Is the Competitive Standpoint of Smash 4 Confusing?

[HeavyLobster]

In Brawl, all you have to do to get juggled to kingdom come and gimped by MK is jump, double jump/glide, air dodge, repeat.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Senario]

Fixed it for you.

It is really bad, but I did laugh. Because it is kinda true. MK was arguably worse than Pikachu 64 in terms of balance compared to the rest of the cast though that is my opinion. Not a big fan of how little metaknight has changed in smash 4.

 

[mimgrim]

The best characters with a few exceptions ARE rush down characters in brawl. MK, Diddy, Marth, Olimar.

Are the characters you listing meant to be examples of the exceptions or examples of the rush downs? I'm thinking you are meaning the latter. In the case of the latter, I have been playing Olimar horribly wrong this whole entire time and need to get a new main. ;-;

 

[<π]

You don't HAVE to play any character any particular way. All of the Oli's I played with went in with grabs and got those early high damage combos and stayed in. You can throw pikimin too and force an approach I suppose. Its a stong projectile, but Oli has the tools to approach as well.

I play a pretty campy Sheik compared to ED!!'s sheik. She still has strong rush down tool though. I just don't use them as often or as well as ED!! does

 

[Shiliski]

Well the problem is that in Smash it is easy to run away on certain stages.

Hyrule Temple, for example. Some characters can make the jump from the bottom to the right edge, and some can't. Easy stalling. Some characters can glide underneath Smashville or Final Destination, for more easy stalling.

Granted, Hyrule Temple is banned along with the whole "gliding under the stage to stall" tactic.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Hold it right there, pal.

Which aerials on which characters specifically are you referring to? I'm sorry but just referring to aerial landing lag as some general inherent beast on the coat tail of the entire roster in Smash 4 just doesn't work anymore with people who know any better. You can't just use it for a free shot like everyone else does.

You talk about the "dreaded" repost topics that all mimic each other, yet you go out of your way to essentially make a thread that falls directly in line with them. This topic is no different. It has no chance of being unique. You are asking the same question just worded in a different way with a slightly different implication.

No. It won't be complicated or confusing. It's simple. It will be competitive. There's no confusion. There's no mix-up. From here I recommend maybe posting your thoughts in one of the already rampant threads in existence instead of making a brand mirror topic just to get the spotlight for a moment on yourself.

Geez zipzo i know your not a mean guy at heart but you come off quite hostile sometimes. this guy ain't quilt or senario (just argumentative people like my self) this man is confused thought im quite sure this thread will degrade into (well it has) will smash 4 be competitive. but at the end of the day we should keep our knifes at home.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It is really bad, but I did laugh. Because it is kinda true. MK was arguably worse than Pikachu 64 in terms of balance compared to the rest of the cast though that is my opinion. Not a big fan of how little metaknight has changed in smash 4.

We don't know much about MK to be honest.

CT Zero said his Fsmash looks like it got nerfed in range from the pictures on his youtube but otherwise no one can really tell what changed other than Fsmash and Tornado nerfs.

 

[Senario]

We don't know much about MK to be honest.

CT Zero said his Fsmash looks like it got nerfed in range from the pictures on his youtube but otherwise no one can really tell what changed other than Fsmash and Tornado nerfs.

I know, I just have a distaste for metaknight possibly due to feeling like I really couldn't do anything vs him in the early days of brawl. Back then I was trying hard to play brawl competitively since I was younger and said "Hey new game I definitely need to play it now!" Wasn't exactly fun and I ended up just not liking the character in general. A little bit of nitpicking.

That said eventually all my friends quit brawl and went back to melee so...there is that.

It is concerning though how little he has changed. Custom movesets will be experimented with and apparently Meta Knight has one where his tornado is a shield breaker....Sounds a little too strong imo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know, I just have a distaste for metaknight possibly due to feeling like I really couldn't do anything vs him in the early days of brawl. Back then I was trying hard to play brawl competitively since I was younger and said "Hey new game I definitely need to play it now!" Wasn't exactly fun and I ended up just not liking the character in general. A little bit of nitpicking.

That said eventually all my friends quit brawl and went back to melee so...there is that.

It is concerning though how little he has changed. Custom movesets will be experimented with and apparently Meta Knight has one where his tornado is a shield breaker....Sounds a little too strong imo.

Yeah, don't worry. I can relate to the MK hate.

Also it's not his tornado, it's his drill rush that can turn into a shield breaker with custom movesets. That's at least what the translated articles said. Jesus, the horror of that was the case though. :x.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I know, I just have a distaste for metaknight possibly due to feeling like I really couldn't do anything vs him in the early days of brawl. Back then I was trying hard to play brawl competitively since I was younger and said "Hey new game I definitely need to play it now!" Wasn't exactly fun and I ended up just not liking the character in general. A little bit of nitpicking.

That said eventually all my friends quit brawl and went back to melee so...there is that.

It is concerning though how little he has changed. Custom movesets will be experimented with and apparently Meta Knight has one where his tornado is a shield breaker....Sounds a little too strong imo.

i personally don't think custom moves will be used since sakurai basically said he was throwing balance to the wind with them.
but overall his nerf could be subtle like more set up frames for smash attacks. or perhaps some actual landing lag lol.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I know, I just have a distaste for metaknight possibly due to feeling like I really couldn't do anything vs him in the early days of brawl. Back then I was trying hard to play brawl competitively since I was younger and said "Hey new game I definitely need to play it now!" Wasn't exactly fun and I ended up just not liking the character in general. A little bit of nitpicking.

That said eventually all my friends quit brawl and went back to melee so...there is that.

It is concerning though how little he has changed. Custom movesets will be experimented with and apparently Meta Knight has one where his tornado is a shield breaker....Sounds a little too strong imo.

Shuttle Loop and F-Smash nerfs are pretty significant. If D-Smash gets nerfed too(and I hope it does) then MK could have some trouble getting kills. I'm sure he'll still be able to gimp people but if Shuttle Loop doesn't have the same stupid knockback it had in Brawl it'll be tougher. He also can't run away and stall people out anymore.

 

[Senario]

i personally don't think custom moves will be used since sakurai basically said he was throwing balance to the wind with them.
but overall his nerf could be subtle like more set up frames for smash attacks. or perhaps some actual landing lag lol.

Well basically regardless of whether they are balanced or not the community will experiment with them. There was an interesting custom attribute I saw called "Stop fast shoes" or something. To me that sounds a lot like something that could be used for great mobility. Maybe you don't do that slide when turning around and instead you just turn. And when you can just turn and act instead of sliding when turning around you have dash dancing essentially.

It is fair to be that they won't be used competitively. I'd put money on that. Doesn't mean you can't test it out. A lot of the smash community's rulesets for competitive play came from testing. Like no Rising pound stalling, or no items, or don't use this this and that stages

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well basically regardless of whether they are balanced or not the community will experiment with them. There was an interesting custom attribute I saw called "Stop fast shoes" or something. To me that sounds a lot like something that could be used for great mobility. Maybe you don't do that slide when turning around and instead you just turn. And when you can just turn and act instead of sliding when turning around you have dash dancing essentially.

It is fair to be that they won't be used competitively. I'd put money on that. Doesn't mean you can't test it out. A lot of the smash community's rulesets for competitive play came from testing. Like no Rising pound stalling, or no items, or don't use this this and that stages

OH i thought you where talking about the alternate specials. lol
i would imagine that it would be more than painful for tournaments to have over 60 wiiu's and have a Chance at winning a sub equipment(if its like KI:U witch it very much seems the case the custome equips will be distributed randomly) on every system.

 

[2ndComing]

I'm gonna leave this thread open for now, because it's to be going in a different in a different direction to the other threads.

From what I can see, it's attempting to predict what the meta will be, rather than just straight out asking the "is it competitively viable" question.

Basically, the only hint I'm getting is that super heavyweights will actually be pretty damn good this time around as opposed to just being fodder.

Thanks for getting mostly what this was about. I am very dreadful at explaining things most of the time

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also to add to that, Shuttle loop and lack of a glide are actually a pretty big deal.

All of the characters in the kirby series have a lot of vertical mobility. But horizontally? Their air speed is actually pretty bad horizontally. Without a glide, Metaknight has to commit to a special move to gain that kind of mobility.

So his options in the air and to recover are actually a lot worse off in smash 4 just off losing in glide since a lot of his safety to recover went away with just that.

 

[Senario]

OH i thought you where talking about the alternate specials. lol
i would imagine that it would be more than painful for tournaments to have over 60 wiiu's and have a Chance at winning a sub equipment(if its like KI:U witch it very much seems the case the custome equips will be distributed randomly) on every system.

Yeah that is the main problem with custom attributes. They seem random and variable so getting enough setups with the right/best data on them is tough. In smash melee you could literally have one memory card and just remove it after you went through the first loading screen (pressing start) if I remember correctly. Then you could remove the memory card and put it into another setup and get the same things unlocked.

Custom moves, we'll have to see how balanced they are. But when people who have more time than me test it I'll gladly look at the results. No loss for me whatever is decided, if it is OP it is a win for me because now we are not using something that breaks the game. If it takes too long to set up no problem, tournament organization is time consuming you can't have people wasting so much time on custom sets. And if it is allowed sure, why not I guess. But I do look forward to more up to date build footage. The leak footage was intriguing. Lucina Fair to uptilt is good, hopefully that wasn't an auto cancel.

 

[Noctes]

The main thing I'm wondering about right now when it comes to competitive Smash 4 is whether or not tournaments will allow the alternate specials or not.

In my opinion I think they should. Yes the early "meta" will be a bit chaotic and unpredictable, but I do not doubt that EVENTUALLY certain alternate specials will be proven to be strictly better/better in more cases than the others, so then the "meta" after that should start to become less random and more predictable.

 

[the8thark]

Is water wet?

Is fire hot?

Is ice cold?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Is ice cold?

is sand sandy? XD
ok, I'm done with this. lol

 

[Senario]

is sand sandy? XD
ok, I'm done with this. lol

No because Sandy can be a name and therefore sand is not necessarily Sandy. "Is sand most commonly Silicon Dioxide" would be right ;p.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

No because Sandy can be a name and therefore sand is not necessarily Sandy. "Is sand most commonly Silicon Dioxide" would be right ;p.

....
I bet you enjoyed that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucina Fair to uptilt is good, hopefully that wasn't an auto cancel.

It was also smash run, I dunno if that also affect the speed of moves as well as run speed.

 

[Backgammon]

If we can stop with the jokes and get back on topic, please.

The rest of the discussion has been really nice, so keep it up.

On another note, I feel there's absolutely no way that MK is as good as he was in the previous game. At all.
There's a whole team balancing in this case, with some very experienced people balancing it.

I don't think there will be a Melee Fox or a Brawl Meta Knight again.

 

[PKBeam]

One little oversight like ICs in Brawl could turn a mid tier into OP.
I'm not going to believe anything about any OP characters until the game is actually released.

 

[<π]

i imagine after 2 games with infinites they are going to do extensive testing at of moves comboing into themselves at the very least.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't think there will be a Melee Fox or a Brawl Meta Knight again.

It's a bit premature to say that. While I do have confidence in Bamco's ability to make and balance a fighting game, I'm still a bit scared that M2K is going to take everyone's money with Sheik the same way he did with MK in Brawl.