd have to try pretty hard to make him truly awful.
Jigglypuff as a character was nerfed pretty heavily from Melee to 4. It wasn't just the game mechanics that killed it. Jiggs might be better in Ultimate but if she doesn't get her disjoints back I doubt she'll ever be a viabel pick.

Pichu on the other hand has serious potential this time around since it isn't just a Pikachu clone. Only time with tell though. I don't think Pichu will ever be a better character than Pikachu but it would be great if it made at least midtier.
 

1FC0

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#10
I don't want Pichu to be a joke character in Ultimate. Jigglypuff can stay the joke Pokemon character and let Pichu actually be midtier.

I personally hate joke characters, especially in Smash.
But Jigglypuff has an unique playstyle and making him a joke character would waste his playstyle. Pichu is just a Pikachu clone so being a joke character would not waste Pichu since would be Pichu's can use Pikachu instead to still enjoy the Pichu playstyle (they are even close to each other lore wise). Pichu being a joke character would just make Pichu more unique and would bring joy to people who love joke characters.
 
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ryuu seika

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#11
Pichu may have had Pikachu's moves but he/she never had Pikachu's playstyle. Having to constantly consider the merit of each move and weigh it against the self damage is a uniquely Pichu thing even now, since Charizard has so much super armour and survivability that he doesn't bat an eyelid at the Flare Blitz recoil.
 

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#12
But Jigglypuff has an unique playstyle and making him a joke character would waste his playstyle. Pichu is just a Pikachu clone so being a joke character would not waste Pichu since would be Pichu's can use Pikachu instead to still enjoy the Pichu playstyle (they are even close to each other lore wise). Pichu being a joke character would just make Pichu more unique and would bring joy to people who love joke characters.
Except we don't know how much of a clone Pichu is to Pikachu anymore and Pichu not being god awful for no good reason would bring joy to people that actually like Pichu.
 

1FC0

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#13
Except we don't know how much of a clone Pichu is to Pikachu anymore and Pichu not being god awful for no good reason would bring joy to people that actually like Pichu.
He is probably not a clone anymore considering he is not considered an echo character. Obviously they can declone any character.

But my point is is that making Jigglypuff the joke character will disappoint Jigglypuff mains who like Jigglypuff for his playstyle.
Making Pichu a joke character will not disappoint anyone who only cares about playstyle since they still have Pikachu which is very much like Pichu's old playstyle. If they have given Pichu considerable changes to declone him then no one is attached to Pichu's new playstyle since no one knows about it.

So the only people who might be disappointed if Pichu is the joke character are people who care for Pichu lorewise.
The people who might be disappointed if they make Jigglypuff the joke character are people who care for Jigglypuff lorewise and people who care for Jigglypuff gameplaywise.

And that is my point.

Pichu may have had Pikachu's moves but he/she never had Pikachu's playstyle. Having to constantly consider the merit of each move and weigh it against the self damage is a uniquely Pichu thing even now, since Charizard has so much super armour and survivability that he doesn't bat an eyelid at the Flare Blitz recoil.
Weighing the merits of your moves is important for every character since every move has a risk/reward associated with it. If there existed a move which would have no risk and only reward people would just spam that all the time and then it would get banned. Also you forgot about characters with charge like Robin and Inkling who become helpless if they spam certain moves.
 
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ryuu seika

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#14
Weighing the merits of your moves is important for every character since every move has a risk/reward associated with it. If there existed a move which would have no risk and only reward people would just spam that all the time and then it would get banned. Also you forgot about characters with charge like Robin and Inkling who become helpless if they spam certain moves.
Every move has a degree of risk/reward to it, yes, but few have the knock on effect of Pichu's. The question with most moves is "if I use it now will I get punished?" and the question with charge moves is "can I get away long enough to charge before I need it again?" but the question with a recoil move is "how will this affect the rest of my stock?".
Out of the entire cast, only Robin has a gimmick that gives moves the same degree of lasting impact. Inkling's unnecessary ink limit is more of a global charge move.
 

1FC0

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#15
but the question with a recoil move is "how will this affect the rest of my stock?".
That is the question with every move. The whole point of the game is to reduce the opponents stocks and keep your own stocks as high as possible. The "risk" in the "risk/reward" that every move has almost always refers to effects on your own stock.

The only difference with Pichu's electric moves and most other moves is that Pichu's electric moves always punish Pichu, which just makes his reward smaller and his risk bigger. Other than that there is no special strategy involved: If Pichu can hit then he should probably do so since it tends to hurt the opponent more than it does Pichu and if Pichu cannot hit then he should not do the attack. E.g. there is never a case where you can hit Thunder but should not do it because of some complicated strategy involving recoil damage.

Pichu just plays as a character where every move is very punishable. Any character with no safe moves plays like Pichu in this regard i.e. they do not spam moves but carefully plan each move to hit. Though a do admit Pichu is an extreme in this.
 
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SJMistery

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#16
Just consider that: With rage, the recoil can now be useful to make his kill moves more potent instead of being just a hidrance. With the removal of chaingrabs and the engine changes, his biggest flaw in the metagame (extreme weakness to grabs and throws, especially chainthrows) is erased. Those two factors alone should significantly improve his viability.
 

1FC0

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#17
Just consider that: With rage, the recoil can now be useful to make his kill moves more potent instead of being just a hidrance. With the removal of chaingrabs and the engine changes, his biggest flaw in the metagame (extreme weakness to grabs and throws, especially chainthrows) is erased. Those two factors alone should significantly improve his viability.
How do you know rage is still in the game?
 

Mrplutoguy112

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#18
The only joke character I consider is pichu from melee and I highly doubt he will be anymore better in Ultimate if anything he will just be even more of a joke character tbh.
 
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#20
It wss confirmed to be by swveral who attended E3, but it appears to have been nerfed.
Pichu would have been terrible in 4, too light to take advantage of true rage power but more importantly getting his combos screwed by his own self-damage.
 

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#22
Pichu could do more damage than Pikachu to balance it out (because it's young and not able to control its energy well). But that's about all I can think of.
 

ryuu seika

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#23
Pichu could do more damage than Pikachu to balance it out (because it's young and not able to control its energy well). But that's about all I can think of.
No. That's stupid.
Pichu is clearly the smaller, more agile, multi-hitting, stun-locking, combo-centric version. Not some kind of weird heavy hitter. Hitting harder than Pikachu makes no sense for him but earlier stages have already been shown to have a speed advantage in Smash.
 
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#24
No. That's stupid.
Pichu is clearly the smaller, more agile, multi-hitting, stun-locking, combo-centric version. Not some kind of weird heavy hitter. Hitting harder than Pikachu makes no sense for him but earlier stages have already been shown to have a speed advantage in Smash.
I doubt he was implying Pichu would be slower. He'll likely be just as good at comboing once he gets started, though he won't have the benefit of Quick Attack to get in at the same time. Instead, he'll have naturally better mobility and an Agility with massive distance that makes recovering and escaping disadvantage almost effortless.

I think the self-damage will be to justify how hard it'll be to land solid blows or combos on Pichu. The smallest, and one of the fastest targets in the game.
 

ryuu seika

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#25
I never meant to suggest that he was implying such. I was simply putting forth my thoughts on what Pichu's advantage would be if it wasn't pure damage. Because a pure damage advantage doesn't really make sense for the prevo, no matter how you try and swing it.
 

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#26
No. That's stupid.
Pichu is clearly the smaller, more agile, multi-hitting, stun-locking, combo-centric version. Not some kind of weird heavy hitter. Hitting harder than Pikachu makes no sense for him but earlier stages have already been shown to have a speed advantage in Smash.
It's not stupid at all.

Pichu is a glass cannon without the cannon. All the combo potential in the world means garbo when your main juggle does 2% a hit. Pichu only had a small pool of viable moves for its fighting game archetype, which is a fragile speedster who leverages agility and power for abysmal durability.

There has not ever been any viable or fun fighting game character that is hot trash at everything except speed (Which, surprise surprise, Pichu wasn't even that good at either.)

Pichu needs to hit like it hurts if it's ever going to be a viable character. All the stunlocks in the world don't mean anything if you can't do something from it. Making Pichu's electrical attacks far more potent than Pikachu's is both a fluffy AND crunchy solution to the core weakness of the character.

So no, it isn't stupid.
 

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#27
No. That's stupid.
Pichu is clearly the smaller, more agile, multi-hitting, stun-locking, combo-centric version. Not some kind of weird heavy hitter. Hitting harder than Pikachu makes no sense for him but earlier stages have already been shown to have a speed advantage in Smash.
Is it clear? Have we seen any indication of that being the case? The character isn't playable in the public demo build, and the only significant footage we have is this, and I don't see a whole lot of comboing. And even in Melee, Pichu does have combo potential, but doesn't deal a whole lot of damage to make the character viable in any way, especially compared to Pikachu.

Pichu takes recoil damage for all its electric moves, while other characters have recoil damage for usually just a single move in their moveset, and it's for really powerful moves, like Roy and Ike's neutral B, and Charizard's Flare Blitz, the idea being that the moves are so potent that they damage the user as well, which isn't that new of an idea. Meanwhile, Pichu takes recoil damage for almost all of his moves, and they aren't even that powerful. So by making them more powerful, it would justify the recoil damage, while also making him a more interesting character to play and fight. He'd deal more damage and have more kill potential, but his damage would constantly go up as well, making it still a tricky and risky character to play as, instead of just being a mostly inferior version of Pikachu.
 

ryuu seika

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#28
U-Air dealing only 2% is weirdly weak for both Pichu and Pikachu and it's not a problem if they both get buffed. It would, however, be highly out of character for any of Pichu's physical moves to hit harder than an equivalent move from Pikachu so buffing Pichu's alone is out of the question. The case can be made for Pichu's electrical moves being more powerful, I guess, via the "lack of control means more power" arguement, which you two do explain better than most but still don't convince me of.

Your argument relies on the idea that all recoil moves are moves that are too strong, where as Roy, Kirby and basically every other character with self harm Charizard seem to imply otherwise. What damages them is surpassing their intended limits. Overcharging like we see in Pichu's Skull Bash. Looking at potential self-harmers and not just moves that always hurt you, which is what you're doing Diem Diem , seems to suggest that recoil comes primarily from exceeding ones own limits, not pure strength, and that Pichu should maybe focus more on charging moves.
After all, having weak base versions of his energy attacks that can charge to the strength of Pikachu's and beyond would allow her to feel weak across the board while still having some serious kill moves. And even to be able to ditch her self-harm when he's not using that killing version of them.

I really do believe, though, that superior base brute strength is the antithesis of what Pichu represents and that the previously suggested aura abilities would be a terrible copout way to fix his power level and, if anything, make him less unique, not more.
If either of those is what she gets, I will not play Pichu in this game and, since Pichu's inclusion is one of the few decisions currently announced that I agree with, I might not even get it at all.
 
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P1ZZ4CHU

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#29
U-Air dealing only 2% is weirdly weak for both Pichu and Pikachu and it's not a problem if they both get buffed. It would, however, be highly out of character for any of Pichu's physical moves to hit harder than an equivalent move from Pikachu so buffing Pichu's alone is out of the question. The case can be made for Pichu's electrical moves being more powerful, I guess, via the "lack of control means more power" arguement, which you two do explain better than most but still don't convince me of.

Your argument relies on the idea that all recoil moves are moves that are too strong, where as Roy, Kirby and basically every other character with self harm Charizard seem to imply otherwise. What damages them is surpassing their intended limits. Overcharging like we see in Pichu's Skull Bash. Looking at potential self-harmers and not just moves that always hurt you, which is what you're doing Diem Diem , seems to suggest that recoil comes primarily from exceeding ones own limits, not pure strength, and that Pichu should maybe focus more on charging moves.
After all, having weak base versions of his energy attacks that can charge to the strength of Pikachu's and beyond would allow her to feel weak across the board while still having some serious kill moves. And even to be able to ditch her self-harm when he's not using that killing version of them.

I really do believe, though, that superior base brute strength is the antithesis of what Pichu represents and that the previously suggested aura abilities would be a terrible copout way to fix his power level and, if anything, make him less unique, not more.
If either of those is what she gets, I will not play Pichu in this game and, since Pichu's inclusion is one of the few decisions currently announced that I agree with, I might not even get it at all.
I've been playing Pichu since Melee came out. Every single match I've ever played with Pichu felt like there was something missing. More damage, more knockback, just SOMETHING to make up for the fact that just about everything you do was detrimental to yourself.

Pichu is risk without reward. Yes, it was designed to be a joke character, a character that was handicap fodder or a swag pick. That doesn't mean Pichu can't evolve into a legitimate fighter at a time where Sakurai seems to believe every character should have a fighting chance. The only way to do this is to either remove the self harm gimmick (which is really only making Pichu average at best) or to provide some sort of actual benefit to go with that massive drawback. Pichu's electrical attacks being more potent is perhaps the best start.

Charging just isn't going to work. Maybe in FFA where nobody is paying attention to anything yeah you could snipe a super skull bash or something, but do you really think Pichu would be even halfway decent if you had to charge up an F-Smash just for it to be on par with something basically every other character worth a darn can do with a tilt? Besides, Pichu being charge based would be utterly against the very base playstyle. You're supposed to zip around, not stay in place and hope for an opportunity to punish some move seconds ahead of time. You'd have to have some sort of protection to give you a fighting chance against the enemy. Something like super armor. A Pichu with loads of super armor would be even more nonsensical than what you're saying is stupid, and that would be the only way Pichu would be remotely worth picking up under that framework. A Pichu that needs to sit there and charge is a Pichu that just got shot across the screen by Marth's fair.
 
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ryuu seika

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#30
I've been playing Pichu since Melee came out. Every single match I've ever played with Pichu felt like there was something missing. More damage, more knockback, just SOMETHING to make up for the fact that just about everything you do was detrimental to yourself.

Pichu is risk without reward. Yes, it was designed to be a joke character, a character that was handicap fodder or a swag pick. That doesn't mean Pichu can't evolve into a legitimate fighter at a time where Sakurai seems to believe every character should have a fighting chance. The only way to do this is to either remove the self harm gimmick (which is really only making Pichu average at best) or to provide some sort of actual benefit to go with that massive drawback. Pichu's electrical attacks being more potent is perhaps the best start.
The only part of this that I disagree with is the last sentence. Pichu had one or two tiny advantages in Melee but they were basically insignificant compared to his flaws. He needs a buff but superior strength, be it knockback or damage, really does not fit with his character, IMO.

Charging just isn't going to work. Maybe in FFA where nobody is paying attention to anything yeah you could snipe a super skull bash or something, but do you really think Pichu would be even halfway decent if you had to charge up an F-Smash just for it to be on par with something basically every other character worth a darn can do with a tilt? Besides, Pichu being charge based would be utterly against the very base playstyle. You're supposed to zip around, not stay in place and hope for an opportunity to punish some move seconds ahead of time. You'd have to have some sort of protection to give you a fighting chance against the enemy. Something like super armor. A Pichu with loads of super armor would be even more nonsensical than what you're saying is stupid, and that would be the only way Pichu would be remotely worth picking up under that framework. A Pichu that needs to sit there and charge is a Pichu that just got shot across the screen by Marth's fair.
First off, nobody but you is suggesting super armour on Pichu. That would, indeed, be dumb. The mechanic may have elements of self-harm to it but it evokes a sense of not caring associated with heavies, not a weak, underdeveloped rodent.

Second, it's not the only way to set up a charge attack. Shield breaks, sleep and grounded states all do that and we've already seen that Pichu now has tripping. My thoughts were that he'd have his tilts and his extra weak, uncharged versions to act as setup but, realistically, even they probably wouldn't gain him enough time.

Still, you're missing a significant factor here. Range.
Skull Bash is a far better more to give the overcooking mechanic to than, say, Up Smash, because Pichu doesn't have to charge it while near an enemy. It doesn't make him as vulnerable.

So what about giving it to his Neutral B? Less projectile size and damage than Pikachu on its base version, more on its fully charged version and damage only on that last one?
What if Pichu could mash Down B to widen his lightning bolt, increasing its hitbox size very slightly and causing it to self-harm on contact like the version he currently has? What if, as a tradeoff for taking more damage, the hitbox he puts out when hit would be bigger and deal more damage, too.
What if, if Pichu hit the ground with his D-Air, it sent out a static shockwave of the same damage he took, causing minimal knockback that would negate that of the aerial portion of the attack (if both hit) and putting enemies into hitstun for a quick followup?

Personally, I'm highly in favour of at least the last one because it's pretty awesome in Melee mods.
 

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#31
For the most part, I think that to compensate for the damage penalty that Pichu receives, its attacks would pack a greater punch than Pikachu's attacks. They don't necessarily have to deal more damage, as they could instead deal greater knockback.
 
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#32
For the most part, I think that to compensate for the damage penalty that Pichu receives, its attacks would pack a greater punch than Pikachu's attacks. They don't necessarily have to deal more damage, as they could instead deal greater knockback.
They could also compensate by making Pichu extremely hard to hit. Tiny frame and higher speed than Pikachu (at least I imagine that's what they were going for in Melee), plus an Agility that covers a massive distance.
 

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#33
Perhaps Pichu should just have greater hitstun on its electric moves? Make it able to punish and combo better? Higher speed? Properties for moves that favor advantageous hitboxes, launch angles, shield damage or follow up potential? Add ZSS Paralyzer properties to multiple moves? Increase Pichu's weight to make it closer to Pikachus? Strong edgeguarding options like Puff? Longer reaching recovery?

I mean, there are a multitude of ways to make Pichu a viable character besides making it outright stronger than Pikachu or way faster.
 
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#34
Pichu isn't a joke character. He's a salt factory. Designed to make everyone around you hate you in that rare instance that you're able to beat them with Pichu.
 

1FC0

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#35
Pichu isn't a joke character. He's a salt factory. Designed to make everyone around you hate you in that rare instance that you're able to beat them with Pichu.
Why would someone hate losing to Pichu aside from the fact that Pichu is bad? Even his projectile is not that annoying considering it's relatively high cost.
 
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#36
Every time a joke character is added I physically lose a year of my life. Honestly Pichu should be an echo of Pikacu, and for that matter, Dr. Mario an echo of Mario and Young Link an echo of Toon Link.
 

1FC0

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#37
Every time a joke character is added I physically lose a year of my life. Honestly Pichu should be an echo of Pikacu, and for that matter, Dr. Mario an echo of Mario and Young Link an echo of Toon Link.
Why would you want Dr. Mario and Young Link to be an echo? Also Young Link came before Toon Link so if one of them is to be an echo of the other then Toon Link should be an echo of Young Link.
 
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#38
Why would you want Dr. Mario and Young Link to be an echo? Also Young Link came before Toon Link so if one of them is to be an echo of the other then Toon Link should be an echo of Young Link.
I want them to be echoes because their either clones or semi clones, as long as their moveset is inspired by one another I think they should be clones. 2 Marios and 3 Links is more than enough.
 

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#39
Pichu should be an echo of Pikacu, and for that matter, Dr. Mario an echo of Mario and Young Link an echo of Toon Link.
They can't.

Dr. Mario has a few unique attacks that Mario doesn't, and I'm including Down B; additionally, as of Smash 4, they possess vastly different physics.

Pichu and Young Link have notably different sizes than Pikachu and Link/Toon Link, which makes just pasting a new model over the existing skeleton impossible.

Toon Link also uses attacks not used by either Link, and Adult Link has new attacks in this game. Thus, Young Link acts as a way to keep the classic Link moveset mostly intact.

I want them to be echoes because their either clones or semi clones, as long as their moveset is inspired by one another I think they should be clones.
You do realize clones/semi-clones are just easier to make than unique characters, right? And being such does not deter them from bringing something new to the table.

2 Marios and 3 Links is more than enough.
Technically, we have 4 Marths (:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom:), 3 Marios (:ultmario::ultluigi::ultdoc:), 3 Links (:ultlink::ultyounglink::ulttoonlink:), 2 Peaches (:ultpeach::ultdaisy:), 2 Samuses (:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:), 2 Pikachus (:ultpikachu::ultpichu:) and 2 Simons (:ultsimon::ultrichter:), so I guess it's a bit too late :awesome:
 
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Downshift

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#40
Pichu takes recoil damage for all its electric moves, while other characters have recoil damage for usually just a single move in their moveset, and it's for really powerful moves, like Roy and Ike's neutral B, and Charizard's Flare Blitz, the idea being that the moves are so potent that they damage the user as well, which isn't that new of an idea. Meanwhile, Pichu takes recoil damage for almost all of his moves, and they aren't even that powerful. So by making them more powerful, it would justify the recoil damage, while also making him a more interesting character to play and fight. He'd deal more damage and have more kill potential, but his damage would constantly go up as well, making it still a tricky and risky character to play as, instead of just being a mostly inferior version of Pikachu.
As a fan of the mainline pokemon handheld RPG games, but not the anime, I don't think Pichu, Jiggs or even Pikachu have any business in a fighting game alongside Link, Samus, Ganon, Ike, Lucario, Bowser, Charizard and especially Mewtwo. Just like Braixen and definitely Croagunk have no business in Pokken Tournament DX. They can't compete in their home games, so they should all be joke characters.
The problem is having a joke character in a competitive game like this when they're unrealistically balanced to be as good or better than clearly superior characters from their own games. A pikachu should never have a chance against a Mewtwo. Joke characters should be intentially low tier and used as handicap or swag picks as stated earlier. If that's the case, then I have no issue with them.
 
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