Is stage hazards an unskillful way to play?

[Toats]

Im a bit surprised stage hazards are banned (atleast the non-random ones,) In the competitive scene. Of course there is the obvious answers. "Its no longer about the fight and more about dodging the stage," "its unfair and leans toward gimmicks," and "we want a normal battle field without worrying about the stage."

Thats all fine and dandy, but why is it less skillful to use the environment to your advantage? is counter picking a stage to favor your odds not the same as choosing a walk off or stage hazard stage that favors you? Some stages have the EXACT same stage hazard pattern. So there is no random factor to interrupt the fight, and the banning system stops players from abusing certain characters with certain stages. map knowledge and character knowledge should go hand in hand. its your fault if you didn't remember this transformation, its your fault if you get hit by a stage hazard that is predictable to a tee.

Halberd despite how good a competitive stage it is does have some random factors, but it is still controlled via the player, and they should be fully aware of their surroundings. now this may be a bit staggering to the standard competitive player, and may seem a bit off putting. But, please take into consideration other such competitive games with hazards distracting the fight. Most online competitive shooters do indeed rely on map knowledge to succeed with hazards such as water, or mine fields. MOBAS use things like npc enemy knowledge and stealth to use the map to its advantage.

Things like these are not heard of in the fighting game community, but is it wrong? in my opinion no. id like to hear your thoughts on the matter

 

[Marrow]

I find it depends a lot on what exactly the stage hazard is. For example, Halberd's Laser has a huge warning, is generally avoidable, and (most importantly) doesn't distract from the fight. As in, you can live with a small portion of the stage becoming unusable for three seconds. If more hazards were as benign as that, than sure, we'd have a lot more stages to choose from.

But most of them aren't.

The best example I can really think of is the 3DS version's own Reset Bomb Forest stage. The first form is relatively harmless, though it does skyscrape somewhat on the right. As it transforms, the whole stage becomes a walk-off with no platforms for a few seconds. Again, nothing serious, since it doesn't last for a long time. The second form is what killed this stage in terms of legality. Not only is the platform layout janky and cluttered, but most of it's destructible. The final nail in the coffin, however, is the giant snakefish that travels along the bottom of the stage mid-way through this form. It takes a good chunk of the lower blast zone up, which makes kills nearly impossible in this transformation. The combination of the gross platform layout, destructible floors, and the snakefish do not fall under the same categories as Halberd's laser. Sure it has a big buildup, but at the same time, it's not generally avoidable (it's the whole freakin' stage). Most importantly, all of these things completely distract from the fight.

Another good example is Gamer. Randomized platform layouts would be a wonderful touch in my opinion, keeping players on their toes from the very start. However, the peering eyes of doom take away any chance of this stage becoming viable. Taking big damage and knockback for standing in certain spots of the stage? No thanks. I'm sure it would be legal if the light did no damage or knockback, if it were just like Shadow Moses' searchlight. Having to hide in a 2D fighter is a bad choice for tournament play, since it basically requires the fight to stop.

MOBAs, on the other hand, are much more strategic. Minions, NPCs, and enemies can be implemented into a grand scheme. The large maps and multiple players per team also lightens the load. One player fighting a random enemy isn't as big a deal when there's a huge map and four other teammates doing whatever it is they're doing. It doesn't distract from the entire match when it's a part of it.

tl;dr: Yes. They distract too much in 2D fighters but not in MOBAs.

 

[SmashChu]

MOBAs, on the other hand, are much more strategic. Minions, NPCs, and enemies can be implemented into a grand scheme. The large maps and multiple players per team also lightens the load. One player fighting a random enemy isn't as big a deal when there's a huge map and four other teammates doing whatever it is they're doing. It doesn't distract from the entire match when it's a part of it.

Since we're talking MOBAs, lets look at Heroes of the Storm where every map has an objective that, when you complete it, helps you push down the enemy defenses. But now on complains about them except for Dota 2 players

OMG, Cursed Hollow sucks. I have to leave the lane to get a tribute
OMG, Tomb of The Spider Queen is the worst because I have to walk 5 steps to turn in gems
OMG, I have to turn in coins on Blackhearts Bay (BTW, no self respecting man hates Blackhearts Bay)
You may only hear this from someone who doesn't play the game.

With stages, it is not unskillful way to play since you have to be aware of these hazards. People who complain about hazards are the one who get killed by them. "OMG, I got swept away by water in Kalos League. This stage is bad." It would be the same as saying "A giant golem is destroying our base because I didn't get skulls in the mines!!? This is lame. I want to just lane all day." Good players will always adjust themselves to the surroundings.

In defense of the community, there is something about not having to deal with stage hazards and having a straight up fight (which is why they made For Glory). Stage hazards are inherently bad and could only be bad if a character could overly abuse it, which I can't think of one off the top of my head. This is why we have Halberd. There are some things removed in competitive Smash because it didn't work in Melee (items, Sudden Death, walk offs) but hazards are more a preference. All the same, don't see yourself as a scrub because you play on Gamer or Orbital Gate Assault.

 

[Mike_Tha_Hero]

I think you know why.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Losing a stock because of a jet-powered racecar zooming out of freakin' Hammerspace at WTF miles per hour is never fun. There's a reason Halberd is the only legal stage with hazards on it (well, I guess the barrel cannon on Kongo Jungle 64 kind of counts?).

 

[GhostUrsa]

Most tournaments are designed to simulate real life fights like MMA, boxing and such, so stage hazards don't make sense there. Those tournaments are only about player skill against player skill, which is why stages that give options to a player without forcing a distraction are used.

Now there are a rare few tourneys I've seen that take their inspiration from Gladiator style fights, and those usually are less likely to have problems with stage hazards. It's the equivalent of having a lion let loose to spice up the fight, and forces all participates to not only be aware of their opponent but also their surroundings. The benefits of training in such environments (the ability to have a better ability to mentally handle multiple fronts) are nice, but it does have a harder time determining a better player since this 'lion' may focus on a specific player instead of hunting everyone equally.

Personally, I feel that 2 types of tournaments would be good. One for the pure skill, and the other that is more exciting for crowds. The hope would be that after the fun looking one draws people in, it converts some of those viewers into fans that want to know more and then they move over to the pure skill tourneys to watch some of the more intricacies available in the game. It wouldn't be good to have too many 'showmanship' tourneys since it could run the risk of disrupting the serious competitive spirit that is possible in Smash, but showing our fun side will definitely turn some heads.

 

[Thekiller37]

I feel a lot of it ties in with that stage hazards very often directly damage you, and that really hurts the viability of a stage being allowed. Halberd is fine because there's no platform changes, and Delfino plaza is fine because there is no damaging hazards. Have stages that have both of these, and it just gets ridiculous.

 

[Khao]

Smash tournaments are supposed to pit two players against eachother. Not two players against the game.

The more control goes to the players rather than the game, the better.

It's just that. It's not about randomness. It's not about a lack of skill. It's not even about being fair. It's just that they take away from what the tournaments are, a simple match where both players directly compete against the other. When you add external things to that competition, you're just changing the contest.

 

[Fire Fly]

I personally don't mind but can't say the same for everyone.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

(Off-topic)Question:

If that the instance that it's deemed "unfair" in having stage hazard. Then how come Halberd is legal in tourneys?

 

[Deleted member]

Smash is also a fighting game and not a MOBA, they are both balanced around different things. Fighting games are more about nothing else but the fight, there are no points of a map to "farm", and it also isn't being played from a top down view where you can move in all directions and travel. It's a controlled arena with not a arena as big as MOBA's (which if it were, would make the fighting too slow since it's more about direct confrontations). There also different objectives, fighting games are purely about the players whereas MOBA's are about conquering the map.

I also don't think there are hazards in MOBA's that instantly change the entire map on a fly and have you taking damage like Port Town Aero Drive.

MOBA's also do not have physics based combos and etc. They really are different games and shouldn't be compared.

 

[Ze Diglett]

(Off-topic)Question:

If that the instance that it's deemed "unfair" in having stage hazard. Then how come Halberd is legal in tourneys?

The Combo Cannon only shows up in the second form and shoots 2 super slow and telegraphed projectiles before it's gone until the next rotation. It's not like, say, Port Town where the racecars can show up at any time with no warning whatsoever and KO you at 20%, forcing players to camp at the top platforms whenever the map stops moving so their face isn't plastered all over the front of the WTFmobile. There are plenty of other stages like this, too (Gamer, 75m, Flat Zone X, and any boss stage just to name a few.)

 

[kinbobbobkin]

The Combo Cannon only shows up in the second form and shoots 2 super slow and telegraphed projectiles before it's gone until the next rotation. It's not like, say, Port Town where the racecars can show up at any time with no warning whatsoever and KO you at 40%, forcing players to camp at the top platforms whenever the map stops moving so their face isn't plastered all over the front of the WTFmobile. There are plenty of other stages like this, too (Gamer, 75m, Flat Zone X, and any boss stage just to name a few.)

The laser blast can cause an early KO if at a high damage(minimal 80%) and the claw still damages. Point is that both objects are stage hazards which can kill. It may not be as regular as the hazard in Flat Zone X, but they are still distractions and can damage.

 

[Ze Diglett]

The laser blast can cause an early KO if at a high damage(minimal 80%) and the claw still damages. Point is that both objects are stage hazards which can kill. It may not be as regular as the hazard in Flat Zone X, but they are still distractions and can damage.

Sure, but they're super easy to avoid, so the only purpose they serve is to punish campers and keep the match active and mobile. The fighters know when to run away because the cannon starts moving before it attacks, giving the players a few seconds to react. If a small part of the stage isn't usable for >3 seconds, then it most likely isn't going to affect the match too much, unless someone gets hit or thrown into it. It keeps the match interesting, but it still keeps the match about the fighters themselves and not about fighting the stage, which is more than can be said for the other stages I mentioned in my post. (Besides, 80% is pretty darn close to KO% in this game, unless you're fighting Sheik)
TL;DR Halberd's stage hazards are probably the most telegraphed and easily avoided in the game, and they don't even last the entire duration of the stage, which is why it's legal as a counterpick stage.

 

[Frenzy]

Eh, I see why they aren't on in tournaments but when I play with friends, we keep smashes on low, and the loser picks any board, so I often find myself dodging dragons and nosey-moms. I think it requires skill to juggle several things at once (surviving, fighting and obtaining).

But I can see why it isn't used, adds to big of a "random" factor, even if one could train to avoid it or use it to their advantage. I like throwing my friends into the dragon, golem, mom, etc.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

Sure, but they're super easy to avoid, so the only purpose they serve is to punish campers and keep the match active and mobile. The fighters know when to run away because the cannon starts moving before it attacks, giving the players a few seconds to react. If a small part of the stage isn't usable for >3 seconds, then it most likely isn't going to affect the match too much, unless someone gets hit or thrown into it. It keeps the match interesting, but it still keeps the match about the fighters themselves and not about fighting the stage, which is more than can be said for the other stages I mentioned in my post. (Besides, 80% is pretty darn close to KO% in this game, unless you're fighting Sheik)
TL;DR Halberd's stage hazards are probably the most telegraphed and easily avoided in the game, and they don't even last the entire duration of the stage, which is why it's legal as a counterpick stage.

Fair enough. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[xD4nish]

Mostly, I think they take away from the chance that the better player wins

 

[ChikoLad]

They aren't unskillful per se, as one can actively use them to their advantage. However, certain characters benefit more on certain stages. For example, characters like Kirby and Sonic might love the scrolling stages, but Ganondorf and Dedede have a hard time there.

 

[xD4nish]

You have a point there.