Item Legality Poll

[Ryuga]

ITEM LEGALITY!!?

 

[LiteralGrill]

ITEM LEGALITY!!?

Ya heard!

I'm seeing a lot more "it should still be tested" here then expected, though I'm also seeing a scary amount of misinformation. Either way, it's good to discuss.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I wouldn't exactly compare the randomness of items in Smash to the randomness of your hand in Poker. The player's advantages and disadvantages are concealed because Poker players are almost entirely playing under a veil of ignorance, hence the necessary ability called bluffing. You don't bluff in Smash when your opponent gets "dealt a better hand" through item placement because you can't for your opponent knows he has the advantage and he also knows that YOU know you don't have the advantage. Playing through those two situations is completely and utterly different.

Also, does anyone want a fighting game to be like playing a standard card game? Truly?

I'm not a competitive player nor have much knowledge regarding the scene, I'm just putting in my two cents on what has been stated from a logical standpoint.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I wouldn't exactly compare the randomness of items in Smash to the randomness of your hand in Poker. The player's advantages and disadvantages are concealed because Poker players are almost entirely playing under a veil of ignorance, hence the necessary ability called bluffing. You don't bluff in Smash when your opponent gets "dealt a better hand" through item placement because you can't for your opponent knows he has the advantage and he also knows that YOU know you don't have the advantage. Playing through those two situations is completely and utterly different.

Also, does anyone want a fighting game to be like playing a standard card game? Truly?

I'm not a competitive player nor have much knowledge regarding the scene, I'm just putting in my two cents on what has been stated from a logical standpoint.

I think a good question is "how much randomness is acceptable" in this case.

G&W has a hammer, we got turnips/bob-ombs/beam swords, and a bunch of other random moves. We've deemed these acceptable. Some people deem the randomness of items as also acceptable. Either way it creates a very different game and DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE THE POOR POORER.

as well as the fact the faster characters are inherently the best characters usually, and giving them items just makes them stronger.

Basically, items are random (which thus is anti-competitive; if you want to play it casually, then fine.), items don't add anything, items cause enhanced camping, items make standard attacks typically obsolete, items cause matches to become needlessly longer more often than not, and items almost always make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I find it funny, because almost everyone pushing for that isn't a competitive player... like at all.

Caught this when you got quoted again. You ever see Ganon with items? A LOT of characters that are poor get major buffs, new ATs, an ability to aproach, and I can't speak for all matches, but the majority of Brawl matches I've seen with items GO FASTER. Considering the crap Brawl gets from people and how hard it can be on streams sometimes with such long matches, it might be BETTER for spectators.

And hey, if there were tons of events for items all the time, and they weren't regarded as just bad or only worth side events, those who advocate for it might be competing IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

Have you watched/studied ISP? Just curious. I've played quite a bit of it. It's very different, it's not always my favorite thing, but to think it take no skill or just makes the game completely unplayable or unfair is a crazy notion.

 

[mimgrim]

Caught this when you got quoted again. You ever see Ganon with items? A LOT of characters that are poor get major buffs, new ATs, an ability to aproach, and I can't speak for all matches, but the majority of Brawl matches I've seen with items GO FASTER. Considering the crap Brawl gets from people and how hard it can be on streams sometimes with such long matches, it might be BETTER for spectators.

I don't like this. Most of the people who end up bashing Brawl, be as a spectator otherwise, are, more often the not, Melee enthusiasts who, usually, don't understand the deeper parts of the meta game.

Just look at this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/why-is-brawl-not-being-streamed-this-apex.346155/

Most of the people harp on Brawl and praise Melee and most, if not all, are Melee only players and don't understand the deeper parts of Brawl. Those who actually play Brawl and enjoy it actually enjoy spectating Brawl as it is.

Why pamper to a crowd that absolutely hates the game no matter what?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't like this. Most of the people who end up bashing Brawl, be as a spectator otherwise, are, more often the not, Melee enthusiasts who, usually, don't understand the deeper parts of the meta game.

Just look at this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/why-is-brawl-not-being-streamed-this-apex.346155/

Most of the people harp on Brawl and praise Melee and most, if not all, are Melee only players and don't understand the deeper parts of Brawl. Those who actually play Brawl and enjoy it actually enjoy spectating Brawl as it is.

Why pamper to a crowd that absolutely hates the game no matter what?

Oh I wasn't trying to refer to them, they are a lost cause. I'm talking about fans of Brawl itself who were even complaining about grand finals and so much Mk this year. Last year with Salem and ZSS had more viewers (if I remember right) and part of that is even the fans of Brawl weren't as excited with what finals looked like this year (though partially also because of how the streaming of it was all wack I'll admit). I can't know if items would have solved a lot of problems Brawl has with being slow at times, I've just seen things sped up with items, know they can allow for some more variety as well. We'll never know what life might be like for Brawl fans had they embraced something different.

That's why I'd still like to at least see testing done again. Who knows how different the game might have been had we given it an honest shot from the start. I know it's hard on Jack as even though he's studied items SO much:

Seriously, people STILL arguing that Brawl spawns items near the loser, or that proper item lists promote camping, or that properly tested items are unbalanced and overcentralizing, regardless of the MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary?.

So who knows? We can't know if people wont test, wont even give it a shot, wont look at whatever is thrown right in front of them. The game may have even been better then what it is now (I know of other things like this too, like changing other settings, having 1 stock food rulesets, all kinds of things that everyone just said no to no mater what, it's sad...)

And if people are that confident no one will like what the testing shows when it's done, why are they so adamant against it being done? That part confuses me a tad. (That's not directed at you, just a thought I had.)

EDIT: I'm getting different numbers in different places, but it looks like depending on who you talk to there were either more or less Brawl viewers then last year, so if I said anything incorrect about viewers I apologize.

 

[Ryuga]

So are we leaning towards a counterpick your opponents with items thing!? Like a strategy game where some items can counter others?

 

[LiteralGrill]

So are we leaning towards a counterpick your opponents with items thing!? Like a strategy game where some items can counter others?

You'd need to elaborate a lot more on this. For here, it was just to see about testing them.

 

[mimgrim]

Oh I wasn't trying to refer to them, they are a lost cause. I'm talking about fans of Brawl itself who were even complaining about grand finals and so much Mk this year. Last year with Salem and ZSS had more viewers (if I remember right) and part of that is even the fans of Brawl weren't as excited with what finals looked like this year (though partially also because of how the streaming of it was all wack I'll admit). I can't know if items would have solved a lot of problems Brawl has with being slow at times, I've just seen things sped up with items, know they can allow for some more variety as well. We'll never know what life might be like for Brawl fans had they embraced something different.

That's why I'd still like to at least see testing done again. Who knows how different the game might have been had we given it an honest shot from the start. I know it's hard on Jack as even though he's studied items SO much:

Thing is MK is an independent problem from items. The additions of items in competitive Brawl wouldn't make MK any less popular or less saturated at tourneys, he is the best character in the game for a reason. If the don't like Mk, then, to put it frankly, they are either playing the wrong game or their region pampers them by banning MK, in which case they won't be up to the par they should be due to how popular MK is everywhere else.

 

[Ryuga]

You'd need to elaborate a lot more on this. For here, it was just to see about testing them.

Ah, I see...

 

[LiteralGrill]

Thing is MK is an independent problem from items. The additions of items in competitive Brawl wouldn't make MK any less popular or less saturated at tourneys, he is the best character in the game for a reason. If the don't like Mk, then, to put it frankly, they are either playing the wrong game or their region pampers them by banning MK, in which case they won't be up to the par they should be due to how popular MK is everywhere else.

It's true he is, and MK would still be more popular. But the popularity of other characters may have rose as well, meaning more variety, and a less chance of seeing MK vs MK constantly. It's all conjecture though, obviously I can't prove it as sadly items never got a real shot.

 

[SmashChu]

I wouldn't exactly compare the randomness of items in Smash to the randomness of your hand in Poker. The player's advantages and disadvantages are concealed because Poker players are almost entirely playing under a veil of ignorance, hence the necessary ability called bluffing. You don't bluff in Smash when your opponent gets "dealt a better hand" through item placement because you can't for your opponent knows he has the advantage and he also knows that YOU know you don't have the advantage. Playing through those two situations is completely and utterly different.

Also, does anyone want a fighting game to be like playing a standard card game? Truly?

I'm not a competitive player nor have much knowledge regarding the scene, I'm just putting in my two cents on what has been stated from a logical standpoint.

It doesn't matter whether your opponent know it or not. You can get 2/5 all night while other players get pocket Aces and A/K. The thing is the players have to deal with the luck. The same is true in Smash though it is also easy to regulate as you can chose with items to have and which to not have. Items never substitute for skill as ISP has the best players still winning. It also improves the balance as the top aren't helped as much as the lower characters are.

The point is that this should be at least tested. It's crazy to think that we can't even do something as simple as that. Heck, Melee turned them off because of exploding capsules, not necessarily because of luck.

I don't like this. Most of the people who end up bashing Brawl, be as a spectator otherwise, are, more often the not, Melee enthusiasts who, usually, don't understand the deeper parts of the meta game.

Just look at this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/why-is-brawl-not-being-streamed-this-apex.346155/

Most of the people harp on Brawl and praise Melee and most, if not all, are Melee only players and don't understand the deeper parts of Brawl. Those who actually play Brawl and enjoy it actually enjoy spectating Brawl as it is.

Why pamper to a crowd that absolutely hates the game no matter what?

That's Melee fans for you. You have to remember that, in their mind, Melee is the best thing ever made and no other game will come close.

 

[lordvaati]

I'd prefer to vote for item legality AFTER the games come out, thank you very much.

Can't really judge on something we barely know anything about(but at least not as bad as those already trying to craft a bloody stage list already.)

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd prefer to vote for item legality AFTER the games come out, thank you very much.

Can't really judge on something we barely know anything about(but at least not as bad as those already trying to craft a bloody stage list already.)

Hey... That hurt

(Jk, but it's still worth doing SOME of the debate ahead off time on what we want/don't want.) But from what you said it's worth waiting until the game is out to at least look at them and not immediately throw them out yes? It seems like you'd like testing at least from what you wrote.

I don't understand why the idea of even testing items is so bad to some people, can someone explain it?

It doesn't matter whether your opponent know it or not. You can get 2/5 all night while other players get pocket Aces and A/K. The thing is the players have to deal with the luck. The same is true in Smash though it is also easy to regulate as you can chose with items to have and which to not have. Items never substitute for skill as ISP has the best players still winning. It also improves the balance as the top aren't helped as much as the lower characters are.
The point is that this should be at least tested. It's crazy to think that we can't even do something as simple as that. Heck, Melee turned them off because of exploding capsules, not necessarily because of luck.

I think a better example then poker is actually Scrabble. Spoiled for those who don't wanna read:

Spoiler

There are many games that have high-stakes with huge cash prizes that rely heavily on luck, the prime example being Poker, but the one I want to mention is Scrabble. Yes you read right, Scrabble.

In Scrabble, the Z is actually rather broken as it has many uses but is still worth 10 points. The largest complaint for items in smash is that no player with money on he line is going to risk losing a match to an item spawn. My question is, does a pro Scrabble player complain when in the finals his opponent gets a Z at just the right time even though he has lost out on a LOT more money than the Smash player has? No.

There is more to Scrabble then just coming up with words and finding a spot for them on the board. Those two skills are very important obviously, no player will become a successful pro without being able to deal with the over-arching element to the game: minimizing the effects of bad luck, and maximizing the effects of your good luck.

When thinking of item play, it's more important than thinking whether items are unfair or not, it's how interesting the game is made of minimizing the bad luck and maximizing the good luck. Yes, an item could give someone an advantage for no reason, but that doesn't mean they need to be banned. Part of the flow of the game should be how the opponent then survives that luck, keeps fighting, and hopes for the next bit of fortune to be theirs, and to utilize it when this happens.

Tldr; Many other high-stakes games rely on the flow of luck, and there is no reason we can't play for money and have the same features.

Or if you hate Scrabble, try to replace it with Pokemon, there are a lot of similarities.

(P.S. I did copy/paste this from another thread in case you recognize it)

 

[Morbi]

Hey... That hurt

(Jk, but it's still worth doing SOME of the debate ahead off time on what we want/don't want.) But from what you said it's worth waiting until the game is out to at least look at them and not immediately throw them out yes? It seems like you'd like testing at least from what you wrote.

I don't understand why the idea of even testing items is so bad to some people, can someone explain it?



I think a better example then poker is actually Scrabble. Spoiled for those who don't wanna read:

Spoiler

There are many games that have high-stakes with huge cash prizes that rely heavily on luck, the prime example being Poker, but the one I want to mention is Scrabble. Yes you read right, Scrabble.

In Scrabble, the Z is actually rather broken as it has many uses but is still worth 10 points. The largest complaint for items in smash is that no player with money on he line is going to risk losing a match to an item spawn. My question is, does a pro Scrabble player complain when in the finals his opponent gets a Z at just the right time even though he has lost out on a LOT more money than the Smash player has? No.

There is more to Scrabble then just coming up with words and finding a spot for them on the board. Those two skills are very important obviously, no player will become a successful pro without being able to deal with the over-arching element to the game: minimizing the effects of bad luck, and maximizing the effects of your good luck.

When thinking of item play, it's more important than thinking whether items are unfair or not, it's how interesting the game is made of minimizing the bad luck and maximizing the good luck. Yes, an item could give someone an advantage for no reason, but that doesn't mean they need to be banned. Part of the flow of the game should be how the opponent then survives that luck, keeps fighting, and hopes for the next bit of fortune to be theirs, and to utilize it when this happens.

Tldr; Many other high-stakes games rely on the flow of luck, and there is no reason we can't play for money and have the same features.

Or if you hate Scrabble, try to replace it with Pokemon, there are a lot of similarities.

(P.S. I did copy/paste this from another thread in case you recognize it)

I know that I can't explain why some people do not want to at least put the effort into testing items. Blatantly banning something that we do not yet comprehend is obviously a moronic idea. Personally, I think it is an obscure form of cognitive decadence. Either way, from experience, items are much more difficult to anticipate and dodge, thus making the meta-game vastly more difficult to grasp. I honestly feel as though items would help make a tier list even more negligible as characters like Ganon can be much more competitive and characters like Meta Knight wouldn't dominate to such an excessive extent. Obviously some items need to be banned, like the invincibility star and whatnot. However, the vast majority of items in the game are not actually that over-powered. I mean, the biggest argument against them is that players are not competent enough to deal with the randomness involved.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd prefer to vote for item legality AFTER the games come out, thank you very much.

Can't really judge on something we barely know anything about(but at least not as bad as those already trying to craft a bloody stage list already.)

I think this is more based on testing than anything, as well as serving as a recap on how ISP has been in the past. But I agree with you it'd be stupid to ban or be in favor of things no one has experienced the feel of yet.

That being said, I don't see what all the butthurt is about if people in this community even test items. Why is that a bad thing? We have already adapted Smash into its own game, without certain stages, techniques, or borderline a character. We have molded a way where Smash works competitively. Who's to say we can't do that with items.

 

[nessokman]

Items create an unbalanced, luck based environment, end of story.

 

[TimeSmash]

So Peach pulling a Stichface, Bob-Omb, or Beam Sword doesn't, G&W potentially having a OHKO move doesn't either? What about Luigi misfires? Those are a little luck based and don't destroy play. I don't think that if ISP were a thing, item frequency would be especially high either. and multiple lists have been made as to which items would make the cut and which wouldn't

 

[nessokman]

So Peach pulling a Stichface, Bob-Omb, or Beam Sword doesn't, G&W potentially having a OHKO move doesn't either? What about Luigi misfires? Those are a little luck based and don't destroy play. I don't think that if ISP were a thing, item frequency would be especially high either. and multiple lists have been made as to which items would make the cut and which wouldn't

Peach's items are pulled directly from her v****a dress. The items YOU are discussing are ones that spawn randomly all over the stage. If you are being knocked sh*tless, and an item spawns behind you to give you an unfair advantage, that's what I'm saying. Peach's items don't spawn randomly on the map, she pulls them out and uses them. It's a lot less random.

Game and watch's OP move only works if it hits. tourney players know of these OP moves and take precautions for them.

 

[SmasherP83]

Ok are we really gonna get into a fight about items either they spawn on maps. Or come out of Peach's dress. Please let's act like normal people and not get into fights about "Pokeballs are OP ASss fawk BA?N EM" <-- dat bad typin lol. Or you know what I mean. I'm not gonna do a wall of text :l.

 

[smashbro29]

I'd like to look at this objectively.

The guns, the fans, the bats that kind of thing maybe you could make a case for that. Maybe.

The Pokeball is downright unfair though, you can get Kyogre or you can get Goldeen. Not really very fair at all.

Assist trophies you could get Starfy or you can get Knuckle Joe. Again, not very fair.

Smash balls you could get Kirby's cooking thing or you could go Super Sonic and kill your opponent twice over.

In a black and white poll like this, ban it to oblivion.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'd like to look at this objectively.

The guns, the fans, the bats that kind of thing maybe you could make a case for that. Maybe.

The Pokeball is downright unfair though, you can get Kyogre or you can get Goldeen. Not really very fair at all.

Assist trophies you could get Starfy or you can get Knuckle Joe. Again, not very fair.

Smash balls you could get Kirby's cooking thing or you could go Super Sonic and kill your opponent twice over.

In a black and white poll like this, ban it to oblivion.

The poll is asking if we should TEST THEM. A lot of people are missing that. The idea is that instead of saying they are banned no matter what, we see if they cause problems first by testing. WE DONT HAVE TO TEST THEM IN EVERY MAJOR EVENT!!! You can go the ISP route of testing where if players don't want to risk it they don't have to. The idea was to see if anyone here still held interest in items (which some do it seems). I'm still confused as to why people are against them being tested ever, I just don't understand.

 

[Morbi]

I don't know, everyone is relying on an appeal to probability fallacy. More likely than not, the community is going to ban items, so why even test it?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't know, everyone is relying on an appeal to probability fallacy. More likely than not, the community is going to ban items, so why even test it?

That has to be it. It sucks as reviving ISP could become a HUGE stepping stone for getting players into tournament play, could give top players a chance for variety if they wanted (M2K actually entered the biggest ISP tournament they had), and we have a handheld console people want to say will have no scene to work with. 3DS smash could be one of the greatest tools for building competitive smash ever by trying things like this yet we're going to ignore it. Think big picture people!

 

[smashbro29]

That has to be it. It sucks as reviving ISP could become a HUGE stepping stone for getting players into tournament play, could give top players a chance for variety if they wanted (M2K actually entered the biggest ISP tournament they had), and we have a handheld console people want to say will have no scene to work with. 3DS smash could be one of the greatest tools for building competitive smash ever by trying things like this yet we're going to ignore it. Think big picture people!

Big picture: If you want to play to win you will. If you don't want to play to win you'll probably play your buddies on your 3DS over WiFi after you get sick of Mario Kart, you won't need the competitive community to bend over and create half assed rule sets. Unless items in this game get a major overhaul and aren't so randomly placed this isn't even a discussion because we tested it for 3 (4 if you include P:M) games and it hasn't worked out.

Running a tournament on 3DS will be a nightmare, especially if you want to broadcast the event. I heard someone recommend camcorders, that is laughable. How will people spectate locally? All huddle around the 2 people playing like someone just got the new Pokemon game in 1998? C'mon people. Think.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Big picture: If you want to play to win you will. If you don't want to play to win you'll probably play your buddies on your 3DS over WiFi after you get sick of Mario Kart, you won't need the competitive community to bend over and create half ***** rule sets. Unless items in this game get a major overhaul and aren't so randomly placed this isn't even a discussion because we tested it for 3 (4 if you include P:M) games and it hasn't worked out.

Running a tournament on 3DS will be a nightmare, especially if you want to broadcast the event. I heard someone recommend camcorders, that is laughable. How will people spectate locally? All huddle around the 2 people playing like someone just got the new Pokemon game in 1998? C'mon people. Think.

Woah. First, ISP took a lot of work and discussion to create for Brawl, it was definitely not half *****. Second, from those who enjoyed items, the testing of items provided an enjoyable ruleset that even the likes of M2K played under for an event. It may not be what the majority of the community uses, but why is it bad to come up with something for those who may want it or if it helps the overall scene, or see what items can do anyways?

The idea of using an ISP ruleset to help ease new players or players that haven't gone to a tournament before into our scene is a great idea capable of adding loads of tournament goers to our scene. More people = more $ in prize pools, more hype, more sponsors, do I go on? Dismissing the possibility, ESPECIALLY considering most people have already said "the 3DS can't/wont have a scene anyways" (you just did as an example) what is the risk of trying it?

And though it's off topic, camcorders if done right can work, but there are also custom 3DSs that can stream (yes they are expensive, but some people have already volunteered them to be used and others are saving to buy them). Wanna watch a match? Put it on a big screen for everyone just like on console! It's not as hard as people seem to think is is. Plus we can run Swiss brackets which will decrease tournament times as well as be player friendly by allowing more matches, even if we cut the top so many players into a double elim. Don't dismiss the 3DS, it has potential.

In short, the kind of attitude you present makes no sense to me and is honestly rather extreme/rude for no reason. :/

 

[smashbro29]

Woah. First, ISP took a lot of work and discussion to create for Brawl, it was definitely not half *****. Second, from those who enjoyed items, the testing of items provided an enjoyable ruleset that even the likes of M2K played under for an event. It may not be what the majority of the community uses, but why is it bad to come up with something for those who may want it or if it helps the overall scene, or see what items can do anyways?

The idea of using an ISP ruleset to help ease new players or players that haven't gone to a tournament before into our scene is a great idea capable of adding loads of tournament goers to our scene. More people = more $ in prize pools, more hype, more sponsors, do I go on? Dismissing the possibility, ESPECIALLY considering most people have already said "the 3DS can't/wont have a scene anyways" (you just did as an example) what is the risk of trying it?

And though it's off topic, camcorders if done right can work, but there are also custom 3DSs that can stream (yes they are expensive, but some people have already volunteered them to be used and others are saving to buy them). Wanna watch a match? Put it on a big screen for everyone just like on console! It's not as hard as people seem to think is is. Plus we can run Swiss brackets which will decrease tournament times as well as be player friendly by allowing more matches, even if we cut the top so many players into a double elim. Don't dismiss the 3DS, it has potential.

In short, the kind of attitude you present makes no sense to me and is honestly rather extreme/rude for no reason. :/

M2K played at one event. Yay... a player who only plays Brawl for the money tried the rules once. I enjoy items, I love that crazy **** but you're delusional if you think items the way they work can really work for competition. They drop at random locations at random times in random quantities. Doesn't matter if it's a fan a bat or a piece of food it's luck not skill.

I don't understand the logic behind setting some items on because the kind of person with the attitude that items should be allowed aren't going to like the "only some items allowed" ruleset much more. Why coddle them? I'm calling it from right now, serious competitors aren't gonna wanna use a handheld with limited control options, you guys act as if the 3DS port isn't just the WiiU game squashed down in resolution with some different stages. You can try it just seems like a waste considering that the WiiU is a thing.

People that play these games competitively do not keep their hands still, the 3DS will thrash about wildly, so no camcorders are far from an optimal solution. It does have potential it's just the console version has infinitely more potential which negates the 3DS's in terms of events. I cannot stress enough, it's same game scaled down, with some different stages (all of which look to be terrible competitively so far by the way).

It's not negative it's realistic.

 

[mimgrim]

Running a tournament on 3DS will be a nightmare, especially if you want to broadcast the event. I heard someone recommend camcorders, that is laughable. How will people spectate locally? All huddle around the 2 people playing like someone just got the new Pokemon game in 1998? C'mon people. Think.

You do know a 3DS can connect to TVs with the right cable don't you?

I'm calling it from right now, serious competitors aren't gonna wanna use a handheld with limited control options, you guys act as if the 3DS port isn't just the WiiU game squashed down in resolution with some different stages. You can try it just seems like a waste considering that the WiiU is a thing..

Smash 3DS would be no more limited then Melee on a GC with only a GCC. If anything it will have more freedom then that even since customizable controls options from Brawl will most likely be kept as a option to use. The Wii-U has more controllers to potentially be used? So what? They are all wireless right now which will hurt SmashU if it continues to be that way. I really don't get what you are getting at with limited control options at is is an extremely flimsy argument, especially if the CPP is allowed to work with it. Honestly if SmashU ends up getting stuck with wireless only controllers I could actually see the 3DS having a bigger scene in all honesty.

I'm not even going to touch the 3DS is just a squashed down version of the Wii-U has there are sooooooo many holes and errors and just general lack of common sense in that argument.

 

[smashbro29]

You do know a 3DS can connect to TVs with the right cable don't you?



Smash 3DS would be no more limited then Melee on a GC with only a GCC. If anything it will have more freedom then that even since customizable controls options from Brawl will most likely be kept as a option to use. The Wii-U has more controllers to potentially be used? So what? They are all wireless right now which will hurt SmashU if it continues to be that way. I really don't get what you are getting at with limited control options at is is an extremely flimsy argument, especially if the CPP is allowed to work with it. Honestly if SmashU ends up getting stuck with wireless only controllers I could actually see the 3DS having a bigger scene in all honesty.

I'm not even going to touch the 3DS is just a squashed down version of the Wii-U has there are sooooooo many holes and errors and just general lack of common sense in that argument.

Please show me this cable.

You could make just about any controller work with a Gamecube/pluggable into a Wii Remote as a CC. A common mod even allows for SF arcade sticks. Pad hacking is cheap, handheld modding is not. Simple, right?

That's my understanding of it. It's the same engine for gameplay, same balance and different stages. That's what they're going for or at the very least it's what I read when they announced it.

 

[mimgrim]

Please show me this cable.

You could make just about any controller work with a Gamecube/pluggable into a Wii Remote as a CC. A common mod even allows for SF arcade sticks. Pad hacking is cheap, handheld modding is not. Simple, right?

That's my understanding of it. It's the same engine for gameplay, same balance and different stages. That's what they're going for or at the very least it's what I read when they announced it.

I meant to say computer, not TV. My bad there. I was also thinking of the Capture Board, which I remembered seeing a cable for which is what prompted me to post hastily. But even on a regular laptop the screen should be big enough for streaming. But still I posted hastily there and didn't give myself enough time to think about what I said about the cable thing.

More controller options are moot when the only available controllers to use are wireless. And a competitive game that has wireless controllers only will have even bigger problems then e regular tourney with just a couple of wireless controllers here or there. None of those solve that problem. The 3DS has the Wii-U beat there currently as connecting to other 3DSs with a lot of people attempting to do it is not as big of a problem as lots of people try to sync up to consoles simultaneous. Sure the Wii-U has more variety of controllers available, but it still becomes moot when it is limited to wireless only.

Both games are being worked on hard, they aren't just porting one to the other. Calling one a port or watered down version of the other is a gross misaccusation since both have different teams, with Sakurai as the head for both, and are both having a lot of work put into them.

 

[smashbro29]

I meant to say computer, not TV. My bad there. I was also thinking of the Capture Board, which I remembered seeing a cable for which is what prompted me to post hastily. But even on a regular laptop the screen should be big enough for streaming. But still I posted hastily there and didn't give myself enough time to think about what I said about the cable thing.

More controller options are moot when the only available controllers to use are wireless. And a competitive game that has wireless controllers only will have even bigger problems then e regular tourney with just a couple of wireless controllers here or there. None of those solve that problem. The 3DS has the Wii-U beat there currently as connecting to other 3DSs with a lot of people attempting to do it is not as big of a problem as lots of people try to sync up to consoles simultaneous. Sure the Wii-U has more variety of controllers available, but it still becomes moot when it is limited to wireless only.

Both games are being worked on hard, they aren't just porting one to the other. Calling one a port or watered down version of the other is a gross misaccusation since both have different teams, with Sakurai as the head for both, and are both having a lot of work put into them.

I said the same game in a smaller resolution. Denying that is like saying the 3DS outputs the same amount of polygons at 1080p. Granted the controller thing is an issue, there are some imperfect solutions like having pre synced wii motes you plug CC/GC(via converter) into but you're right, it'll be a challenge.

 

[WindMajor]

The way I see it, the possibility of balanced item play exists and because of that it would be wise to explore them rather than immediately reject them. This will ensure that no problems ever arise in the future.

 

[smashbro29]

The way I see it, the possibility of balanced item play exists and because of that it would be wise to explore them rather than immediately reject them. This will ensure that no problems ever arise in the future.

Can you elaborate on that more?

 

[nessokman]

HOW DARE YOU STAND WHERE HE STOOD!

 

[LiteralGrill]

M2K played at one event. Yay... a player who only plays Brawl for the money tried the rules once.

It wasn't JUST him, I just didn't want to list a whole bunch of names, I can if you want. It was said back in the beginnings of ISP that "a lot of top smashers secretly like ISP". The funny thing was people were too afraid to support it or even enjoy it because of possible ridicule, which is sad honestly that we can't let people even enjoy a different format for fun without questioning their level of play.

I enjoy items, I love that crazy **** but you're delusional if you think items the way they work can really work for competition. They drop at random locations at random times in random quantities. Doesn't matter if it's a fan a bat or a piece of food it's luck not skill.

I don't understand the logic behind setting some items on because the kind of person with the attitude that items should be allowed aren't going to like the "only some items allowed" ruleset much more. Why coddle them? I'm calling it from right now, serious competitors aren't gonna wanna use a handheld with limited control options, you guys act as if the 3DS port isn't just the WiiU game squashed down in resolution with some different stages. You can try it just seems like a waste considering that the WiiU is a thing.

Did I do the scrabble quote in this thread already? I did... Ah well, I post it again, spoiled again to save others some time:

Spoiler

There are many games that have high-stakes with huge cash prizes that rely heavily on luck, the prime example being Poker, but the one I want to mention is Scrabble. Yes you read right, Scrabble.

In Scrabble, the Z is actually rather broken as it has many uses but is still worth 10 points. The largest complaint for items in smash is that no player with money on he line is going to risk losing a match to an item spawn. My question is, does a pro Scrabble player complain when in the finals his opponent gets a Z at just the right time even though he has lost out on a LOT more money than the Smash player has? No.

There is more to Scrabble then just coming up with words and finding a spot for them on the board. Those two skills are very important obviously, no player will become a successful pro without being able to deal with the over-arching element to the game: minimizing the effects of bad luck, and maximizing the effects of your good luck.

When thinking of item play, it's more important than thinking whether items are unfair or not, it's how interesting the game is made of minimizing the bad luck and maximizing the good luck. Yes, an item could give someone an advantage for no reason, but that doesn't mean they need to be banned. Part of the flow of the game should be how the opponent then survives that luck, keeps fighting, and hopes for the next bit of fortune to be theirs, and to utilize it when this happens.

Tldr; Many other high-stakes games rely on the flow of luck, and there is no reason we can't play for money and have the same features.

Or if you hate Scrabble, try to replace it with Pokemon, there are a lot of similarities.

(P.S. I did copy/paste this from another thread in case you recognize it)

Also, from previous experience, ISP is a GREAT bridge for people who fight for items, and they do not mind some are banned. It's a fair compromise to most people, and they see it as a fair deal.

People that play these games competitively do not keep their hands still, the 3DS will thrash about wildly, so no camcorders are far from an optimal solution. It does have potential it's just the console version has infinitely more potential which negates the 3DS's in terms of events. I cannot stress enough, it's same game scaled down, with some different stages (all of which look to be terrible competitively so far by the way).

It's not negative it's realistic.

The 3DS will have a scene just like every other smash game. The possibility of it making every other smash scene possibly stronger and better because of it? Simply awesome. It's why I want to go for it. All I can say is watch it happen. Whether it goes this route or not, it will have competition.

 

[smashbro29]

It wasn't JUST him, I just didn't want to list a whole bunch of names, I can if you want. It was said back in the beginnings of ISP that "a lot of top smashers secretly like ISP". The funny thing was people were too afraid to support it or even enjoy it because of possible ridicule, which is sad honestly that we can't let people even enjoy a different format for fun without questioning their level of play.

Names, proof I can look at.

Scrabble and Pokemon

You're ignoring the more apt comparison, traditional fighting games. But fine.

Yes, an item could give someone an advantage for no reason.

That's enough for me, I'm not a FD only kinda guy. I like the stages that give a fair warning and then do something that isn't that big of a deal because it's more interesting but a one sided advantage at random? I don't know man.

The 3DS will have a scene just like every other smash game. The possibility of it making every other smash scene possibly stronger and better because of it? Simply awesome. It's why I want to go for it. All I can say is watch it happen. Whether it goes this route or not, it will have competition.

But if it's just the WiiU one but on a handheld (which for the record is a good thing) why the hell does it matter?

 

[mimgrim]

But if it's just the WiiU one but on a handheld (which for the record is a good thing) why the hell does it matter?

The main thing is the different stages. Stages can have a big affect on the meta-game and tier list. So the difference in stages could potentially affect stuff like that.

 

[smashbro29]

The main thing is the different stages. Stages can have a big affect on the meta-game and tier list. So the difference in stages could potentially affect stuff like that.

But most if not all of the stages look ban worthy from screenshots alone.

 

[mimgrim]

But most if not all of the stages look ban worthy from screenshots alone.

Never judge a book by it's cover.

 

[smashbro29]

Never judge a book by it's cover.

Walks off and hazards with no warning. Judged.