Is Lucina really that bad?

[MankeyShank]

From the looks of it, people really don't seem to care much for her. Why? The fact that her sword lacks a specific sweet-spot means she can rack up damage and KO much more reliably than Marth, not to mention she's just as fast as him. Some say she's a "practice character" for inexperienced Marth players, or an "easy-mode" Marth, which I can see why; but I'd rather be able to deal a guaranteed amount of damage without having to worry about my position and succumb to a sour spot.

While she's not my main (that honor goes to ZSS and Mewtwo), she is a character that I really enjoy playing as from time to time and has quite a bit of potential. She certainly doesn't have high-tier potential, more like an upper mid-tier, but I think she's a little superior to Marth and doesn't get enough attention.

 

[dangeraaron10]

I think it really depends from person to person. Avid Marth players will tell you that you can't replace Marth because they mastered the 'tipper' and Lucina is an inferior clone. True, you can get more damage out of Marth with his tipper, but some people prefer Lucina so they don't have to worry about positioning and can use their brain power doing other things, meaning Lucina players can try things Marth players wouldn't consider when they're too worried about landing the tipper as much as possible. Roy, on the other hand, does most of his damage at the base of his sword so Roy players have to make sure they're practically hugging the enemy, making for a very "In your face" playstyle.

Others just hate Lucina for her clone status and will say anything to put her down or her players down.

 

[ShenCS]

The problem is her numbers. You could be better than Zero but still lose because she just doesn't have the frame data. Marth narrows that gap by having way better reward and the ability to improve his numbers at will due to sourspots but they still suck. They can both compete with good play, reads and tactics, but against a player that can match you, it becomes massively one-sided due to the gaping holes her frame data leaves.
That's why she's bad. Which is a shame because she's pretty great with range, damage and knockback (f-smash edge guards forever and always). How much you let it affect you of course, is up to you.

 

[Locuan]

If you are looking for the difference between both characters:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

But some people prefer Lucina so they don't have to worry about positioning and can use their brain power doing other things, meaning Lucina players can try things Marth players wouldn't consider when they're too worried about landing the tipper as much as possible.

I understand what you are saying but this is incorrect. Both characters have pretty much the same data. Their styles of play are the same. Marth's tippers / sourspots allow for players to be able to choose when to use either part of the sword. Sour spots ensure I will be punished less for a missed attack on shield (0.7x hit lag modifier with Marth 1.0x with Lucina). Sour spots also allow Marth to string attacks better in some situations. Tippers on the other hand reward me incredibly well for a good read, getting early kills and the like.

In other words, high level Marth players are never worried about landing tippers as much as possible, they consider the situations when they can use either part of the sword to their advantage. Everything I consider when playing as Lucina, I consider with Marth. On the other hand, Marth allows me to do more than what I can do with Lucina.

To answer the OP's question. This has been asked several times on this sub-forum. In the end, it's because of her frame data. @ S ShenCS covers that in a very brief manner on his post. However, Marth and Lucina now are better with the changes they received in the last patch. Jab 1 changes give her a great tool to create follow ups on opponents, N-air Landing Lag reduced, etc. They still suffer because of their frame data.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Lucina is basically the more balanced version of Marth, since her attacks don't require any sweetspots to be effective. However, because of this, Lucina isn't able to KO things as quickly as with Marth's tipped hits, which can be very inconvenient for certain match-ups.

 

[HanZee]

I main Lucina but I honestly do think Marth is better.
Lucina/Marth's buffs have been helping them improve over time, so I wouldn't say there bad, they just need improvement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Marth is better overall, but with each patch Lucina is getting more to make it clear she is stronger without a tipper.

 

[Rewrite]

There have been so, so, SO many threads dedicated to this topic already. @ Locuan has already stated it in the best and most simple way possible: Marth has more and does everything else better.

The better range on his attacks, the hitlag modifier, and tipper are massive advantages. Optimal play for both characters is exactly the same, and since Marth rewards so much harder for playing that way there is honestly no good reason to play Lucina over Marth in a tournament setting.

There is something else that makes Lucina even more useless though, and that is the inclusion of Roy. I would just like to point out that the sweet spot on Roy's F-smash covers the entirety of Lucina's f-smash. Hell, it's longer than Marth's f-smash. Coupled with better frame data, damage, knockback, and is widely considered better than Marth anyways, Roy gives Lucina even fewer reasons to ever be played competitively.

I honestly don't take the Lucina boards seriously. Every time I start browsing I mostly see threads like "Why is Lucina considered bad?" or "Does Lucina not having a tipper throw you off?" (both of which are very common threads) and there are tons of people who say "No, because then I don't have to worry about my spacing since I get the most out of my sword then." and just miss the 'point' (ha) entirely.

I once saw someone say that landing the tipper is random and that Lucina is better for the more consistent blade.

It's almost like an echo chamber of people trying justify the use of their waifu, and that's seriously what half of it is. In these threads I see most people saying they use her is because they like her as a character, and that's fine. You like a character, so play them. What I take issue with is when misinformation is spread like "You don't need to space with Lucina" or "Her kill options are better because they are more consistent" it makes me sigh really hard. Spacing is never 'optional' on ANY character. Yeah, you don't need to hit with the tip of Lucina's sword to do okay damage, but with Lucina's frame data and hitboxing the tip is still the absolute best place to hit, and since Marth has longer range and rewards har-... well, you know how it goes.

It feels like actual competitive discussion doesn't take place on the Lucina forums. The only time something akin to it takes palce are threads like this, and all that happens is people trying shut down "Lucina is better than Marth" myths. Some people say it makes the Marth players look like elitists, but on a forum dedicated to competitive discussion it helps no one to propagate false facts to justify playing a character.

You play Lucina becuase you like Lucina. That's all the justification you need. Just know that in a tournament you won't go very far.

In other words, high level Marth players are never worried about landing tippers as much as possible, they consider the situations when they can use either part of the sword to their advantage. Everything I consider when playing as Lucina, I consider with Marth. On the other hand, Marth allows me to do more than what I can do with Lucina.

I honestly disagree with most of this statement here. I'm not worried about landing tippers since doing so has become second nature to me. It's almost always better to land with the tipper anyways, especially on shield since the tipper does more shield stun and knockback. You're also at your max range from your opponent so it's harder to punish for that as well. Against most characters Marth has nothing safe on shield so every little extra frame he can scrounge up for himself helps. The only time untippered attacks are really useful is when you're trying to set-up for combos, but since almost all of Marth and Lucina's combos come out of the closest hitbox to their bodies they aren't practical and aren't likely to happen unless your opponent whiffs a laggy move.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I mean this with all due respect and patience, but posts like the above just come off to me as presuming everyone thinks the exact same and plays the exact same, and strives for the exact same goals. Sure, I can come to agree that Lucina is not a rush down character and relies more on quick reaction and correct reads, but who ever said she's useless just because you come inside the so-called tip range? People seem to forget she has a counter, and all it takes is one good read at KO percentages to take that so-called great tip damage and throw it back in your face. It reminds me of a team battle I was having one time. I intentionally recovered poorly so that I would be read and "punished," and the opponent Marth took the bait. I just casually countered him like it was nothing, and gave my team the point we needed to win.

This situation with Lucina is nothing new to me. Life is always throwing excuses at me trying to tell me I'm the "weakest link," and I constantly throw back reasons why it should be quiet and let me be. I'll laugh if a day comes some person wins any kind of tournament with Lucina. People don't do it cause there's money on the line, and hey, almost everyone worships money, so "Lucina can't be good cause she just doesn't have what it takes to make me rich," huh?

I'm going to stop here before I go on a rant that has nothing to do with Lucina. lol

 

[Rewrite]

My posts aren't meant to be disrespectful. I just try to make them blunt and clear, as I will be now.

I mean this with all due respect and patience, but posts like the above just come off to me as presuming everyone thinks the exact same and plays the exact same, and strives for the exact same goals. Sure, I can come to agree that Lucina is not a rush down character and relies more on quick reaction and correct reads, but who ever said she's useless just because you come inside the so-called tip range?

Everyone does have the same goal though: To K.O. your opponent my sending them off stage into the blast zone or far-enough out so that they can recover. Characters have specific ways that they do this. Marth and Lucina rely on their range and hit-boxing to space out opponents and chip away at their defenses over time. Yes, people play differently, but the optimal playstyle as Marth/Lucina is to keep your opponent at your max range while you rack up up damage. It is VERY important that you keep your opponent at max range because they have poor frame-data and up close they have very few options with their fastest being grab and jab which is easily beaten out at close range. The best Marth/Lucina's all have this incorporated into the way they play. As already stated in previous posts numerous times, Marth does that job better. Of course people have different playstyles, but why wouldn't you play a character that was specifically designed to space people out that way? It's really the only way these two can win at a competitive level.

People seem to forget she has a counter, and all it takes is one good read at KO percentages to take that so-called great tip damage and throw it back in your face. It reminds me of a team battle I was having one time. I intentionally recovered poorly so that I would be read and "punished," and the opponent Marth took the bait. I just casually countered him like it was nothing, and gave my team the point we needed to win.

Marth has a counter. He can do the exact same thing you've said here. Ike also has a counter. Roy, Palutena, Greninja, Mii Swordfighter, Peach, Little Mac, and Shulk all have counters. Everything in this example is applicable to all of these characters. If making reads with counter was all it took to be a good character, then all of the ones I've listed would be top tier.

I'll laugh if a day comes some person wins any kind of tournament with Lucina. People don't do it cause there's money on the line, and hey, almost everyone worships money, so "Lucina can't be good cause she just doesn't have what it takes to make me rich," huh?

Actually, yes. Lucina isn't good because she can't stand up to most other characters at tournament level play. She already suffers from all the same problems as Marth, except she does most everything he does worse for reasons explained previously. She's at the bottom of most tier lists for a reason.

This is what I was talking about in my last post when I said I don't take the Lucina boards seriously. I honestly mean no disrespect, but I've had this discussionso many times that I felt it just needed to be said.

What needs to be understood is this site is dedicated to competitive play and discussion. When someone asks why a character they like is considered bad or inferior to another character, people are going to tell you why. I don't have a problem with Lucina. I don't have a problem with people who main Lucina. You can main Lucina and have fun. I'm not trying to take that away from anyone. I DO have a problem with falsehoods being spread in said environment that's meant to further develop our understanding and knowledge of the game.

 

[MankeyShank]

My posts aren't meant to be disrespectful. I just try to make them blunt and clear, as I will be now.



Everyone does have the same goal though: To K.O. your opponent my sending them off stage into the blast zone or far-enough out so that they can recover. Characters have specific ways that they do this. Marth and Lucina rely on their range and hit-boxing to space out opponents and chip away at their defenses over time. Yes, people play differently, but the optimal playstyle as Marth/Lucina is to keep your opponent at your max range while you rack up up damage. It is VERY important that you keep your opponent at max range because they have poor frame-data and up close they have very few options with their fastest being grab and jab which is easily beaten out at close range. The best Marth/Lucina's all have this incorporated into the way they play. As already stated in previous posts numerous times, Marth does that job better. Of course people have different playstyles, but why wouldn't you play a character that was specifically designed to space people out that way? It's really the only way these two can win at a competitive level.



Marth has a counter. He can do the exact same thing you've said here. Ike also has a counter. Roy, Palutena, Greninja, Mii Swordfighter, Peach, Little Mac, and Shulk all have counters. Everything in this example is applicable to all of these characters. If making reads with counter was all it took to be a good character, then all of the ones I've listed would be top tier.



Actually, yes. Lucina isn't good because she can't stand up to most other characters at tournament level play. She already suffers from all the same problems as Marth, except she does most everything he does worse for reasons explained previously. She's at the bottom of most tier lists for a reason.

This is what I was talking about in my last post when I said I don't take the Lucina boards seriously. I honestly mean no disrespect, but I've had this discussionso many times that I felt it just needed to be said.

What needs to be understood is this site is dedicated to competitive play and discussion. When someone asks why a character they like is considered bad or inferior to another character, people are going to tell you why. I don't have a problem with Lucina. I don't have a problem with people who main Lucina. You can main Lucina and have fun. I'm not trying to take that away from anyone. I DO have a problem with falsehoods being spread in said environment that's meant to further develop our understanding and knowledge of the game.

Thank you. I was just curious, that's all. I just think Lucina isn't too shabby of a character and I really enjoy playing as her a lot (though that doesn't justify her usefulness in any sense). Though if I were to enter a tournament, I'd stick with my ZSS and Mewtwo.

 

[Zeekfox]

I prefer Lucina to Marth because I'm not as good. While I get that the point is to keep opponents at tipper length where you can hit them but they can't hit you (unless they're a fellow swordsman or something), my execution leaves much to be desired. To me, just landing a good smash on a damaged opponent is difficult enough, but also making it a tipper? I can do it sometimes, but not enough to be a consistent Marth.

The general idea is that the better the player, the more likely they'll have better success with Marth. Though what about the skill of opponents and different matchups? A good player with a fast character can be very difficult to hit a tipper on, and if it happens enough, Lucina might actually be better? Though I don't know enough of the hard data to calculate how many mid-sword vs tipper hits you'd need before Lucina has an advantage.

 

[LucinaNab1]

^That's my logic. If all Marth hits are sourspots, is he still better than Lucina? Sure, "pros" can smack down on a lesser player who doesn't have the experience, but what about two pros? What happens once Marth's tippers are shut down completely? The natural logic (which is a word I hate using cause I'm always trying to see things deeper than numbers and data) is to get inside Marth's tipper range, or stay outside of it and make him whiff. I'm not knocking stats or hard data, but I can't help but notice how playing three very similar attack styles (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) yields three different kinds of results for me.

Like I was saying before, any Marth pro can easily land tippers on the little guy, but what about two pros? They both know the same things, will they still both always land tippers on each other? Probably not. It's not too hard to sidestep, or roll effectively, or approach quickly with several options. All the good fighters I've watched in online matches don't really play defensively. They're both at each other, swinging.

It's been said this board caters to the "competitive" and "professional" community, but honestly, how much % of the total fanbase is that? All I really want is a place to relax and maturely discuss one of my favorite games, not have to sit and stand the constant "this character sucks!" or "you suck if you use this character!" nonsense that boards such as GameFAQs seem to offer. If I wanted to make a profession out of this game, train hard and go to tournaments and win, then I'd be right there with the hardcore discussions.

I just want to talk to mature, cool Smash players who don't act like kids. Certainly, if I want to take it to professional level, I'd join the Skype group, look for people to train me, and all that. But for now I just want to kick back, enjoy my "Smash waifu" and be cool. No hard feelings. Let's all be cool and not make a spectacle of anyone's opinions no matter how much anyone disagrees. I mean, let's all be honest with each other, what % of all the active users on this board are actually at the level where they go to tournaments and win thousands of dollars of prize money? I'll accept the "elitist" kind of talk when I'm speaking with someone who makes bank off of this game. Until then, let's just all speak about each level of play we're currently at.

 

[Rewrite]

I prefer Lucina to Marth because I'm not as good. While I get that the point is to keep opponents at tipper length where you can hit them but they can't hit you (unless they're a fellow swordsman or something), my execution leaves much to be desired. To me, just landing a good smash on a damaged opponent is difficult enough, but also making it a tipper? I can do it sometimes, but not enough to be a consistent Marth.

The general idea is that the better the player, the more likely they'll have better success with Marth. Though what about the skill of opponents and different matchups? A good player with a fast character can be very difficult to hit a tipper on, and if it happens enough, Lucina might actually be better? Though I don't know enough of the hard data to calculate how many mid-sword vs tipper hits you'd need before Lucina has an advantage.

Then that has to do with your skill as a player. If you're spacing isn't as good then you will find Lucina the more rewarding character, however that doesn't make her a better character since a skilled player will earn the higher reward on Marth. It's like saying pre-patch Diddy Kong is a bad character because you couldn't personally perform the hoo-hah.

In terms of two pro players it's all about understanding the match-up. Marth/Lucina play as walling characters and their goal is to set up a zone that the opponent isn't allowed to get into. To do this effectively you'll need to know your opponents approaching options and condition them so that they approach you in certain ways. After that it comes down to your skill as a player. Captain Falcon is a really fast character, but I can land tippers on him easy because I know the match-up and his methods for approach.

^That's my logic. If all Marth hits are sourspots, is he still better than Lucina? Sure, "pros" can smack down on a lesser player who doesn't have the experience, but what about two pros? What happens once Marth's tippers are shut down completely? The natural logic (which is a word I hate using cause I'm always trying to see things deeper than numbers and data) is to get inside Marth's tipper range, or stay outside of it and make him whiff.

Again, it's about understanding the match-up. Tippers aren't some magical thing that you get blessed with every once in a while by Lord Sakurai. A good player who knows the game can and will get them. They'll be able to keep their opponent out and stack up damage, waiting for a read to finish the stock. See my paragraph above.

I'm not knocking stats or hard data, but I can't help but notice how playing three very similar attack styles (Marth, Lucina, and Roy) yields three different kinds of results for me.

This has to do with your skill as a player. If you aren't good at spacing then of course you will find more success with Lucina, but players who are good at spacing will find far more success with Marth than they ever would with Lucina. And then there's our boy, Roy, whom just blows them both out of the water. :3

Like I was saying before, any Marth pro can easily land tippers on the little guy, but what about two pros? They both know the same things, will they still both always land tippers on each other? Probably not. It's not too hard to sidestep, or roll effectively, or approach quickly with several options. All the good fighters I've watched in online matches don't really play defensively. They're both at each other, swinging.

If you are referring to a Marth mirror match then it's still all match-up knowledge. They aren't just swinging at each other. They're setting up zones of pressure to keep each other out while trying to condition each other. The Marth who lands more tippers and is better at spacing is the one that will come out on top.

You used an example earlier where you made a read with counter, so why can't a Marth just read roll or sidestep? It goes both ways, guy.

It's been said this board caters to the "competitive" and "professional" community, but honestly, how much % of the total fanbase is that? All I really want is a place to relax and maturely discuss one of my favorite games, not have to sit and stand the constant "this character sucks!" or "you suck if you use this character!" nonsense that boards such as GameFAQs seem to offer. If I wanted to make a profession out of this game, train hard and go to tournaments and win, then I'd be right there with the hardcore discussions. I just want to talk to mature, cool Smash players who don't act like kids.

This thread is titled "Is Lucina really that bad?" in which the OP compares Lucina to Marth and asks questions about them. I would expect the main responses in this thread to be of a competitive nature answering those questions and addressing the differences between Marth and Lucina.

Smashboards is mostly geared towards the competitive and tournament scene in nature. if you're looking for places to chill there are forums like the social threads that are more geared towards casual conversations. You call us "kids" when all we're doing is providing facts about why something is the way it is. We aren't being disrespectful. This is just the way the balance in Smash 4 is for Marth and Lucina.

Certainly, if I want to take it to professional level, I'd join the Skype group, look for people to train me, and all that. But for now I just want to kick back, enjoy my "Smash waifu" and be cool. No hard feelings. Let's all be cool and not make a spectacle of anyone's opinions no matter how much anyone disagrees. I mean, let's all be honest with each other, what % of all the active users on this board are actually at the level where they go to tournaments and win thousands of dollars of prize money?

I'm not making a spectacle of your opinion and I have no hard feelings. The information that you have posted is simply incorrect and is detrimental to newcomers whom are actually curious about the differences between Marth and Lucina.

You play this game casually. That's fine and all the power to you, but again, Smashboards is a site geared towards the competitive audience. A large portion of the Smashboards userbase are people whom have taken an interest in competitive Smash and as such the forums on this site are mostly here for tournament level discussion. At said level Marth is proven to be an superior character to Lucina.

I love Marth as a character. I've mained him across all the Smash games he's been in since Melee. I love playing him in Smash 4, but he isn't exactly what one would refer to as a good character. He has flaws, some horribly detrimental and make some match-ups like Sheik painful, but I'm not going to lie and delude myself and say things that simply aren't true to try and justify my choice of Marth. I like Marth, therefore I will play him.

Quoting myself from earlier:

"You play Lucina because you like Lucina. That's all the justification you need. Just know that in a tournament you won't go very far."

"I don't have a problem with Lucina. I don't have a problem with people who main Lucina. You can main Lucina and have fun. I'm not trying to take that away from anyone. I DO have a problem with falsehoods being spread in said environment that's meant to further develop our understanding and knowledge of the game."

You, sir, are propagating falsehoods to try and justify your choice of character. You're playing as her because you like her. She's your profile picture and username for god's sake. That's all the justification you need.

I'm not hating on Lucina or those whom main her. I just can't stand the falsehoods that get propagated on the Lucina boards. If you need to make up stuff about your character being good to be able to play her, I question your loyalty to your waifu. :^)

I'll accept the "elitist" kind of talk when I'm speaking with someone who makes bank off of this game. Until then, let's just all speak about each level of play we're currently at.

By this logic, your argument doesn't hold any validity either. You have admitted to being a casual player in the way you've worded it, so why do your points, which you have no evidence for and I've rebutted, mean anything more than mine, which i have provided evidence and reason for?

Since you're playing at a casual level anyways the tiers don't matter to you as much so why should you care what the tournament level players think then?

These aren't some off the wall, crazy opinion. These are the objective facts abut the balance of Marth and Lucina. @ Locuan said it here as well and it's been said across every forum post addressing the topic of Marth vs Lucina.

Why can't the Lucina boards be like the Zelda boards? They know their character isn't good, but they still play her anyways because she's Zelda and those people like Zelda, so they will play as Zelda whether she's good or not. They don't falsify truths or feel the need to justify themselves because she is Zelda, and that's all the justification they need.

 

[LucinaNab1]

Actually I wasn't thinking of anyone here when I mentioned the kids comment, I was thinking of complete different places, some that I outright mentioned. That wasn't meant as a personal attack on anyone here.

And how am I stating falsehoods? I simply am saying that at my current level of play, I don't worry about the "professional" things so much. I'm not knocking on anyone or anything. Instead of replying to any one part of your post in particular, I'll just say this. At the end of the day, this is only a game. A game. Even if someone is making money off of it, well great for them, but it's really not that big a deal.

So yeah, remove from yourself any implication of being insulted, cause I didn't mean any such thing. I'm kinda bad with my words and things come out weird sometimes.

"Since you're playing at a casual level anyways the tiers don't matter to you as much so why should you care what the tournament level players think then?"

That pretty much covers what I was trying to answer in my other huge post. I actually do have some mild interest in competitive play, which is why I come here.

 

[The Puffer]

I'm just gonna get into this and say that she is just under rated. Sure, she might have less kill potential than marth, but I think that makes her aerial game a little bit more effective. I can't say much tho, since I've just recently started playing as her, however, I've find many good Lucinas online.


She still need buffs tho.

 

[Zeekfox]

Then that has to do with your skill as a player. If you're spacing isn't as good then you will find Lucina the more rewarding character, however that doesn't make her a better character since a skilled player will earn the higher reward on Marth. It's like saying pre-patch Diddy Kong is a bad character because you couldn't personally perform the hoo-hah.

Not quite the same, really. Diddy's down throw puts the opponent in a specific position that leaves the opponent vulnerable to a followup. Marth/Lucina doesn't really have combos off throws, which means you're mostly landing hits in neutral.

Haha, I know I'm personally bad. I still attempt spacing, but eh, accuracy. But realistically, there's always gonna be players capable of giving a swordsman some spacing issues. Maybe it's not enough to make Lucina actually better, but oh well.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I have no trouble admitting Lucina is "inferior" to Marth, but it all depends what buffs she ends up getting. Even with the ones she has now, things are quite interesting. I really like her back airs and her down smash makes a good roll punish at high percents. Even without punishing, sometimes I use down smash if I read an opponent's move and want to knock them airborne for some juggling.

One of the biggest reasons I play Lucina is her having a style I've been familiar with for 14 years, but I have a feeling that even if she had a unique moveset, I'd have still tried to learn and main it. If I ever meet Chrom, I'm going to thank him for having such a wonderful daughter. Hey, at least I can be humorous about it all. That's what games are for, humor and fun.

 

[Nyhte]

Of course the first thing that matters is skill, but some people seem to attribute Lucina as being good because of X, Y and Z when by all means it was simply that they played better than the opponent when it mattered.

Generally you could say she's not specifically 'that bad' but if you're looking at it from a min/maxing standpoint, she sort of is. Especially when you consider alternative options, such as Marth. Why go for something inferior?

Analytically, Lucina needs buffs because she loses more than she gains by sacrificing the tipper mechanic.

Pros;
Better damage when not landing tipper
Slightly less hard to hit due to hurtbox(?)

Cons;
Less damage when not landing tipper
No sour spot, noticeably less safe when hitting shield
Slightly less range on some moves due to height

Tradeoff; Some moves generally will kill sooner due to how they function in Lucina's favor, but she's trading a lot of kill power due to having no tipper and she can get punished far worse than Marth when landing attacks on shield

Conclusion > Why go Lucina? How is she 'good'?

She's really only good if you can't space or you're getting destroyed which is the opposite of what good players are/want. In the event of that, such a situation doesn't make Lucina good, it just makes her 'good' or work for the person in question.

If you're getting destroyed and thrown around a lot, I'd still say that Marth offers more successful underdog potential due to having the tipper alone

It seems as though a lot of people that defend Lucina saying she isn't 'bad' try to reason what sounds logical but isn't actually true- "lucina is a better rush down character", "lucina doesn't need to sweet spot so she can focus on just hitting", "she can kill more reliably"

Lucina and Marth play the same way- do enough damage to the opponent, when situation occurs, punish or make a read for the kill. The problem is that Lucina really doesn't support an offensive rush down style anymore than Marth when you look at tradeoffs and move set. Naturally you want to hit people without getting hit and a lot of how Marth and Lucina do that is range, if you're trying to approach people by being point blank, you're risking getting get hit first when you don't have to, and the move set with lag time, (frame data) really doesn't help Lucina or Marth much. Their point blank options aren't that great, especially in comparison to what they can do at their tips. I'm only a half decent player, but I play a lot of Marth and Lucina, very rarely does it feel like I get a kill on Lucina that wouldn't have happened with Marth, similarly, more often than that, I feel like I would have gotten a kill with Marth while I didn't with Lucina.

You gain some kill power in up smash, (when it doesn't tipper) and shield breaker (when it doesn't tipper) with forward smash, (when it doesn't tipper) except it feels as though that trade isn't worth it the vast majority of the time. That 20% or more delay in when you can kill off a smash alone, (because landing tippers does lead up to a tipper kill far better than Lucina's damage) can make a huge difference

Which is why Lucina should be buffed

everyone should rally for that

A lot of high level marth/lucina play looks like this, even in the one where Lucina is played, Marth would do the same if not better, which is Lucina's problem. For playing well, Marth has a high propensity for being rewarded while Lucina doesn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieHO6kPrRmQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJDnfD9kUuU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRcLT_XqJT0

 

[LucinaNab1]

^Well allow me to retort... The better player could win with the worse character, am I right? If the so-called Marth pro couldn't also win with Lucina, wouldn't they be relying on the advantages too much? I'm just saying, no offense meant.

 

[Nyhte]

^Well allow me to retort... The better player could win with the worse character, am I right? If the so-called Marth pro couldn't also win with Lucina, wouldn't they be relying on the advantages too much? I'm just saying, no offense meant.

Sure, they could win with Lucina but it's fighting an uphill battle even more so than normal which gets to the second part of what you're saying-

I think Marth is really only somewhat good or okay, not great, Lucina being a worse-off version. Winning with Marth isn't playing the most overpowered or stacked character in the game, Marth tends to get kills that Lucina wouldn't which solidifies Marth being a better character, winning with either doesn't mean you didn't deserve anything, but you'd tend to put more effort in with Lucina and she's incapable of some things that Marth can do.

 

[LucinaNab1]

This concept can be carried further with the people who main Zelda or Palutena (two characters I have interest in, by the way). What about their uphill battle? Sure, I can beat my friends with Palutena, but I can tell a lot of her moves are too slow and too punishable on shield. I think both Marth and Lucina are competitively viable when someone works hard enough, but like I said elsewhere, people are going to use the better character when money is on the line.

Since I don't plan on going to any tournaments, I guess that doesn't apply to me. As I was saying elsewhere, I just want a place I can maturely discuss Lucina without dealing with the kinds of people I run into in places like GameFAQs or Miiverse.

I keep saying this over and over, but I've been waiting for a female sword user in Smash since after Melee came out. With Lucina being my answer to that, I'm not viable to easily switch to another main, unless they add a character like Marin (which, although I have high hopes, probably has low chance of happening).

 

[Wilty]

Keep the hands out of the controller and yes, lucina is not the best, the nature of the math say so, but...

"The right man in the wrong chracter can make all the difference in the match."

 

[LucinaNab1]

^And I know I'm definitely not that man. I got beat in FG by some Lucina who was doing some rapid fast falling n-airs, and my first thought was "What the hell is that?" It just looks like spamming to me. Competitive gaming has always been my undoing no matter what the game genre. At my age, it's no longer worth it to invest months and years into any game. There's probably easier ways to make money when it comes down to it.

My thing is, I'm reasonably good at many games, I can't even count them on two hands. I can pick up the controller, remember how to play, and just get going.

The problem is, I'm a master at nothing. Maybe Dr. Mario or Goldeneye, but even then, there's most likely someone better...

 

[Wilty]

C'mon dude don't be so hard with your self, mastering something require time... i got aprox 15 k games to master lucina at the finest, with b reverse, aerial matchs and that stuff... I love play against lucina, if the other dude is better than me i always save the match, and learn, and sometimes i share some of my best games to teach other guys how to use lucina. Watch replays and torunaments, practice that's the key time and patience.

If you had 3ds it would be awesome a match against your lucina ;D

 

[LucinaNab1]

I've had less than 200 matches online with Lucina, and I already feel like breaking a hole in my wall. I don't think I'm going to make it, lol. I already deleted all my saved names in frustration, so there goes any of my Lucina specific records... save all the matches I've been playing with a friend. I memorize what people do without even saving a replay... SH fast falls aren't that hard to do, I just find it weird people even do that, cause I've never seen that in Youtube matches. Not spamming it, anyway.

It's pretty much a done deal, if I keep playing online, I'll end up breaking a foot long hole in my wall... I've been having more fun playing Fire Emblem Awakening and Splatoon, and I RP with a friend. Easy is my kind of fun lol

 

[Wilty]

Doi it for lucina, and the hope for all lucina players in smash

 

[MankeyShank]

^And I know I'm definitely not that man. I got beat in FG by some Lucina who was doing some rapid fast falling n-airs, and my first thought was "What the hell is that?" It just looks like spamming to me. Competitive gaming has always been my undoing no matter what the game genre. At my age, it's no longer worth it to invest months and years into any game. There's probably easier ways to make money when it comes down to it.

My thing is, I'm reasonably good at many games, I can't even count them on two hands. I can pick up the controller, remember how to play, and just get going.

The problem is, I'm a master at nothing. Maybe Dr. Mario or Goldeneye, but even then, there's most likely someone better...

Wilty's right.

I've had less than 200 matches online with Lucina, and I already feel like breaking a hole in my wall. I don't think I'm going to make it, lol. I already deleted all my saved names in frustration, so there goes any of my Lucina specific records... save all the matches I've been playing with a friend. I memorize what people do without even saving a replay... SH fast falls aren't that hard to do, I just find it weird people even do that, cause I've never seen that in Youtube matches. Not spamming it, anyway.

It's pretty much a done deal, if I keep playing online, I'll end up breaking a foot long hole in my wall... I've been having more fun playing Fire Emblem Awakening and Splatoon, and I RP with a friend. Easy is my kind of fun lol

And there's no shame in that. You don't have to play Smash, or any game for that matter, competitively to have fun. I'm kinda on the same boat as you. Like, I enjoy the competitive aspect of Smash a lot, and I consider myself a fairly seasoned player; but will I ever achieve top professional level of skill? If I dedicated the time to, probably, yes; but there are other things I want to do in my life.

You seem like a pretty cool person, and I respect you.

Also, made a Lucina montage video. Not that it really justifies anything, just made it for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGi2EyPyTu0

 

[LucinaNab1]

I can be pretty cool most of the time, until I try to play many competitive matches in any online game, then I lose my cool. I've already spent 4 years getting beat by my friend in CoD and now I quit that. Having 3 AM yelling matches with my wall just wasn't working for me, lol.

I started out with a lot of hope, fanboyism and waifuism. But if I can't even beat people on FG, what hope do I ever have to reach master level? If SH fast fall Nairs can shut down almost all of my offensive approach, I don't feel there's much hope.

Do it for Lucina? I already make her a Dark Flier in FE:A, make her tear up everything in sight and max almost all her stats, and marry her with Robin. What am I missing?

 

[UmbreonMageBrando]

I started out with a lot of hope, fanboyism and waifuism. But if I can't even beat people on FG, what hope do I ever have to reach master level? If SH fast fall Nairs can shut down almost all of my offensive approach, I don't feel there's much hope.

Tbh, I use to think the same way, I've had a hard time dealing with FG links, spamuses, falcons, and D3s as lucina and it frustrated the heck out of me, but I never gave up on trying to become better at smash even if it did seemed bleak for me. There were times where a part of me just wants me to put down the controller after getting bodied by FG players and call it a day especially after getting insulted on top of being bodied but another part of me refuses to let me do so and wants me to keep at it until I succeed. I feel like determination and perseverance plays a large role in helping people become better at smash.

It takes time for people to improve their gameplay especially when you are playing as characters that require more skill to use at an acceptable level, I feel like if I'm going to improve as a smash player I might as well do it with the characters I either love or enjoy playing as.

At this point I feel that you can't go on FG without being insulted by other players after either boding them or being bodied yourself which is why I almost never go on FG and play on Anther's ladder instead which still has the occasional sore winners and salty losers but a vast majority of people on there are very nice and respectful of your skills as a smash player and know that players like me are still learning and have a long road ahead of them. I know that there are respectful players on FG but I rarely see people on FG who don't insult you in some way. Tbh I just don't want my competitive smash experience to feel the same as my experience with competitive pokemon where people on pokemon showdown either rage quit when something doesn't go their way or when they miss a dark void, hypnosis,sleep powder, or bash at you when you win or lose.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

as you say, there definitely are reasons to play lucina over marth, and while lucina is an "easy marth" that doesn't mean she's a worse character

thankfully since their differences are still relatively small, you can easily pick one or the other depending on the matchup

 

[LucinaNab1]

Yep, that's me when I lose, I'll leave the room right after, or stand up out of my chair and throw something. lol

I just don't have the patience anymore. This isn't a decade or more ago when I had months or years to waste on this sort of thing.

I'm kinda in an Emmeryn and Tiki mood. They are love and life lol

 

[Rewrite]

as you say, there definitely are reasons to play lucina over marth, and while lucina is an "easy marth" that doesn't mean she's a worse character

thankfully since their differences are still relatively small, you can easily pick one or the other depending on the matchup

Except we've already confirmed that in every situation Marth WILL outperform Lucina. These aren't *small differences. There are ZERO match-ups where not having the extended range, damage, and safety of the tipper is better an any way. In a competitive setting there is legitimately no reason to ever pick Lucina over Marth.

I've sunk hours and hours into both characters (both of them my top two most played) and I actually have some difficulty playing Lucina. The reason for that is I'm so used to spacing for the tip on Marth's attacks that as Lucina I will constantly whiff attacks because I am always spacing for the tipper.

The seemingly obvious solution to this problem is that I should adjust my spacing for Lucina's shorter ranged attacks which I can do after a minute or so, but that's not the point. The point is why would I ever do that when I can just play Marth the exact same way, move for move since they have the exact same base kit with the exact same playstyle, and receive a greater reward?

Sure, Lucina has received some minimal damage buffs here and there, but so long as the tipper always provides more range, damage, killing power, and safety it will always be better.



But let's nip this in the bud once and for all and run one last experiment:

*the following experiment does not take move staling, rage effect, or Directional Influence into account

Let's pretend that Marth's tipper f-smash is so hard to land that not even the best Marth could do it, and is therefore 100% useless.

Marth's un-tippered f-smash kills Mario at the side of Battlefield at 104%.
Lucina's f-smash kills at the side of Battlefield against Mario at 80%.

Looking at one of their core spacing tools, Lucina's f-air does 8 damage while Marth's tippered f-air does 10% damage and is very easy to space.

Lucina needs to land 8 fairs for f-smash to kill Mario. Marth needs barely half of an un-tipped fair more for his un-tipped f-smash to kill Mario. Just one move more, and literally anything at that. If you get a grab and pummel before throwing you probably won't even need an extra fair.

Now let's add Marth's tippered f-smash back into the equation which kills Mario at the side of Battlefield at 48% which takes just 5 tipped fairs to reach.

Are you trying to tell me that Lucina is better than Marth when Marth needs just one more hit (and potentially the same amount) for his sourspot f-smash to kill, but also rewards me for being skillful by potentially killing half as soon? No way.



In every thread addressing this issue there have been multiple people writing out multiple essay length posts explaining in great detail why this is so. The Lucina mains respond with what SEEMS logical (i.e. I don't have to worry about spacing), but it doesn't hold up since spacing is so crucial to their playstyle and those people whom can space consistently will always receive a greater reward. No matter how many times this song and dance plays out the Lucina mains always fall back on some form of "I have more success with Lucina's consistent blade, therefore it is better." At this point I'm just going to let the Lucina boards wallow in their delusions.

EDIT: Small grammar correction.

 

[Caryslan]

I'm not going to go into any arguments about frame data or that kinda stuff, because quite frankly I don't look at that stuff. What I will say is this. I have won more matches(Team Battles, Free for Alls, and 1 on 1s) with Lucina then I ever have with Marth across three games.

Lucina is in the top three characters(alongside Ganondorf and Ike) in terms of KOs, wins, etc across two versions of Smash. Marth is near the bottom, and I have pretty much given up on him.

One of my issues with playing Marth is the tipper. It seems like when I want to go for a KO, I always nail the sour spot or alternately, the tipper screws me over because it knocks the opponent back further then I would have wanted. I'm sure there are Marth players ready to toss cold hard data at me and show how Lucina sucks in ever category compared to him.

But I don't care. If I wanted to just win by picking the best character according to data, I would be a Shiek or Diddy player.

Lucina for me get results. I can win matches with her, and I prefer how she plays over Marth. I've never really had anymore trouble getting KOs with her then I have with Marth. In fact, it often feels like Marth has more issues getting KOs then she does because I tend to hit the sourspot more then I do the tipper.

Now, does the data support that? Most likely not. I'm sure a Marth player can get insane results with him because they learned the options with the tipper, and the spacing that playing Marth requires.

I was an Ike player in Brawl. I still play Ike, and so, Lucina felt more natural to play then Marth did. Ike can pretty much get solid results regardless of where he hits with his sword, and that is why I like playing Lucina. In the heat of a match, I don't have to worry about spacing so I can land the tipper. I can worry more about if my spacing will keep my oppoent out of range and is safe without having to land a sweet spot.

As for Roy, I can't compare him to Lucina. I have not bought his DLC yet since I opted for Ryu the last time I had money on the eshop. Once I can buy him, I'll give my opinion of him compared to Lucina.

Why do I play Lucina? Because I can both enjoy playing as her and I can win.

I'm not knocking Marth, I'm sure data proves that he's the better character. But as long as I get solid results from her, and can even beat Marth and Roy players, then I'm happy to play as her.

 

[O1DsLeNdYwHiTe]

Here's food for thought; If you're investing time into either one, and experiencing significant and preferable results, then play them. Don't conform to their preferences just because they establish some degrading and irrelevant comment about how a majority of Lucina players only play her over Marth because they have "bad spacing".

If you play the character, then play the damn character. It should honestly be left at that.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I'm investing time into Lucina, but I'm getting discouraged. I'm poor at performing rapid controller inputs, and I easily get flustered during matches. I know I can't up my game without doing advanced maneuvers, but they're just so darn hard to do, especially pivot attacking. My spacing ability is fairly average. But I use punishable moves too much, mainly fairs. Maybe for now I'll just work on doing SH retreating airs...

 

[Wilty]

Disney fails 1000 times and never give up, you need more will m8... i play always for glory, but im playing like for fun, against ganan are very epic, i dunno, it seems the perfect antagonist for her, try to put a little story in the fight maybe you can find it enjoyable, een if you lost the game

 

[LucinaNab1]

I have at least 7 dents in my wall that prove this isn't turning out all that well for me, and one threatens to become a hole. I'm literally becoming like Chrom and Lucina breaking down walls when they train, 'ey? Of course, the feeling of wanting to knock someone's head off that's been accompanying it isn't helping. I literally haven't been playing online Smash for a whole week and I'm still mad at what happened last weekend.

 

[Project_B]

I have at least 7 dents in my wall that prove this isn't turning out all that well for me, and one threatens to become a hole. I'm literally becoming like Chrom and Lucina breaking down walls when they train, 'ey? Of course, the feeling of wanting to knock someone's head off that's been accompanying it isn't helping. I literally haven't been playing online Smash for a whole week and I'm still mad at what happened last weekend.

Many people here say that Lucina is a character that limits a player enough to make victory impossible, but with the right knowledge of Smash, it is very possible.
Unless you are going to hardcore tournaments, you don't need anything really advanced, it is your understanding of the game and its mechanics that will, in the end, allow you to win more easily. Understanding human habits, or even just knowing your character or matchups better is far more important than rapid finger movement in a game like Smash 4.

I don't know if you play any characters other than Lucina, but if you don't, you should fight a CPU or go into training mode with another character, particularly one that you have been having trouble beating. Learn how that character plays and what it can do. Heck, if you want to, practice several new characters to get a better sense of how to pick the best option that a character has in a given situation.

Learn your character's true/almost true combos. With Lucina, if you learn to land a falling up air (easily done by fast falling and hitting the c-stick or right stick up soon before you hit the ground, which ends the move and lets you act), it combos into an up tilt, up air, or even a forward smash at low percents - and this was true even before the patch that buffed ALL of Lucina's aerials! Down throw can combo into an up air or back air at low percents, and even at higher percents if you jump up (don't short hop) and wait until your opponent air-dodges. These and other combos are easily found online.

If you haven't been watching top level play for your character, you can do that to see how people use the same options and kit that you have. Seeing a great player might even inspire you!

Since my days playing Brawl, I have been somewhat obsessed by the player Nairo. In Smash 4, he has become an amazing player, and he likes to "fight for his waifus"; I've seen him play every female character in the game at an amazing level. He has won tournaments and earned money with the characters (Palutena, Lucina, Pre-patch Robin, etc.) that everyone talking to you was saying that it was impossible to win anything competitive using. He often plays Lucina on his stream and at local tournaments as well in the Tri-State.

Watching his Robin (the female costume of course) inspired me to stick with the character even though everyone kept telling me she was bad, and now I can get a great deal of success with Robin, offline and online. And I haven't even tried her out after she was given an amazing new combo throw!

By no means do you need to, but if you would like to see what he has done with Lucina, it's on YouTube: (sorry I don't have links)

Smash 4 Wars # 35 - Round 1 Grand Finals
Smash 4 Wars # 35 - Hack vs Nairo
There are others, but I can't remember them right now.

I know these videos showcase a professional player, but they are still pretty amazing to me, seeing how he's playing a character that many professionals and non-professionals disregard.

I wish you the best in improving, and I really hope you stick with the game, even if it's only as an occasional hobby, because, though it can be frustrating for all of us, it is doable, and the game can certainly be very fun for competitive players; that's why they play it as such, only about two players actually make a living off of their smash career. Stick with Lucina, play how you want, and if you get frustrated, there is always something you can do, or at the very least just come to Smashboards! Thanks for reading this whole thing!

 

[LucinaNab1]

I've come to the realization that there's almost no player vs player gaming that I actually enjoy (Unless it's Goldeneye or Dr. Mario), so I tend to stick to the tried and true genre that I really enjoy, and where Lucina herself hails from: RPGs. I can play RPGs for hours, grinding, farming, doing all the things I've been doing over the last 13 years. It's come to be the most relaxing and creative form of gaming for me.

I realize I don't care to have what it takes for competitive gaming (I even hate PvP in pretty much any RPG game). I decided to bow out before this dent behind me truly becomes a hole. For the sake of keeping my room walls intact, I've retreated back to RPG gaming. Yes, after 4 years of trying to play competitive (CoD, Halo, and Smash), it's time to quit while I'm ahead. I have no desire to go to tournaments or be good enough to go to tournaments. Games to me are a way to have fun and relax, and if I'm not doing that, then it's time to quit.

Oh, and for the record, I'm better than I make myself seem... I can pretty much trash anything any level 9 cpu throws at me one on one, I use quite a few other characters such as Palutena, Zelda, and Rosalina, but... that wall behind me really is begging for mercy.

I've found this one game called ArcheAge. Beautiful character customization. I also just got my friend into Runescape, so yeah... safe to say I'll be busy for months to come. It's been fun playing online Smash (and I use "fun" very frivolously), but it's about time I stop lying to myself and stick to the tried and true that always has been fun for me.