Is Sakurai being biased on some franchises?

[Iggy K]

I remember back when we found out the Brawl roster the internet was raging that Sakurai apparently had bias for starFox because it shouldn't have had three characters, then Wolf gets removed and apparently he's biased against StarFox now, poor dude just can't win. The only thing he's done that indicates bias to me is Dark Pit, and even then the character is just a clone who would've required little effort. Anyone who thinks he or the doc or Lucina kept out any other character is just sorely mistaken. Like most things the Smash fanbase complains about the whole Sakurai bias thing is just exaggerated to an absurd degree.

 

[Neanderthal]

I would say he probably has been biased toward his own series and characters since Brawl (Metaknight, Dedede, Dark Pit and Palutena).

But I wouldn't say he has any particular biases AGAINST other series.
Although DK does stand out as being bizarrely under-represented (this coming from someone who's fairly indifferent to K.Rool and Dixie).

 

[TopSecretZone]

If you were gonna go there and make fun of his name, you wouldn't really have to change it from Dark Pit.

 

[TopSecretZone]

If you were gonna go there and make fun of his name, you wouldn't really have to change it from Dark Pit.

 

[The Slayer]

As a huge Zelda fan, I'm honestly fine with how it's being represented. So far, there's five characters, three stages, lots of items, three very popular characters as assists (Ghirahim, Midna, and Skull Kid. Correct me if there's more.) and really, the only other character I can see getting added is Impa, which I do think would be cool.

Tingle is what you're missing. The AT rep for Xenoblade Chronicles that Sakurai mentions about him doing similar charms and dancing like Tingle did in Brawl and stated he'll return as well. But yeah, totally seeing Impa as the next one.

For this thread, depends on how biased you want it to be. It's there, but KI's representation isn't that extreme than what most people are making it out to be. And even Kirby's representation is a little more even with others. If you're talking about clones, let it be known. Simple designs don't take too much time than complex ones.

Probably in a span of month or two, there can probably be at least several clones already workable than one or two (and I highly doubt they pulled two easily) unique characters with a completely new moveset still need testing. The fact they poop out this many in a span of more than two years on two different consoles (same roster yet, but I don't think it was pure cut and paste) is really impressive and should be praised for. However, it's short-sighted to think characters like Doc and Dark Pit are taking spots of someone like Dark Samus, Skull Kid, or whatever popular character people like.

Most of the original new characters took a lot of time and with balance in mind with previous characters, that's a lot of stress and time to work with. So I highly doubt "biased" was the primary factor in this roster choice this time around.

 

[GunGunW]

Yeah, the fact that the Kirby stage is based off a game he made rather than a current Kirby game kind of says something.

 

[LancerStaff]

- Palutena being the only non-Mii character to have original custom moves

That's her gimmick. She'd just be a rebalanced Zelda otherwise. Megaman fights mostly with projectiles, Mac can't fight in the air and gets a OHKO punch, and Rosalina gets Luma. That's the character's signature gimmick, quit making it seem like her's is any more special then anybody else's.

 

[Erimir]

- Palutena being the only non-Mii character to have original custom moves

If you were gonna go there and make fun of his name, you wouldn't really have to change it from Dark Pit.

 

[Cyberfire]

That's her gimmick. She'd just be a rebalanced Zelda otherwise. Megaman fights mostly with projectiles, Mac can't fight in the air and gets a OHKO punch, and Rosalina gets Luma. That's the character's signature gimmick, quit making it seem like her's is any more special then anybody else's.

Then explain to me why Palutena out of all characters gets the honour of such a gimmick?
Why not Mario with his decades worth of powerups? Why not Link with his large arsenal of weapons? Why not a Pokemon with their dozens of TM's and HM's?

View attachment 24420

"Each fighter possesses four special attacks; standard special, side special, up special, and down special. Each of these can be customized, however, so there are three variations for each direction. This means there are two classifications for special attacks: basic and custom.
However, Mii Fighters and Palutena don't (doesn't) have spin-off variations, but rather completely unique types of attacks."

A couple of unique customs for Mega Man and Rosalina doesnt compare to Palutena's twelve.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

I
Most of what you said is just whining and trying to pile on KI hate, and anybody can see that.

No, I'm really not. I'm simply stating the obvious bias this game seems to be showing in regards to Sakurai's babies. I like KI, so you're wrong there. I'm really not sad enough to 'pile on' hate for a game I actually enjoyed just to look down with the cool kids, which is what you're implying.

 

[IceAnt573]

I am appreciating the Fire Emblem defense squad and while I don't like Dark Pit, it's not that big of a issue since I am convinced there is a final 5 in the CSS and those 5 contain a Metroid and DK character.

 

[TopSecretZone]

I think what it all really boils down to is that people aren't so much bashing other series or defending them, just that given the time constraints of the game and what we've seen so far it feels like Sakurai definitely tried to put more of his own stuff in there than spread the wealth evenly amongst the series. Ideally, they'd wait until we had a game that felt much more complete with representation of characters, AT, stages, colors/alts, custom moves etc and I think most people would be willing to wait longer for that, but unfortunately it's a business and they want it out by a certain date. Like I said though, even given the large amount of time they've worked on this, it still feels like certain things keep getting neglected by Sakurai, what those are depend on your viewpoint I suppose.

 

[Shin F.]

Palutena is the only non-Mii character with fully customizable specials while Ganondorf is still a clone, and Kid Icarus has more reps and Smash Run enemies than Donkey Kong and Metroid.

You tell me.

 

[TopSecretZone]

As far as we know. I know it's illogical and delusional but I'm still holding out hope that Dixie and Anthony Higgs got added or something and Sakurai really didn't throw in Dark Pit with at least that.

 

[Skyward]

He is obviously biased as shown by previous posters in this thread which I won't go over again. But what I find odd is that this is sorta the first time Sakurai's bias has really shown. Sure previous games were skewed towards Kirby and against things like Metroid, but I never felt there was an elephant in the room situation and I think he did a good job at controlling himself. But now suddenly we have a massive amount of Kid Icarus Uprising content in the game and we now have an elephant in the room with Dark Pit. Say what you will about other clones, they were at least visually more than a reskin of another character. This combined with the fact other similar characters stay costumes just makes me wonder, why now?

 

[Erimir]

"Each fighter possesses four special attacks; standard special, side special, up special, and down special. Each of these can be customized, however, so there are three variations for each direction. This means there are two classifications for special attacks: basic and custom.
However, Mii Fighters and Palutena don't (doesn't) have spin-off variations, but rather completely unique types of attacks."

A couple of unique customs for Mega Man and Rosalina doesnt compare to Palutena's twelve.

We still don't know a ton of custom moves. Yeah, only Mii Fighters and Palutena get twelve unique moves, but it's still incorrect to say that only they get unique customs. I'm guessing we'll see a few more among the 350+ custom moves in the game.

 

[Johnknight1]

Sakurai has a bias of sucking up to himself, so yes, of course he is.

Why else would there be a Pit clone when Pit was so terrible in Brawl they replaced half his moves=???

Then add that Palutena has 12 entirely different customized special moves, all the Kid Icarus and Kirby items, and Kid Icarus and Kirby likely getting 6 or 7 combined stages across both games while we've only gotten 1 from Donkey Kong and 1 from MOTHER.

Sakurai is so biased towards his things he won't even say the SSE is bad.

 

[Qsmash]

The only thing that KI:U has over other games are the Smash Run enemies, which I wouldn't count because that's a 3DS only mode and we don't know if they will carry over into the Wii U version. The only reason I can think of why there are so many KI:U enemies is because they were easy to port over since they have the same artstyle as Smash 3DS. Not as easy as say, porting over the tiki enemies from DKCR 3D because they would have to make new textures to fit the game.

Final Smash wise, Kirby, Dedede, and Pit got new Final Smashes while Meta Knight did not. Luigi, Lucario, Charizard, also got new final smashes. Kirby's FS isn't from a game that Sakurai worked on.

Palutena being the only character with unique custom moves (because Miis don't count for 'reasons'). She's probably the only character who practically had 12 moves already laid out for her and they wouldn't have to brainstorm and program for months because they have a general idea of what the move is already. Sure, Link could have 12 moves instead, then it would be giving Link special treatment.

Item wise, really what does DK have besides the Hammer that would translate into smash well? The Rocket Barrel was useless garbage. To me, that's like saying why doesn't F-Zero or Fire Emblem have any items.

 

[Shin F.]

Sure, Link could have 12 moves, then it would be giving Link special treatment.

So if giving Link 12 specials would be special treatment, how is it not special treatment that Palutena has 12?

 

[Luigi#1]

The only thing that KI:U has over other games are the Smash Run enemies, which I wouldn't count because that's a 3DS only mode and we don't know if they will carry over into the Wii U version. The only reason I can think of why there are so many KI:U enemies is because they were easy to port over since they have the same artstyle as Smash 3DS. Not as easy as say, porting over the tiki enemies from DKCR 3D because they would have to make new textures to fit the game.

Final Smash wise, Kirby, Dedede, and Pit got new Final Smashes while Meta Knight did not. Luigi, Lucario, Charizard, also got new final smashes. Kirby's FS isn't from a game that Sakurai worked on.

Palutena being the only character with unique custom moves (because Miis don't count for 'reasons'). She's probably the only character who practically had 12 moves already laid out for her and they wouldn't have to brainstorm and program for months because they have a general idea of what the move is already. Sure, Link could have 12 moves, then it would be giving Link special treatment.

Item wise, really what does DK have besides the Hammer that would translate into smash well? The Rocket Barrel was useless garbage. To me, that's like saying why doesn't F-Zero or Fire Emblem have any items.

What's Dedede's new final smash?

I believe Dark Pit is the only bias here. But as soon as he stopped KI:U, he started smash. So if he decided the roster really early on, he was still in mind of KI:U.

Metriod and Donkey Kong are in serious need of reps. Especially the former, which has Samus, and fanservice Samus. Atleast Diddy Kong isn't Donkey Kong.

 

[Qsmash]

So if giving Link 12 specials would be special treatment, how is it not special treatment that Palutena has 12?

I'm saying giving a character 12 specials is special treatment no matter who it is. If it was someone else then some people would complain about that character getting 12 specials.

What's Dedede's new final smash?

not exactly sure

Spoiler

 

[Enigma14]

I'd like to point out that Fire Emblem got 2 reps in Melee despite the fact that it was unknown while Zelda and Mario got more reps (Half the cast are from those 2 games alone). Why? Well known characters.

Sure ICs, G&W were added but who would you add with Nintendo's history in 99? (When Melee was being planned.)

It doesn't seem to matter what the sales numbers are, imo, as there are characters that are a part of Nintendo's history that can contribute to unique play styles (Yes you can counter this post with clones but I counter with time constraints.)

 

[The Slayer]

Why else would there be a Pit clone when Pit was so terrible in Brawl they replaced half his moves=???

Terrible competitively, but just changes altogether due to a newer game he's based upon currently. Also, clones are easier to make, so they're barely take up actual slots and reps unless it's a landslide of them.

Then add that Palutena has 12 entirely different customized special moves, all the Kid Icarus and Kirby items, and Kid Icarus and Kirby likely getting 6 or 7 combined stages across both games while we've only gotten 1 from Donkey Kong and 1 from MOTHER.

Palutena is new (as in playable) to the series and most of them are partially referenced from KI:U power system. Items that 9/10 you won't be using anyways since they'll be off. And most of those stages will be banned if they're crazy enough. Clearly, he's more than likely biased, but this isn't surprising nor is it by just to spite other games representation.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

This topic is about as pointless as asking if Sakurai is human or not.

Wolf might have been planned initially, but he is not a clone. Despite having a few similar moves here and there, he functions and attacks completely differently from Fox/Falco. Almost none of his animations are the same as those two. So him being cut is not an issue of him "being a clone", but for other reasons. Possibly due to him not being a "high priority" character, and not having enough time to flesh out his moveset (which again is almost completely different from Fox/Falco). And based upon what JC has said, Fox/Falco are probably going to get Wolf's moves as customization options. In short, it was probably just easier for them to add Fox/Falco in the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k3XT2mBvxE

Dark Samus could have been a playable character, sure. But she was not planned to be one. Dark Samus being an AT means that she was planned to be an AT from the beginning. At around the time when the roster was complete (~45 characters), and they wanted to add new characters (Lucina/Dr.Mario/Dark Pit), Dark Samus was not an option for them to add as another character in the game. The reason being is because they would have had to scrap all of the work they put into her being an AT just for her to be a character. And I don't know about most people, but I don't like wasting time making something that has already been completed.

Dark Link could have been a clone, and it would have been easier for them to do so in comparison to Dark Samus or Wolf (despite him not being a clone). The animations were done for him, the model was done, and all they would have had to do is add unique properties to his moves to make him a clone from Link. However, Dark Link has his own set of problems. The first of which being that Dark Link could have fallen in the same line as Chrom, in Sakurai's eyes. Where the character doesn't offer enough in regards to "bringing new and interesting things to the table". Secondly, costumes. This is just a personal opinion but...different costumes on Dark Link would just look weird. Not to mention, they would have to be different enough from Link himself to help distinguish between the two characters. Plus unlike Wolf and Dark Samus, you can argue that Dark Link is far less important to his franchise than Wolf and Dark Samus is to their's.

Next, the Kid Icarus Uprising enemies in Smash Run. The thing about these are that...their models were already done on the 3DS, and they could have been easily ported over and touched up on to be added to Smash Bros. A few tweaks here and there, and presto; an abundance of content ripe for the picking. A lot of what Kid Icarus Uprising has just works within a Smash setting. Argue that if you will, though from a developer's point of view, it is an extravaganza of content which is both easily available, and understood. Especially considering the person involved working on Smash Bros, that being Sakurai himself. Granted, they could have done the same thing with games like Donkey Kong Country Returns (3DS), but when it comes to varied and interesting content that could work in a fighting game setting, KI:U was undoubtedly chock-full of it.

Next up is the clones that they added. Dr. Mario, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Alph were all probably planned from the beginning in regards to being alternate costumes. Barring Dark Link and Dark Samus, they are the only alternate costumes revealed thus far that are their own seperate identities (Dr. Mario excluded). All of them had their models, and animations completed. And then probably whenever the originally planned 45 characters were completed, they wanted to add more. They might have not had a lot of time, but had just enough time to make clone characters to add to the roster. And out of all of the choices that they could have picked, these characters would have made the most sense to them. Lucina and Dark Pit are very popular in Japan, and they are both very important characters within their respective games. Dark Pit has a lot of potential to be different from Pit, due to the insane amount of different weapons in that game (108). Lucina, less so. They had far less options to work with in regards to her, so they had to improvise. So, true to Sakurai's words, she was really lucky to be added into the game. I think that her popularity, and the fact that she is a completely separate character from Marth himself, are the two defining reasons why she was changed to be a clone character. Dr.Mario, while not truly being his own identity, was already in a previous Smash game. So he was able to squeeze by, as well. Not to mention, because of changes to Mario's moveset (FLUDD) as well as Mario as a character having a ton of versatility, it was easy for them to validate their reasons for adding Dr. Mario as his own separate character once more.

As for Alph, Alph could have been different from Olimar. But there are probably two huge problems in concerns to Alph. The first of which being the complexity behind the character (Olimar). As being one of the most complex characters in the game, I am sure that they would have run into some huge problems programming the Pikmin in a different manner just to make Alph a clone. The other huge problem is the popularity of the character, in comparison to Olimar. It would have been...really odd to have two reps from Pikmin, to say in the least. Overall, Alph just works as an alternate costume. So there was no real need to add him as his own separate character.


In short, sure, Sakurai was definitely biased. But I doubt it wasn't without reasons behind these said biases. Honestly, I don't really care. We could have had 45 characters as the final roster, instead of 48 (assuming the leak is the final roster). And when push comes to shove, I care about having more content that matters than caring about what said content actually is. Sure, we could have had more characters. Very popular ones, at that. But in the end, this is his game. What he decides to put into the game is his decision. And he has made it very apparent that he is trying to add as much content into the game as possible. And I really respect that. So while I don't have to be completely satisfied with everything in the game, I don't really blame Sakurai for the biases that he has. It is his life, after all. You can care about thousands of people. Millions of people. But you should always care about yourself, first. So if Sakurai added this content for his own satisfaction, then so be it. He has every right to.

I'm still going to enjoy this game regardless, and that is what matters to me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then explain to me why Palutena out of all characters gets the honour of such a gimmick?
Why not Mario with his decades worth of powerups? Why not Link with his large arsenal of weapons? Why not a Pokemon with their dozens of TM's and HM's?



"Each fighter possesses four special attacks; standard special, side special, up special, and down special. Each of these can be customized, however, so there are three variations for each direction. This means there are two classifications for special attacks: basic and custom.
However, Mii Fighters and Palutena don't (doesn't) have spin-off variations, but rather completely unique types of attacks."

A couple of unique customs for Mega Man and Rosalina doesnt compare to Palutena's twelve.

Why didn't Pikachu get a whole team to switch with? #PKMNtrainerbais
Why didn't Ike get a weapon usage mechanic? #Robinbias

Megaman and Rosalina already have gimmicks.

Really, you're just grasping at straws trying to come up with a legitimate complaint. Palutena get a gimmick that somebody else didn't? Boo hoo. I'm sorry, but giving a character a gimmick isn't bias.

No, I'm really not. I'm simply stating the obvious bias this game seems to be showing in regards to Sakurai's babies. I like KI, so you're wrong there. I'm really not sad enough to 'pile on' hate for a game I actually enjoyed just to look down with the cool kids, which is what you're implying.

You're complaining that Sakurai is reusing mechanics he invented. Uh yeah, that's exactly what it looks like.

Sakurai has a bias of sucking up to himself, so yes, of course he is.

Why else would there be a Pit clone when Pit was so terrible in Brawl they replaced half his moves=???

Then add that Palutena has 12 entirely different customized special moves, all the Kid Icarus and Kirby items, and Kid Icarus and Kirby likely getting 6 or 7 combined stages across both games while we've only gotten 1 from Donkey Kong and 1 from MOTHER.

Sakurai is so biased towards his things he won't even say the SSE is bad.

Pit isn't a bad character in Brawl, lol. Take a glance at the tier list.

Is Sakurai baised to Mac because he got a OHKO punch? Lolno. And back when they were the same character, Zelda and Shiek had 50 moves, beating Palutena's 33 by a landslide.

Kirby only got two stages in Brawl and there's only one, unannounced, stage in SSB3D.

General consensus is that SSE is good, like it or not. You can say it's bad all you want, but it won't change the facts.

 

[Johnknight1]

Terrible competitively, but just changes altogether due to a newer game he's based upon currently. Also, clones are easier to make, so they're barely take up actual slots and reps unless it's a landslide of them.

I'd rather see clones of good characters though. Pit in Brawl was terrible. Basically no one played him, and the ones that did generally were hated upon. The only players who were ever banned from tournaments for Brawl here in California that weren't Meta Knight mains (because 60% of people were Meta Knight mains, lol) were Pit mains (de facto or officially banned).

On top of that, I'd like a character to be GREAT for one game before they get a clone.
[collapse="Here's my analysis that I think proves my point"]Examples of when what I suggest is done
-When in 64 became , was incredibly well made in 64. was similarly amazingly well made (I'd say just a few straws short of perfect), and (who essentially was the Star Fox newcomer) in Melee was also similarly amazing.
- was pretty well made in 64. He got a clone in who ended out being pretty good.
- had a good design in 64. He got a clone in who was decent. In Brawl became , and it became better.
- was well made in 64. When he got a clone in in Melee he was amazing.
- came about after and , which were both amazingly designed. Even then he wasn't a clone or semi-clone, lol.
- and were both pretty well designed (although the latter was very underpowered), and they got a not even clone in . In turn, had a pretty great design (although the grab release frame data for him made him a victim of that, which was stupid).

Example of what I suggest isn't done.
- got a clone in 64 in , who was poorly balanced and the weakest character of the cast. simply didn't have ample strengths and a lot of weaknesses. was an HUGE IMPROVEMENT mostly because of wavedashing, as well as because of the arrival of new moves and skills.
- was meh in 64 (overpowered yet fairly good design, but was really when the design became amazing), and sucked... mostly because was made to suck, lol. If they waited a game for this, it might have turned out better. However, Melee's unfunny and just plain bad joke was while Brawl's was random tripping. Guess I'd rather have then.
- was in Melee and came packed with a clone in . was extremely well made with amazing offense and a brand new and unique style. ... was just a weaker, slower Roy with a worse recovery, worse speed of movement, less combos, and less KO ability. Oh, has a wet noodle tipper, too! wasn't any good until he became in Project M, which is a fan mod for those who don't know.[/collapse]
All these examples point to one theory: make a character have a good design in one game, then the next game make a clone.

That's why I'm not okay with . As I previously stated, I felt his design in Brawl was just awful. It was atrocious. His moves were disjointed, his skills were all over the place, and was very, very campy. Then in Smash 4 half his moves are changed. suddenly looks good. Despite that, I'd rather be good one game and THEN get a clone than get a clone now. I don't want history to repeat itself when there has always been the case IMO.[collapse="That is why I wish we'd instead get a semi-clone of the following characters"]- (Daisy)
- (Dixie as a semi-clone=???)
- (Impa=??? Tetra=???)
- (Dark Samus is dead, so nothing is realistically left, unless you wanna reach for like the SA-X, haha!)
- (I wouldn't have the slightest clue who could be her clone)
- (Baby Yoshi=??? Birdo=???)
- A THIRD TIME (Krystal; sorry, but the space animals are sooooooooooooooooooo well designed)
- (A proper Pichu=??? Plusle and Minun as a tag team=???)
- AGAIN (A proper Roy=???)
- (Louie=???)
- (Big Boss, lol=???)[/collapse]

 

[BlastState]

This topic is about as pointless as asking if Sakurai is human or not.

Wolf might have been planned initially, but he is not a clone. Despite having a few similar moves here and there, he functions and attacks completely differently from Fox/Falco. Almost none of his animations are the same as those two. So him being cut is not an issue of him "being a clone", but for other reasons. Possibly due to him not being a "high priority" character, and not having enough time to flesh out his moveset (which again is almost completely different from Fox/Falco). And based upon what JC has said, Fox/Falco are probably going to get Wolf's moves as customization options. In short, it was probably just easier for them to add Fox/Falco in the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k3XT2mBvxE

Dark Samus could have been a playable character, sure. But she was not planned to be one. Dark Samus being an AT means that she was planned to be an AT from the beginning. At around the time when the roster was complete (~45 characters), and they wanted to add new characters (Lucina/Dr.Mario/Dark Pit), Dark Samus was not an option for them to add as another character in the game. The reason being is because they would have had to scrap all of the work they put into her being an AT just for her to be a character. And I don't know about most people, but I don't like wasting time making something that has already been completed.

Dark Link could have been a clone, and it would have been easier for them to do so in comparison to Dark Samus or Wolf (despite him not being a clone). The animations were done for him, the model was done, and all they would have had to do is add unique properties to his moves to make him a clone from Link. However, Dark Link has his own set of problems. The first of which being that Dark Link could have fallen in the same line as Chrom, in Sakurai's eyes. Where the character doesn't offer enough in regards to "bringing new and interesting things to the table". Secondly, costumes. This is just a personal opinion but...different costumes on Dark Link would just look weird. Not to mention, they would have to be different enough from Link himself to help distinguish between the two characters. Plus unlike Wolf and Dark Samus, you can argue that Dark Link is far less important to his franchise than Wolf and Dark Samus is to their's.

Next, the Kid Icarus Uprising enemies in Smash Run. The thing about these are that...their models were already done on the 3DS, and they could have been easily ported over and touched up on to be added to Smash Bros. A few tweaks here and there, and presto; an abundance of content ripe for the picking. A lot of what Kid Icarus Uprising has just works within a Smash setting. Argue that if you will, though from a developer's point of view, it is an extravaganza of content which is both easily available, and understood. Especially considering the person involved working on Smash Bros, that being Sakurai himself. Granted, they could have done the same thing with games like Donkey Kong Country Returns (3DS), but when it comes to varied and interesting content that could work in a fighting game setting, KI:U was undoubtedly chock-full of it.

Next up is the clones that they added. Dr. Mario, Lucina, Dark Pit, and Alph were all probably planned from the beginning in regards to being alternate costumes. Barring Dark Link and Dark Samus, they are the only alternate costumes revealed thus far that are their own seperate identities (Dr. Mario excluded). All of them had their models, and animations completed. And then probably whenever the originally planned 45 characters were completed, they wanted to add more. They might have not had a lot of time, but had just enough time to make clone characters to add to the roster. And out of all of the choices that they could have picked, these characters would have made the most sense to them. Lucina and Dark Pit are very popular in Japan, and they are both very important characters within their respective games. Dark Pit has a lot of potential to be different from Pit, due to the insane amount of different weapons in that game (108). Lucina, less so. They had far less options to work with in regards to her, so they had to improvise. So, true to Sakurai's words, she was really lucky to be added into the game. I think that her popularity, and the fact that she is a completely separate character from Marth himself, are the two defining reasons why she was changed to be a clone character. Dr.Mario, while not truly being his own identity, was already in a previous Smash game. So he was able to squeeze by, as well. Not to mention, because of changes to Mario's moveset (FLUDD) as well as Mario as a character having a ton of versatility, it was easy for them to validate their reasons for adding Dr. Mario as his own separate character once more.

As for Alph, Alph could have been different from Olimar. But there are probably two huge problems in concerns to Alph. The first of which being the complexity behind the character (Olimar). As being one of the most complex characters in the game, I am sure that they would have run into some huge problems programming the Pikmin in a different manner just to make Alph a clone. The other huge problem is the popularity of the character, in comparison to Olimar. It would have been...really odd to have two reps from Pikmin, to say in the least. Overall, Alph just works as an alternate costume. So there was no real need to add him as his own separate character.


In short, sure, Sakurai was definitely biased. But I doubt it wasn't without reasons behind these said biases. Honestly, I don't really care. We could have had 45 characters as the final roster, instead of 48 (assuming the leak is the final roster). And when push comes to shove, I care about having more content that matters than caring about what said content actually is. Sure, we could have had more characters. Very popular ones, at that. But in the end, this is his game. What he decides to put into the game is his decision. And he has made it very apparent that he is trying to add as much content into the game as possible. And I really respect that. So while I don't have to be completely satisfied with everything in the game, I don't really blame Sakurai for the biases that he has. It is his life, after all. You can care about thousands of people. Millions of people. But you should always care about yourself, first. So if Sakurai added this content for his own satisfaction, then so be it. He has every right to.

I'm still going to enjoy this game regardless, and that is what matters to me.

Pretty much my view on this.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd rather see clones of good characters though. Pit in Brawl was terrible. Basically no one played him, and the ones that did generally were hated upon. The only players who were ever banned from tournaments for Brawl here in California that weren't Meta Knight mains (because 60% of people were Meta Knight mains, lol) were Pit mains (de facto or officially banned).

On top of that, I'd like a character to be GREAT for one game before they get a clone.

[collapse="Here's my analysis that I think proves my point"]Examples of when what I suggest is done
-When in 64 became , was incredibly well made in 64. was similarly amazingly well made (I'd say just a few straws short of perfect), and (who essentially was the Star Fox newcomer) in Melee was also similarly amazing.
- was pretty well made in 64. He got a clone in who ended out being pretty good.
- had a good design in 64. He got a clone in who was decent. In Brawl became , and it became better.
- was well made in 64. When he got a clone in in Melee he was amazing.
- came about after and , which were both amazingly designed. Even then he wasn't a clone or semi-clone, lol.
- and were both pretty well designed (although the latter was very underpowered), and they got a not even clone in . In turn, had a pretty great design (although the grab release frame data for him made him a victim of that, which was stupid).

Example of what I suggest isn't done.
- got a clone in 64 in , who was poorly balanced and the weakest character of the cast. simply didn't have ample strengths and a lot of weaknesses. was an HUGE IMPROVEMENT mostly because of wavedashing, as well as because of the arrival of new moves and skills.
- was meh in 64 (overpowered yet fairly good design, but was really when the design became amazing), and sucked... mostly because was made to suck, lol. If they waited a game for this, it might have turned out better. However, Melee's unfunny and just plain bad joke was while Brawl's was random tripping. Guess I'd rather have then.
- was in Melee and came packed with a clone in . was extremely well made with amazing offense and a brand new and unique style. ... was just a weaker, slower Roy with a worse recovery, worse speed of movement, less combos, and less KO ability. Oh, has a wet noodle tipper, too! wasn't any good until he became in Project M, which is a fan mod for those who don't know.[/collapse]
All these examples point to one theory: make a character have a good design in one game, then the next game make a clone.

That's why I'm not okay with . As I previously stated, I felt his design in Brawl was just awful. It was atrocious. His moves were disjointed, his skills were all over the place, and was very, very campy. Then in Smash 4 half his moves are changed. suddenly looks good. Despite that, I'd rather be good one game and THEN get a clone than get a clone now. I don't want history to repeat itself when there has always been the case IMO.[collapse="That is why I wish we'd instead get a semi-clone of the following characters"]- (Daisy)
- (Dixie as a semi-clone=???)
- (Impa=??? Tetra=???)
- (Dark Samus is dead, so nothing is realistically left, unless you wanna reach for like the SA-X, haha!)
- (I wouldn't have the slightest clue who could be her clone)
- (Baby Yoshi=??? Birdo=???)
- A THIRD TIME (Krystal; sorry, but the space animals are sooooooooooooooooooo well designed)
- (A proper Pichu=??? Plusle and Minun as a tag team=???)
- AGAIN (A proper Roy=???)
- (Louie=???)
- (Big Boss, lol=???)[/collapse]

Some tournaments banned Pit? Talk about scrubby. What, was some noob who doesn't understand how to dodge arrows in charge?

 

[bobadz]

What I am saying is that it really didn't make much sense to KEEP the moveset. As many people have pointed out, Ganondorf's moveset could easily be copy-pasted to practically any character, namely the Black Shadow, with a chance to revise Ganon's moves. I suppose that isn't the best case of bias, but it still stands that Ganondorf's been low priority for far too long.

You expect him to recreate a veteran from the ground up? He's not going to do it in one fell swoop. He may do it gradually.

On the bias issue, people would be complaining about bias even if someone else was directing. ItsRainingGravy did a better job explaining it then I ever could.

 

[Johnknight1]

Some tournaments banned Pit? Talk about scrubby. What, was some noob who doesn't understand how to dodge arrows in charge?

I'm sorry, I worded it in a way you couldn't understand. That's my bad.

I didn't mean they banned the character, I meant they banned the players for misconduct.

There was a sizable but still small population of Pit mains that well... had "tournament conduct" issues. This actually made it a terrible condition for Pit players for a while.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sorry, I worded it in a way you couldn't understand. That's my bad.

I didn't mean they banned the character, I meant they banned the players for misconduct.

There was a sizable but still small population of Pit mains that well... had "tournament conduct" issues. This actually made it a terrible condition for Pit players for a while.

What kind of issues?

 

[IceAnt573]

The way I think of this is that if Aonuma was in charge of Smash, there would be a "Zelda bias". If it was Itoi, it would be a "Mother bias". If it was Satoshi Tajiri or Ken Sugimori, there would be even more Pokemon in Smash. However, Sakurai is in charge which means a "Kid Icarus bias" and "Kirby bias".

 

[Johnknight1]

What kind of issues?

General stuff. Being rude to an asinine degree, cursing, shouting, harassment, and whining to the point of hardcore bickering about camping rules being enforced.

I've heard rumors that a Meta Knight/Pit main once was kicked from a tournament for stinking so bad. That needs to be enforced HARDER!!!

It's why I have TWO backup deodorant bars in my truck!!! (and why I shave my pits) Smell neutral/good, not like stanky arm juice!

 

[LancerStaff]

General stuff. Being rude to an asinine degree, cursing, shouting, harassment, and whining to the point of hardcore bickering about camping rules being enforced.

I've heard rumors that a Meta Knight/Pit main once was kicked from a tournament for stinking so bad. That needs to be enforced HARDER!!!

It's why I have TWO backup deodorant bars in my truck!!! (and why I shave my pits) Smell neutral/good, not like stanky arm juice!

I get what you're saying, but I don't really see how this all makes Pit a bad character.

And the camping rule thing... I don't really see how it could be inforced at all. It's like trying to ban Snaking from MKDS, really.

 

[Johnknight1]

I get what you're saying, but I don't really see how this all makes Pit a bad character.

It was mostly me bringing up that fanbase in Brawl had some less than desirable people, moreso than other character fanbases in competitive play.

And the camping rule thing... I don't really see how it could be inforced at all. It's like trying to ban Snaking from MKDS, really.

It was ledge grabbing mostly and planking. Ledge grabbing has a set limit, whereas planking is flat banned. I mean normally it's not enforced, but at some point when you go past the limit it's stupid. Pit players routinely did that, lol.

Pit isn't a bad character in Brawl, lol. Take a glance at the tier list.

I'm not talking about tier list, I'm talking about character design, specifically in regards to skillset, moveset, and playstyle. I thought Pit was terrible in all those departments, and apparently so did the development team, given the fact barely anything of Pit remains from Brawl. Only one of his special moves remains from Brawl, and it was drastically changed. That's never happened to a returning character before.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not talking about tier list, I'm talking about character design, specifically in regards to skillset, moveset, and playstyle. I thought Pit was terrible in all those departments, and apparently so did the development team, given the fact barely anything of Pit remains from Brawl. Only one of his special moves remains from Brawl, and it was drastically changed. That's never happened to a returning character before.

Alot more of the old Pit remains then you think. His arrows and Uspecial were rebalanced because the whole game was rebalanced, while the other two are basically suped-up versions of the old ones to make up for it.

His new arrows are slower, but now they're controlled like PK Thunder and when charged a bit they're as fast as his Brawl arrows. Basically, the opponent still has to approach, but he'll have less arrows to deal with.

Uspecial doesn't have as crazy of range, but it can be used again if hit out of it. It could potentially be used as a way to escape to the other side of the stage if the landing lag isn't too high.

Dspecial works in the same way as the old one did, except you're protected on all sides. Yep, even top and bottom, if the Famitsu article is true. It also takes the wind effect from his old Uspecial and it's much stronger, so it has some utility there.

His Sspecial, which I'd say will be one of his best moves, has crazy versatility. It's a powerful KO move, has super armor, it's an effective recovery move in both that it ledge snaps easily and that Pit jumps up high with a direct hit to the opponent, and it doesn't put Pit into a helpless state. He will end up right next to the lower blastline if he misses the ledge through.

Personally, I see Pit being played much like before, just less extreme.

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

Spaghetti for Smash Bros.

 

[Kidney Thief]

I'll keep it short and to the point.

Dark pit is a touch too much. DK series needs more representation, it will be a travesty if there's only 2 characters from that series. I also think black shadow should just pick up ganon's clone moves so we can finally have a more fitting ganon.

 

[ScubaGoomba]

A few things to consider (and I apologize if they've been brought up):

1) Bias isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sakurai is more familiar with his own characters and may be able to create better fighters, or at least fighters that feel truer to their source, by using his characters.

2) Smash Bros. is certainly a gallery of Nintendo's greatest games, but it's also a huge marketing tool. Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem may not be the most significant games in Nintendo's history, but they represent series that Nintendo is currently invested in. Sakurai certainly has the final say on who gets into the games, but Nintendo probably "suggests" certain franchises to work with. I think Sakurai stated he and his team just assumed Chrom would be the best, new FE character to use but realized Robin could be a better pick. They may have told him to pump up Kid Icarus, focus on promoting the newer Pokémon games, and not to worry about Donkey Kong, Star Fox, Metroid because there are substantial products in the works/Nintendo isn't too concerned with their future sales.

 

[Kidney Thief]

A few things to consider (and I apologize if they've been brought up):

1) Bias isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sakurai is more familiar with his own characters and may be able to create better fighters, or at least fighters that feel truer to their source, by using his characters.

2) Smash Bros. is certainly a gallery of Nintendo's greatest games, but it's also a huge marketing tool. Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem may not be the most significant games in Nintendo's history, but they represent series that Nintendo is currently invested in. Sakurai certainly has the final say on who gets into the games, but Nintendo probably "suggests" certain franchises to work with. I think Sakurai stated he and his team just assumed Chrom would be the best, new FE character to use but realized Robin could be a better pick. They may have told him to pump up Kid Icarus, focus on promoting the newer Pokémon games, and not to worry about Donkey Kong, Star Fox, Metroid because there are substantial products in the works/Nintendo isn't too concerned with their future sales.

I think it's a bad thing because it makes more important characters less represented