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Jab -> Dsmash

ArcPoint

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I've heard this works. Any frame date to back it up?

I honestly never believed it, but then I figured out that Wolf's jab has variable knockback (Unlike people like Falco or Snake) which means frame advantage can change throughout the stock...

So, at what percents on which characters does Wolf have frame advantage with jab?
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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Isn't there some sort of formula for calculating hitstun? We should ask someone who's in the Workshop for the data, iirc Samus can do a jab > fsmash, which means we should be able to pull off something similar, or at LEAST jab grab.

:059:
 

~ Gheb ~

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Sometimes a jab can combo into another move depending on the opponent's position. This is true not only for Wolf but also for other characters. If you jab an opponent who's slightly off the ground/just about to land on the ground you will have a certain amount of frame advantage after the jab. This is the case because they'll be in their landing animation, which will have either 2 frames ("soft" landing) or 6 frames ("hard" landing) lag. Depending on the frame advantage you get from hitting your opponent with jab1 it's very possible that a following dsmash is guaranteed.

I know that this works for Luigi. His jab1 -> upB is guaranteed in the right circumstantces. Once you understand how this mechanic works you'll see when jab1-> other move will work for a character. Snake can also jab1 -> utilt or jab1 -> ftilt if he hits the opponent right and I'm sure that those aren't the only characters who can do that. In a nutshell there are 3 conditions:

1.) The opponent's position (slightly off the ground)
2.) The amount of hitstun you get from jab1
3.) The startup lag from the following move

The amount of hitstun of Wolf's jab is pretty high. This is evidently the case as Wolf's AAA can't be interrupted by anything (even moves like Shuttle Loop or Dolphin Slash won't do it) once he lands the first hit. The Dsmash also hits on the 6th or 7th frame, which is quite fast. If you add the landing lag of a character it seems very likely that jab1 -> dsmash is a true combo as long as condition (1.) is met.
This would also mean that jab1 comboes into everything that's at least as fast as dsmash if condition (1.) is met.

:059:
 

-Jumpman-

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Jab isn't that much faster than d-smash, what's the point. Unless Wolf's jab has an awesome frame advantage, just use d-smash.
 

Seagull Joe

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I've heard this works. Any frame date to back it up?

I honestly never believed it, but then I figured out that Wolf's jab has variable knockback (Unlike people like Falco or Snake) which means frame advantage can change throughout the stock...

So, at what percents on which characters does Wolf have frame advantage with jab?
I've been using this combo forever. They can powershield the dsmash and they usually do. Jab comes out on frame 4. Dsmash comes out on frame 8. Wolf's jab is considerably slower then most jabs in the game. It also isn't very ranged compared to like Falco's godly jab.
 

ArcPoint

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@Jumpman, a 4 frame move is CONSIDERABLY easier to hit with than an 8 frame move.

@Gheb Jab1 ending animation can be interrupted by jab2 considerably sooner than with any other move (i.e. Dsmash) so there's a different frame advantage between when you can start jab2 and when you can start any other move, you actually have to wait longer to start any other move. And yes, if they're in the air they suffer the extra landing lag. Omniswell told me once that at higher percents (Due to the variable knockback, which other people like Snake and Falco don't have) jab1 will actually lift them off of the ground, which gives you the frames needed for a Dsmash. That's what I want to test. The frame advantage Wolf has after his jab at certain percents (And even on certain characters, as MK at 100% might be more liable to lift off the ground than bowser at 150%).

@Seagull. You probably haven't been using the "combo" just the mix-up -- I don't even know that it's a for sure combo. Jab -> Dsmash is great just as a mixup (assuming they don't jab you out of it <3). The thing I'm wondering if it actually is a GUARANTEED combo at certain percents/with certain characters.
 

Seagull Joe

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@Jumpman, a 4 frame move is CONSIDERABLY easier to hit with than an 8 frame move.

@Gheb Jab1 ending animation can be interrupted by jab2 considerably sooner than with any other move (i.e. Dsmash) so there's a different frame advantage between when you can start jab2 and when you can start any other move, you actually have to wait longer to start any other move. And yes, if they're in the air they suffer the extra landing lag. Omniswell told me once that at higher percents (Due to the variable knockback, which other people like Snake and Falco don't have) jab1 will actually lift them off of the ground, which gives you the frames needed for a Dsmash. That's what I want to test. The frame advantage Wolf has after his jab at certain percents (And even on certain characters, as MK at 100% might be more liable to lift off the ground than bowser at 150%).

@Seagull. You probably haven't been using the "combo" just the mix-up -- I don't even know that it's a for sure combo. Jab -> Dsmash is great just as a mixup (assuming they don't jab you out of it <3). The thing I'm wondering if it actually is a GUARANTEED combo at certain percents/with certain characters.
Yeah combo is probably the wrong word. I guess string/mindgame makes more sense. If you can find it guarentees combo any character at any percent possible lemme know Arcy. That'd be coolllllllllllll.
 

LiL.Will

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I've noticed at high percents characters who sort of "float" in the air tend to pop up from Wolf's jab, not saying that it is a guaranteed setup...just saying I've seen this alot try doing it on Jigglypuff or some other "floating" character basically.
 

Turbo Ether

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Yeah combo is probably the wrong word. I guess string/mindgame makes more sense.
I believe the correct term would be "Reset".

Yes, folks, Jab1 does lift people off the ground a bit. Seems like it depends on how the opponent DIs the Jab1. There has to be someone on this board that can determine if the lift gives enough frames to land a Dsmash.
 

ArcPoint

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I wish I had my 60 fps camera back... and yeah, that's a good point that DI could be a big factor.

Hey pie (PI2), could you do this? I'm sure there's that one frame hack where you press Z or something to advance the game frame by frame.

I really wanna know, as doubtful as I am of this.
 

indigestible_wad

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Isn't there some sort of formula for calculating hitstun? We should ask someone who's in the Workshop for the data, iirc Samus can do a jab > fsmash, which means we should be able to pull off something similar, or at LEAST jab grab.

:059:
That works if the opponent is in the air. If the opponent is on the ground, the hitstun is so minimal that they can easily powershield the second jab, letalone a forward smash.
 

RATED

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That works if the opponent is in the air. If the opponent is on the ground, the hitstun is so minimal that they can easily powershield the second jab, letalone a forward smash.
yes , when some jabs hits a opponent it can combo to some moves examples : Snake 1st jab to Uptilt in that situation in bold.
 

tekkie

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why would dsmash be a good followup? if staling is a problem, ftilt has the same startup frames, fsmash/utilt are a frame earlier.
 

rvkevin

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Its meant to be a KO setup. Otherwise AAA is good for damage, refreshing moves, etc.
 

tekkie

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Its meant to be a KO setup. Otherwise AAA is a good for damage, refreshing moves, etc.
but if it's a true combo, A > utilt, ftilt, etc. would be better for damage and possibly refreshing moves than AAA. maybe we should discuss that as well.
 

castorpollux

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a-> dsmash only works at high percents caz floaty characters get knocked up a lil. I've landed this on turtle's terrible marth last saturday and he was trying to up B out of it
 

Ishiey

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why would dsmash be a good followup? if staling is a problem, ftilt has the same startup frames, fsmash/utilt are a frame earlier.
Jab > utilt being guaranteed would make my life complete, but you'd have to get them pretty close for it to work :<

:059:
 

ArcPoint

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Well the idea is that since Wolf's jab has variable knockback (Not set, like Falco's or Snake) the higher percent they have, the farther they get sent and thus they might have landing lag to deal with which might make Jab -> Dsmash a true combo at higher percents...which is when you want a Dsmash...
 

A2ZOMG

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From what I can tell, Wolf's Jab cancel is horrible just because people can react out of it so easily.
 
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