Is pit a little better than Ike?

[blue_dragon]

I have not let laid hands on Brawl, so my opinion should not be valued highly.


First, I think "good" and "better" are a little vague.

Some characters a better against a certain characters then others.
(Thats a little muddled, try this: Fox is better against Bowser then Gannon is against Bowser.)

HOW CAN YOU PROVE ONE CHARACTER IS "BETTER" THEN ANOTHER?

Unless matches between two equally skilled contestants are played between Pit and each other character and compared to the results of Ike verses all the characters, nothing can be shown.
Of course, no equally skilled players can be found, as it is impossible to define "equally skilled."

Anecdotal evidence is useless- differing skill levels.

IMO, the only real stuff we have is the tier lists from Melee. The tier lists show which character is it possible to be BEST with. There have been many, many tournaments which should make the data fairly accurate. (I don't want to argue about this, don't bother.)
From what we can see from Melee, fast characters claimed higher places on the tier list.

A more well explained version of what I've was trying to explain.

Yeah though I'm leaving now before the thread is locked.

 

[Fizz-sama]

Don't want to sound like a wannabe-mod, but blue_dragon, please edit your post to add additional comments instead of double posting.

To be on subject though, I believe that the Ike vs. Pit match up is indeed in Pit's favor.

 

[e105beta]

Pit is 100% better than Ike. Safer aerials, better approach, strong defensive game, better recovery, easy edgehogging similar to Jigglypuffs. Has much more options that Ike. Pit is one of the best characters in the game, like I said in other topics Ike will be about where Link/Roy were in the Melee tier list.

No; I don't know; not necessarily; so does Ike; well, duh; Ike's is spike-a-licous.

EDIT: Most of the people on the Ike forums are just fan boys that joined SWF from gfaqs or because Brawl is about to come out. Almost all of these people have no idea what high-level competitive smash is all about.

You sound like a fanboy...

Ike is very slow he has very few approaches and nothing that can save him from being aggressively rushed down. He is very similar to how Bowser is in Melee. Ike is strong...but his killing attacks are all slow and easy to avoid except Bair. Ike is a solid character no doubt, but he is nothing special. He is extremely easy to abuse because his horrible recovery and not being able to do anything when people are pressuring him except his a,a,a combo lol.

-He's not THAT slow. He IS slow, yes, but he's not THAT slow...god...
-Aether is always an option.
-Learn timing, don't just transfer over how you'd play a fast character and port it onto Ike...
-Ike is EVERYTHING special, there has never been a character as strong as Ike, nor with that awesome Aether super-armor.
-Recovery: while not as great as Pit's (obviously) isn't horrible...

Ike vs. Pit looks like Sheik vs Ganon. No contest at all. :\

I can kind of see it, but not really. Ike is a lot different that Ganondorf, and Pit isn't really Sheik.

And there is no way in hell Ike will be low tier. Ike is solid, and very awesome, but can get ***** by Pit.

Key word: can. That CAN be applied to a lot of matches.

Now for some facts:
Ike has a counter for heavy pressure
Ike's d-tilt is a spike for edgegarding along with eruption
Dodging is still in, so spammed projectiles can be avoided

Ike can still do plenty to hold his ground and win a disadvantaged match. Ike may win, Pit may win. It always depends on the players though.

People forget the counter...way too often.

I have played Brawl, Ike was the character I used the most lol...so no I am not flaming I'm stating high-level play opinions. I am also one of the best Texas smashers so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to high-level competition.

Ike does have a counter, his counter is slow and should only be used when you know it will hit. Edge guarding like in Melee is completely gone. You will not be spiking people/fsmashing etc people for edgeguarding. If you want to kill someone off the edge you have to jump out there and aerial him. Otherwise auto sweetspot just messed up your whole plan. In case you haven't realized most completive players don't spam projectiles to add %'s thats just an added bonus. We spam projectiles to make people dodge/roll/waste jumps so we can punish accordingly.

Now for some facts:
Ike has one of the worst recovery's in the game.
He is easily punished and dies extremely easy when off the stage.
Melee edge guarding does not exist.
I never said anything about Ike not being able to win. Pikachu in Melee can Kill Sheik and that match is 100% in Sheiks favor. Any character can win vs any character but that doesn't change the fact some characters are mechanically better then others. Just like Fox/Sheik/Marth/Cf/Peach/Falco > Mario/Luigi/Ganon...etcetc

Like I said before Ike is a solid character but he will be sitting in the mid tier area.



Eruption cannot be used for edge guarding it will not hit no matter what unless the persons upb does not auto sweet spot the ledge, however it can be used to kill people who jump off the edge trying to attack then you can use your heavy armor frames to not take knock back while hitting them. Of course thats with the Ike waiting of the level, he can jump off and Eruption though.

Tell me, oh mister high-level player, how much have you played Ike. I would LUVZ to know. If you give me a "pro-qualifying" number of hours, I will eat my shoe. We must remember that the game HAZ changed since melee.

On facts:
-His recovery is really not that bad, when you need distance, use forward-b. When you need height, use up-b. His recovery isn't amazing, but it isn't horrible.
-I don't really know what to say to this since I actually haven't played brawl directly, but Ike's counter and Aether are options to avoid knock-back punishment, and his counter is NOT that slow...
-Melee edge-guarding does not exist, you are right. Then again this isn't melee...

You don't edge-guard with eruption, you edge guard with down-tilt.

...What kind of "good" player cant l-cancel?...

They don't exist

Lcanceling is not an exploit but nice try.

SHOWS HOW MUCH U KNOW! L-canceling IS an exploit. Basically what happens is that you press the shield button, causing the game to go "OH ****Z! I'm still doing the end move animations, but that stupid player wants to shield. I guess I'll speed up the end animation to pull out the shield."

I'm trying to leave as much bias out of this as I can, but Pit is better than Ike. He has range, speed, priority, and a beastly recovery. Ike's recovery is easily edgeguarded, he's slower, and more powerful. I like Ike almost as much as Pit, but Pit is better.

Recovery with forward B, maybe. Recovery with Aether, not likely.

Every character has weaknesses (save Marth), but characters with weaknesses can still be at high-tier levels.

 

[reothepenguin]

and fun too.

 

[iron blade]

I'm trying to leave as much bias out of this as I can, but Pit is better than Ike. He has range, speed, priority, and a beastly recovery. Ike's recovery is easily edgeguarded, he's slower, and more powerful. I like Ike almost as much as Pit, but Pit is better.

 

[Zareidriel]

*commits blasphemy*

Actually, ROB is better than Ike or Pit. So there. XD

 

[e105beta]

I just realized the problem with editing on a fast thread. More post's have been made before you finish editing the post...

*Lol's at long post*

 

[PwnageLlama]

Double Post >.<

 

[PwnageLlama]

I am going to repost. Fine, shoot me.
I don't know whether my post was ignored for being useless, or missed. However, I bring up some points that do have immediate relevance to the current argument!

First, I think "good" and "better" are a little vague.

Some characters a better against a certain characters then others.
(Thats a little muddled, try this: Fox is better against Bowser then Gannon is against Bowser.)

HOW CAN YOU PROVE ONE CHARACTER IS "BETTER" THEN ANOTHER?

Unless matches between two equally skilled contestants are played between Pit and each other character and compared to the results of Ike verses all the characters, nothing can be shown.
Of course, no equally skilled players can be found, as it is impossible to define "equally skilled."

And yes, proof will be needed. Egos are at stake here. No one will back down until this thread is locked, or proof is provided.

Anecdotal evidence is useless- differing skill levels.

IMO, the only real stuff we have is the tier lists from Melee. The tier lists show which character is it possible to be BEST with. There have been many, many tournaments which should make the data fairly accurate. (I don't want to argue about this, don't bother.)
From what we can see from Melee, fast characters claimed higher places on the tier list.

 

[e105beta]

I am going to repost. Fine, shoot me.
I don't know whether my post was ignored for being useless, or missed. However, I bring up some points that do have immediate relevance to the current argument!

First, I think "good" and "better" are a little vague.

Some characters a better against a certain characters then others.
(Thats a little muddled, try this: Fox is better against Bowser then Gannon is against Bowser.)

HOW CAN YOU PROVE ONE CHARACTER IS "BETTER" THEN ANOTHER?

Unless matches between two equally skilled contestants are played between Pit and each other character and compared to the results of Ike verses all the characters, nothing can be shown.
Of course, no equally skilled players can be found, as it is impossible to define "equally skilled."

And yes, proof will be needed. Egos are at stake here. No one will back down until this thread is locked, or proof is provided.

Anecdotal evidence is useless- differing skill levels.

IMO, the only real stuff we have is the tier lists from Melee. The tier lists show which character is it possible to be BEST with. There have been many, many tournaments which should make the data fairly accurate. (I don't want to argue about this, don't bother.)
From what we can see from Melee, fast characters claimed higher places on the tier list.

This isn't melee...THIS...IS...BRAWLTAAAAA!~

 

[PwnageLlama]

This isn't melee...THIS...IS...BRAWLTAAAAA!~

*carnage ensues*

I couldn't tell if this was partially or completely a joke; it is a valid point.

My point was:
Tier lists showed which characters had the ability to be better then others. There have been MANY MANY tournaments, so they are a fairly good representation of the characters with the techniques we have today.

UNTIL MANY BRAWL TOURNAMENTS ARE PLAYED, THIS IS THE ONLY EVIDENCE WE HAVE!

LOOKING AT THE TIER LISTS WE HAVE, AS A WHOLE, FAST CHARACTERS CLAIMED HIGHER PLACES.

I haven't played brawl, so things could be quite different...

 

[e105beta]

*carnage ensues*

I couldn't tell if this was partially or completely a joke; it is a valid point.

My point was:
Tier lists showed which characters had the ability to be better then others. There have been MANY MANY tournaments, so they are a fairly good representation of the characters with the techniques we have today.

UNTIL MANY BRAWL TOURNAMENTS ARE PLAYED, THIS IS THE ONLY EVIDENCE WE HAVE!

LOOKING AT THE TIER LISTS WE HAVE, AS A WHOLE, FAST CHARACTERS CLAIMED HIGHER PLACES.

I haven't played brawl, so things could be quite different...

It was a joking way of trying to make a valid point.

You are only partially correct. Until a few tournaments are played, this is the only evidence we have. But tournaments have begun to be played, and the game mechanics and physics of brawl aren't as unfairly favored to fast characters. Things are quite different.

 

[Mr.C]

No; I don't know; not necessarily; so does Ike; well, duh; Ike's is spike-a-licous.
On facts:
-His recovery is really not that bad, when you need distance, use forward-b. When you need height, use up-b. His recovery isn't amazing, but it isn't horrible.
-I don't really know what to say to this since I actually haven't played brawl directly, but Ike's counter and Aether are options to avoid knock-back punishment, and his counter is NOT that slow...
-Melee edge-guarding does not exist, you are right. Then again this isn't melee...

You don't edge-guard with eruption, you edge guard with down-tilt.

Ummm if he is using quick draw for recovery it is VERY easy to just jump in front of him and cause him to suicide. Just like luigi's green missle. If he cannot use Aether which is pretty much only vertical recovery he is as good as dead. If Ike is off the stage and not directly below the edge and his opponent is not busy doing anything hes dead.

Saying someones recovery is BAD has nothing to do with the character in general having an easy/hard time getting back to the stage. Saying someones recovery is bad means they are extremely easy to kill when they are trying to recover.

You can't even edge guard with dtilt... lol.....the only time anything will ever hit someone on the edge while you are on the level is if they are dumb and let there invulnerable frames run out.

SHOWS HOW MUCH U KNOW! L-canceling IS an exploit. Basically what happens is that you press the shield button, causing the game to go "OH ****Z! I'm still doing the end move animations, but that stupid player wants to shield. I guess I'll speed up the end animation to pull out the shield."

LOL you are dumb and this pretty much proves it. If Lcanceling is an exploit why was it explained in the "How to play" section of the game manual? LOL

 

[PwnageLlama]

It was a joking way of trying to make a valid point.

You are only partially correct. Until a few tournaments are played, this is the only evidence we have. But tournaments have begun to be played, and the game mechanics and physics of brawl aren't as unfairly favored to fast characters. Things are quite different.

People are arguing:
IKE HAS NO RECOVERY

Reply:
AETHER CAN DO AWESOME THINGS

Reply:
BUT PIT CAN FLY!

Etc.

All of that stuff is useless!

Just like the "IS IKE HIGH TIER" thread, we do not have enough evidence anywhere! It is impossible to end the argument.

Maybe I was being too quick to draw connections between Brawl and Melee. I still think that things will not change THAT much. Look at the Ike guides! Ikes B-Air is holy because it is FAST! Ok, enough being hypocritical...

 

[e105beta]

Ummm if he is using quick draw for recovery it is VERY easy to just jump in front of him and cause him to suicide. Just like luigi's green missle. If he cannot use Aether which is pretty much only vertical recovery he is as good as dead. If Ike is off the stage and not directly below the edge and his opponent is not busy doing anything hes dead.

Saying someones recovery is BAD has nothing to do with the character in general having an easy/hard time getting back to the stage. Saying someones recovery is bad means they are extremely easy to kill when they are trying to recover.

You can't even edge guard with dtilt... lol.....the only time anything will ever hit someone on the edge while you are on the level is if they are dumb and let there invulnerable frames run out.



LOL you are dumb and this pretty much proves it. If Lcanceling is an exploit why was it explained in the "How to play" section of the game manual? LOL

True, but it is still an option. I never said Ike's strong point is his recovery, just that he has options, and depending on how far you've gotten knocked away (Ike doesn't fly very far) they can work.

Oh, but it does. The ability to REACH the level comes before the ability to get back on.

Yes you can. Anybody trying to get back on the stage from below can be easily foiled by this move. From above, you just up smash or up air.

Page number? I can't find it....................................................................Yeah, it's not there.

 

[Mr.C]

Page number? I can't find it....................................................................Yeah, it's not there.

No idea what page number but I know for a fact it was in both 64 and Melee's official game manual.

 

[blue_dragon]

Don't want to sound like a wannabe-mod, but blue_dragon, please edit your post to add additional comments instead of double posting.

A more well explained version of what I've was trying to explain.

Forgot about multiquote. I don't like posting on my wii. Sorry bout pseudo double-posting.

 

[e105beta]

Alright C, I see where you are coming from, but no.

It is NOT in the melee manual. The only thing it says in the 64 manual is, and I quote: "If thrown by an enemy, press Z as you land to resume your fighting stance."
This is =/= l-canceling. This is a recovery, and it looks completely different.

 

[Zareidriel]

Teching? Or as Sakurai calls it, Ukemi? Haha.

 

[e105beta]

That's what teching is? Wow, I feel stupid. I play in tournaments and have heard the term so many times, but I never actually knew what teching was.

 

[Zareidriel]

Haha, try not to feel stupid, but it IS the basic of the basic. Some people confuse it with L-canceling, though, and that's definitely not it. L-canceling is halving the frames of a landing animation after doing an aerial by pressing L.

 

[e105beta]

Yeah, I know what L-Canceling is, I just never knew exactly what teching was.

 

[VersatileBJN]

I don't see how people are gonna attack Ike if he charges up QD while falling below way below the ledge, letting go, and doing Aether, Mr.C

You got aim bro?

 

[e105beta]

I'm about 99% sure than Ike cannot Aether after QD.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Dude are you serious?

 

[e105beta]

Yeah, if he could, Ike would be the greatest character ever to grace the game super smash brothers and this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[Ryan-K]

He goes into freefall after quick draw / forward b.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Well, that's not good. If you do quick Draw and get attacked, you're knocked out of recovey animation and can Aeter, so if you're going to attack him that could work in his favor. Could, or it could KO him haha.

With that said I still think Ike will be a good character.

 

[e105beta]

I don't disagree

 

[KosukeKGA]

Pit may be better because he's faster but it won't matter much since Ike is a good character as well. His disjointed hitboxes and his range he has with Ragnell are what is keeping Ike to be a good character.

Just wait for the metagame to develop in a year or two.