It's starting to seem that Sakurai has played Project M.

[RODO]

And is maybe taking some cues from it too. Here is a list of things that are similar to PM:

-Skyloft is probably the most obvious, though it functions like Delfino in Smash 4
-Charizard now being his own entity as well as character transformations being gone to focus on individual characters. Other than Zelda still transforming in PM I can't help but remember how hyped everyone was for PM Charizard and this just doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.
-A few moves seem to either be taken directly from PM or were inspired by PM. Some examples are DK's dash attack being changed to the roll that is in PM, WFT having a move that powers up her attacks similar to Lucas in PM, Lucario having a hit box on his up special just like in PM, and Greninja sharing PM ZSS's down air that bounces off of opponents. Also, toning down Pit's recovery but I'm sure that was just a glaring flaw that needed to be taken care of anyway.

This is just a few things off the top of my head without really delving too deep to see what else I can find. This could all be coincidence or it could be that Sakurai is actually acknowledging the game and finds some of the ideas good enough to use.
If you guys see any more similarities point them out for me.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I figure we would have gotten Skyloft regardless, it's a pretty obvious choice for a Skyward Sword stage.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

I would think of Sakurai as someone who would be offended by Project M. "Like all my hard work on Brawl wasn't good enough!?"

But maybe he is a good sport and took cues from the players. I'd imagine all the changes made in PM were discovered to be necessary or useful after millions had thoroughly played Brawl and could compile all its micro-flaws. Maybe Sakurai values that because it's like having millions of playtesters for him.

Or maybe it's all coincidence.

 

[Pokemon Trainer Alan]

I really hope shoryuken can be lucarios move like PM. But maybe I'm getting my hopes up.

 

[QuickRat]

Don't know if he already played it, but what we know is both Smash community and Sora, Ltd. have come to the same conclusions... Changes on stages, balanced movesets, no-transforms, costumes... As I say, it's impossible to know if Saku played PM, but it's irrelevant. What matters is that Saku and PMBR think similar in some really importants aspects of Smash competitivity. And that is really good for people like us, because maybe Smash 4 is a very good chance for comp. scene.

 

[Shakyy]

He definently knows about Project M, but I don't think he's actually sat down and played it, I could be wrong. I'd say he's looked at fan criticism and made a few changes based on that.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm quite sure that he's aware of PM and has watched a few matches at the very least. I mean a mod that almost has half a million downloads and receives media coverage from top gaming sites around the web surely doesn't go around unnoticed. Not to mention it has become the 2nd most popular competitive Smash in the last year, attendance even surpassing Melee at some events.

Like Sabrewulf said, I think that Skyloft would have already been made, regardless of PM.

As far as moveset changes, I'd say that Sakurai has taken a few inspirations from the PMBR's work in what concerns the viability of some moves and balance. So far, a few similarities have caught my attention, such as Zard's new fair resembling the PM one.

Personally, I don't think that he would be offended by PM. On the contrary, I'd say that he'd be amused and interested by what a Smash game made by the community would look like. I'm sure that he'd also be baffled at how far it's come as a mod.

 

[Shakyy]

Yeah, I also took note on DK now having his country roll which he also has in Project M, there is probably heaps of similarities and he probably based a small proportion of the game on project M, seeing as its what a lot of the fans want.

 

[skstylez]

And is maybe taking some cues from it too. Here is a list of things that are similar to PM:

-Skyloft is probably the most obvious, though it functions like Delfino in Smash 4
-Charizard now being his own entity as well as character transformations being gone to focus on individual characters. Other than Zelda still transforming in PM I can't help but remember how hyped everyone was for PM Charizard and this just doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.
-A few moves seem to either be taken directly from PM or were inspired by PM. Some examples are DK's dash attack being changed to the roll that is in PM, WFT having a move that powers up her attacks similar to Lucas in PM, Lucario having a hit box on his up special just like in PM, and Greninja sharing PM ZSS's down air that bounces off of opponents. Also, toning down Pit's recovery but I'm sure that was just a glaring flaw that needed to be taken care of anyway.

This is just a few things off the top of my head without really delving too deep to see what else I can find. This could all be coincidence or it could be that Sakurai is actually acknowledging the game and finds some of the ideas good enough to use.
If you guys see any more similarities point them out for me.

-No, this was being developed far before
-All transformations are gone to add to movesets and because players really don't switch during a match. That's not what project M did... they separated forced transformations.
-All of the moves you stated were balance issues, and things like Greninja's dair are more similar to Bison stomp if anything. Stop thinking that anything in project M is invented by them. The DK roll maybe, but that also has to do with DKC being popular again.

The only thing I see him taking cues from are the alternate costumes, though he already started that in Brawl so...

 

[Steelia]

I would think of Sakurai as someone who would be offended by Project M. "Like all my hard work on Brawl wasn't good enough!?"

Last I heard, Sakurai was extremely impressed by all the mods floating around that fans have made, so I don't think it bothers him much. He sounds more amused by it if anything.

ot, good chance most of these changes are coincidental. DK's roll was bound to show up eventually, especially with most fans bringing it up (and being revived in recent DKC entries). Skyward Sword is a recent entry, with Skyloft being an iconic environment from the game. Many people preferred the idea of Charizard going solo, and with transformations out of the way, he was a no-brainer keeper from the trio. Can't speak for things like reminiscent moves, but again, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to lift ideas from a fan project. He's innovative.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Even if he has played it, I don't think he can ever officially say he has. That'd be akin in many ways to endorsing it and Nintendo would not like that.

Still, it is possible he's taking some cues unofficially. PM has some downright genius ideas.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I honestly think both sakurai and the PM makers just took inspiration from the same things.
E.G. DK's roll attack being a relevant move due to his games.

 

[PadWarrior]

I doubt he played that fan project. It's possible he thought of the ideas himself.

 

[Speculator]

I honestly think both sakurai and the PM makers just took inspiration from the same things.
E.G. DK's roll attack being a relevant move due to his games.

Yes, this. Skyloft is a natural choice for a new Zelda stage. Changes to DK and Pit are simply about making those characters feel more like their games; DK has been around since SSB64, when making the characters work in a fighting game was more important than making them feel true to their origins. Pit has had a new game since Brawl which now comprises a third of his series - his new takeoff mechanic is inspired by how he takes off in Uprising. These things are just maintenance.

I don't think the seperation of the transformation characters was really what they wanted to do. It feels more to me that transformation just had too many flaws to try and balance properly. Not only did the characters need to be loaded from the disc, but in a game centered around chargeable smash attacks characters were just too vulnerable coming out of the switch. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling that the removal of the transformation mechanic is the result of Namco's influence and experience with traditional fighting games.

I think most of this is just the result of Sakurai making an attempt to appease as many people as possible. He had this to say at E3;

And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.

So now, for this time around, we're sort of aiming for something that is in between those as far as the speed of the game. Because I don't really think this time we're in a situation where we're trying to accommodate that many new players.

So really, I think any apparent similarities to Project M are really just indications that the game is heading more towards the middle ground between Melee and Brawl. A great deal of Brawl was designed very much with the larger Wii audience in mind. The Wii U and 3DS have much more concentrated install bases, so the game feels more focused.

 

[Smash G]

I think all of those were painfully obvious choices and it doesn't mean jack squat on if Sakurai has played it.

Skyloft was obvious.
Donkey Kong using his classic roll is obvious.
Charizard being his own character is obvious.

It's parallel evolution. If 100 teams were developing their own Smash Bros without any interaction with the other teams a lot of them would to those things.

 

[Renji64]

I don't think sakurai played P:M he may have seen it.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

You have to remember that Sakurai lives in Japan and correct me if I'm wrong but PM has no relavance in Japan.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I can assure you, Sakurai has more than likely played/reviewed P:M. Even if he hated it with a passion, as a good Game Developer you must keep a good understanding of your target audience.

And for those that don't necessarily agree with a lot of Sakurai's decisions, you can't deny that he is a good lead developer. So for him to make such an amateur mistake and ignore such study material (whether it influenced his decisions or not) just doesn't add up. I mean, if the community feels the need to hack the game in such a way to make it more accurate to the subject matter as well as more competitively viable than at least one red flag should pop up.

 

[N3ON]

Let's not forget Sakurai likely made a lot of these decisions a good... two years ago, or almost two years ago. Back then even if the same elements were in that version of P:M, P:M itself was a lot less prolific than it is now.

 

[CroonerMike]

I really do not think he cares about a fan made piece of crap.

 

[ZombieBran]

I don't think2 he even knows PM exists, tbh. We like to think it's a huge mod (because it's a wonderful one) but in the grand scheme of things, it's still fairly niche.

 

[Spazzy_D]

It's more likely that Brawl had some pretty obvious problems that both the Project M Team and Sakurai saw fit to address in their respective games.

 

[Jaklub]

I really do not think he cares about a fan made piece of crap.

that's very respectful

 

[The Slayer]

I really do not think he cares about a fan made piece of crap.

I'm not a fan of the mod, but even I would wonder how it would play and just take a few notes from it. It's like an digital artist that may not like his/her artwork being relined, but would understand that they have anatomy problems that most people would recognized and may take them into consideration for future pieces.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I really do not think he cares about a fan made piece of crap.

So I see you've never played it before. Care to explain yourself before someone reports you for trolling/baiting etc?

 

[DaDavid]

People keep saying that, but I don't know... I find it more likely that some of these changes are just the logical conclusion when thinking about changes to make to characters.

You'd think that if he drew from Project M, the For Glory mode would have been more of a hazard switch than a pure FD mode.

 

[BigHairyFart]

...and Greninja sharing PM ZSS's down air that bounces off of opponents.

This is a common misconception that I see. If you slow down the trailer, you can see the little circles under Greninja that denote him using a midair jump.

 

[smashbro29]

but that also has to do with DKC being popular again.

DKC was also popular in 1999 and again 2001 with DK64.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is a common misconception that I see. If you slow down the trailer, you can see the little circles under Greninja that denote him using a midair jump.

So wait...He has a jump cancelable Dair?

****ing dope.

 

[Eight Melodies]

They very likely just had similar ideas.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I think all of those were painfully obvious choices and it doesn't mean jack squat on if Sakurai has played it.

Skyloft was obvious.
Donkey Kong using his classic roll is obvious.
Charizard being his own character is obvious.

It's parallel evolution. If 100 teams were developing their own Smash Bros without any interaction with the other teams a lot of them would to those things.

DK using his roll was obvious ever since smash 64. i can't believe it took more than, what.. around 15 years to implement that

 

[RODO]

-No, this was being developed far before
-All transformations are gone to add to movesets and because players really don't switch during a match. That's not what project M did... they separated forced transformations.
-All of the moves you stated were balance issues, and things like Greninja's dair are more similar to Bison stomp if anything. Stop thinking that anything in project M is invented by them. The DK roll maybe, but that also has to do with DKC being popular again.

The only thing I see him taking cues from are the alternate costumes, though he already started that in Brawl so...

-Fairly certain PM was in development before Smash 4 or at least around the same time. Regardless, PM has been out and Smash 4 is still development meaning Sakurai can easily take things from it if he wants.
-I was mainly talking about how Project M took a character like Pokemon trainer, split the pokemon, and instead focused on individualizing them. Smash 4 had a similar focus regardless of whether it was taken from PM or not.
-Even if moves didn't originate from a smash game, the PM team brought those moves to a Smash game before Sakurai. If he took inspiration from them then who cares?

Try not to counter my points just for the sake of countering my points.

 

[DaDavid]

If he took inspiration from them then who cares?

That's the thing though, there's really nothing to suggest that that's the case.

All the changes I've noticed that are similar between the two seem like obvious, logical steps towards balance. The fact that they both did it is to me more telling of how much the changes make sense then whether one drew from the other or not.

Like I said earlier, I feel like if he'd actually made himself aware of Project M and taken notes from it, For Glory mode wouldn't have ended up FD only and the changes would be less obvious. Something like DK's roll and transformations for example just make too much sense for me to necessarily think that he would not have come up with those ideas all by himself.

Not to take anything away from Project M though. They've done some great stuff for the scene and I admire anyone who takes to work fixing what they don't like instead of complaining.

 

[Pazzo.]

PM is made for the Competitive Fans (Melee) and SSB4 is trying to cater to both Brawl and Melee fans, so some PM similarities will arise. Really, a Brawl + Melee is the 'best of both worlds', like PM is creating.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Also, as I understand it they legally cannot take ideas verbatim from PM due to potential IP rights conflicts. Nor can they acknowledge doing so.

 

[RODO]

That's the thing though, there's really nothing to suggest that that's the case.

All the changes I've noticed that are similar between the two seem like obvious, logical steps towards balance. The fact that they both did it is to me more telling of how much the changes make sense then whether one drew from the other or not.

Like I said earlier, I feel like if he'd actually made himself aware of Project M and taken notes from it, For Glory mode wouldn't have ended up FD only and the changes would be less obvious. Something like DK's roll and transformations for example just make too much sense for me to necessarily think that he would not have come up with those ideas all by himself.

Not to take anything away from Project M though. They've done some great stuff for the scene and I admire anyone who takes to work fixing what they don't like instead of complaining.

DK's roll might have made sense but it sure took them long enough to implement it. You could even argue that a lot of the things in Brawl weren't "obvious" but they were done anyway. I also think that it could all be a coincidence but I think it is just as likely that it could be a nod to the PM team. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Chandeelure]

Charizard's new Forward Air! but without fire

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't think anything is really taken from Project M. Stuff like the transformation change is probably for very different reasons than you're imagining (it's probably for technical reasons primarily; in-match loading was a big problem in Brawl and was probably even more severe in early builds of smash 4). Stuff like DK having a roll (iconic DKC move) instead of his pretty much useless Melee and Brawl dash attack or Skyloft being a stage at all or some character in the game having a move that powers up other moves is a little obvious to really attribute to Project M. In terms of gameplay design, it doesn't really seem like smash 4 is anything like Project M; the way characters behave and the general style of balance is just completely different. I'm sure Sakurai knows Project M exists, but I really doubt he looked to it for any ideas at all.

 

[BigHairyFart]

So wait...He has a jump cancelable Dair?

****ing dope.

I'm not sure about jump cancel-able, my thought was it just had very low endlag. Now, a jump cancel is entirely possible, so we shouldn't rule it out just yet. Besides, who knows, maybe that's going to be one of those little-but-huge changes. Imagine if all aerials were jump cancel-able...

 

[GreenReaperGod]

I can already sense a Project B. No matter how hard Sakurai tries there's always that group of people who hate his efforts.