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Is Lucas going to be better in 4 or worse?

Is Lucas going to be better in 4 or worse?

  • Yes he'll be a bit/a lot better

    Votes: 74 73.3%
  • No he got Nerf so he won't be good

    Votes: 4 4.0%
  • I don't care I play the way I can play him

    Votes: 28 27.7%

  • Total voters
    101

StarBlue

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All in all, I think Lucas is likely to be a lot faster, as seen in his trailer, for example that dtilt into neutral combo. In Brawl, the dtilt would've taken a lot more time before he can follow up with the rest. Aside from what everyone here said, I'm assuming the only bad thing that will happen to Lucas would be his lack of customs (A shame since I was hoping for a PK Love custom) but I doubt that would hinder him at all.
TL;DR , I think :4lucas: will be great.​
 

Lord Retardus

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Speaking of magnet, we have little to no idea how it's going to turn out. In Brawl it was objectively superior to Ness's in every single way (Turned around so its 'weakness' was a moot point, did damage - to the point of KOing, IIRC - and healed more than Ness's) but then Ness's custom magnet is heavily nerfed in every respect. Will Lucas's suffer the same fate, or will it be like Freeze and Fire and have no discernable difference from Brawl?
 

StarBlue

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Speaking of magnet, we have little to no idea how it's going to turn out. In Brawl it was objectively superior to Ness's in every single way (Turned around so its 'weakness' was a moot point, did damage - to the point of KOing, IIRC - and healed more than Ness's) but then Ness's custom magnet is heavily nerfed in every respect. Will Lucas's suffer the same fate, or will it be like Freeze and Fire and have no discernable difference from Brawl?
Who knows, You can only make assumptions out of his trailer, and so far, the special moves seem to have less cooldown than they used to, unless they edited it. It is likely though that he can keep the superiority, as it's his original move after all, and he has no custom move to replace it.
 

PKBeam

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  • he didn't seem to gain any significant direct buffs
  • it's very likely that none of his shown attacks got any substantial speed boosts
  • in fact some or many aspects probably got nerfed.
    • RIP recovery
the only confirmed (kind of) reason he would be better is that he can't get ground released or air released into dumb **** like Sheik's DACUS.
If Nair isn't laggier and they didnt nerf his other aerials then he probably keeps most of his combo game from Brawl.
dash attack could reeeaaaaally use a boost. it did kill but it was way too slow on either ends to be useful at all.

yeah unless there's a really useful AT discovered for him I don't think he's much higher than upper mid at best.
 

Lord Retardus

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  • in fact some or many aspects probably got nerfed.
    • RIP recovery
"RIP Recovery"? What? There's zero evidence anything has nerfed his recovery. In fact, the trailer seems to portray his Rope Snake as longer, suggesting a buffed recovery. Also, the mere existence of Ledge Trumping improves his recovery dramatically.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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"RIP Recovery"? What? There's zero evidence anything has nerfed his recovery. In fact, the trailer seems to portray his Rope Snake as longer, suggesting a buffed recovery. Also, the mere existence of Ledge Trumping improves his recovery dramatically.
Not to mention, with more threats in Sm4sh capable of gimping Ness's recovery (like Villager or Rosalina), Lucas can rely on another form of a one, opening for plenty mix-ups. Would be very important during Villager MU because Rope Snake Tethering might be susceptible for Bowling Ball gimp, but varying recoveries according to the would Lucas's time with Villager tons easier.
 

Jigglystep

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Would be very important during Villager MU because Rope Snake Tethering might be susceptible for Bowling Ball gimp, but varying recoveries according to the would Lucas's time with Villager tons easier.
On the topic of the Villager MU, I can see Lucas's near lagless F-Smash proving useful for reflecting Lloid Rockets and such, in addition to his great anti-zoning tool in PK Fire. I see him having a much easier time vs. Villager than Ness does. In general he'll have a much easier time recovering than Ness does, which I think is vital in some matchups.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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On the topic of the Villager MU, I can see Lucas's near lagless F-Smash proving useful for reflecting Lloid Rockets and such, in addition to his great anti-zoning tool in PK Fire. I see him having a much easier time vs. Villager than Ness does. In general he'll have a much easier time recovering than Ness does, which I think is vital in some matchups.
That too, really. Lucas would be a nightmare against projectile spammers and mostly zoners alike when played really well.
Very stoked to see what all can be done with him.
 

StarBlue

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Lucas would be a nightmare against projectile spammers and mostly zoners alike when played really well.
Now that you mention it...Lucas might actually be able to stop things like Luigi Grabbers or other characters who use range and then go in for a grab thank to the fsmash and his magnet, since it has a hitbox and it works in front of him.
 

Lord Retardus

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That's... a strikingly good point. He's still gotta watch out for aerial approaches, though, since there is still a moment of endlag when you finish with PSI Magnet IIRC. And Luigi Tornado is never not annoying.
 
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~ Valkyrie ~

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That's... a strikingly good point. He's still gotta watch out for aerial approaches, though, since there is still a moment of endlag when you finish with PSI Magnet IIRC. And Luigi Tornado is never not annoying.
In general, Luigi's (and other possibly similar characters) options would be more limited, giving Lucas more evened match-up - along with having more safer choices to take on Luigi via decent aerial game + speed. And that's after we get to weed out who play Luigi for easy grab combo wins.

However, we also need to also practice DI:ng out of his aerials after the throws. Wonder if we can counter 'em with spaced aerials, ike F-Air, though Luigi's comes stupidly fast and deals 12 % which is pretty nasty when combo'd. I hope Lucas keeps F-Air's hitbox from Brawl, as it'd be pretty good at repelling these sort of aerial beasts.

Luigi Cyclone on ground I think we can punish with PK Fire, since it was that way in Brawl - since Lucas also has the momentum recoil back, it helps, especially if wavebouncing might be back too.
Aerial Cyclone is different beast but I think we do well just avoiding and hopefully punishing with U-Air if Luigi is enough close to the upper blast zone.

Also, aerial approaches would be very fun to punish with PKT1 BTW of on ground, especially if Looping and Uppercut is back. Luigi being floaty helps a lot with that. Also, gimping potential. I remember gimping Luigis in my Brawl and PM pretty easy with PKT1.
 
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Jinlennon

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In general, Luigi's (and other possibly similar characters) options would be more limited, giving Lucas more evened match-up - along with having more safer choices to take on Luigi via decent aerial game + speed. And that's after we get to weed out who play Luigi for easy grab combo wins.

However, we also need to also practice DI:ng out of his aerials after the throws. Wonder if we can counter 'em with spaced aerials, ike F-Air, though Luigi's comes stupidly fast and deals 12 % which is pretty nasty when combo'd. I hope Lucas keeps F-Air's hitbox from Brawl, as it'd be pretty good at repelling these sort of aerial beasts.

Luigi Cyclone on ground I think we can punish with PK Fire, since it was that way in Brawl - since Lucas also has the momentum recoil back, it helps, especially if wavebouncing might be back too.
Aerial Cyclone is different beast but I think we do well just avoiding and hopefully punishing with U-Air if Luigi is enough close to the upper blast zone.

Also, aerial approaches would be very fun to punish with PKT1 BTW of on ground, especially if Looping and Uppercut is back. Luigi being floaty helps a lot with that. Also, gimping potential. I remember gimping Luigis in my Brawl and PM pretty easy with PKT1.
I main Luigi and zss (hoping to add Lucas to my team ;) ), i'm really curious to know how it's going to be the MU bewtween Lucas and Luigi. Luigi can be very annoying because of his nair and general priority. Framedata will be very important for Lucas, or against characters like Yoshi and Luigi (for example) will be really hard.
 

~ Valkyrie ~

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I main Luigi and zss (hoping to add Lucas to my team ;) ), i'm really curious to know how it's going to be the MU bewtween Lucas and Luigi. Luigi can be very annoying because of his nair and general priority. Framedata will be very important for Lucas, or against characters like Yoshi and Luigi (for example) will be really hard.
Pretty much. I quite hope Lucas's aerial game or other tools can give him some edge against these characters, since I've noticed that their air speed, quick and very potent attacks + general priority makes them pretty maddening one-sided match if not played seriously against. Mostly through disjointed hitboxes which I want to see being good enough to space or combo break away from Luigi. Though his N-Air might make it difficult to do that, I think.
 

Lord Retardus

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Hmmm. So judging by the footage someone got by hacking their WiiU, Rope Snake has been hugely buffed, Nair has more endlag (sad, but true) and PK Starstorm (lol who cares about final smashes anyway) is wider than Ness's. Since the guy didn't seem to know how to steer it we have no estimates on its speed, but I'm gonna assume it's either slower or weaker than Ness's to balance it out.
 

EnhaloTricks

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after playing a couple CPU matches with him before work... Better. Definitely. D throw -> nair -> nair is real. Magnet bouncing is more or less still in, pk fire still pushes a bit, his recovery is HUGE (but only looks like it hurts for the first 2/3 of it), neutral b goes SO far.

I'm so excited to get home and experiment more. He seems like he's got more tools and potential than ever.
 

Masque

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Dthrow > Nair
Dthrow > Bair (meteor)
Dthrow > Uair
Dthrow > Usmash
All of those worked at 0% ~ low percentages.

Can't remember if this was true in Brawl, but the sweet spot (hexagon) on Fair does 11% instead of 8% and has awesome knock back. Basically Zelda's Fair but slightly weaker and way easier to land.
Similar property with Ftilt.

Dtilt can be used to jab lock if you hit with the very tip of his foot.

Rope Snake Zair does 2% and has solid range.

Will post more as I figure it out!
 
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EnhaloTricks

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Dthrow > Nair
Dthrow > Bair (meteor)
Dthrow > Uair
Dthrow > Usmash
All of those worked at 0% ~ low percentages.

Can't remember if this was true in Brawl, but the sweet spot (hexagon) on Fair does 11% instead of 8% and has awesome knock back. Basically Zelda's Fair but slightly weaker and way easier to land.
Similar property with Ftilt.

Dtilt can be used to jab lock if you hit with the very tip of his foot.

Rope Snake Zair does 2% and has solid range.

Will post more as I figure it out!
Dthrow -> nair -> usmash works at low percents (an easy ~%38)
If you shff nair you can do it over and over again at low percents. I just did it 5 times in a row to a friend.

Found that PSIM does good knockback around 110% or so, enough to push them far away. Best way I've found to hit with it is during an nair/fair to a b reversed PSIM.

I think you can use dash attack and nair to go into a jab lock at low percents, ~10% or so.

Dash -> nair works... like, all the time. Until around 50% or so.
 

link2702

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So over the internet and miiverse people have been saying Lucas won't be good in 4 because he was OP in brawl plus dont forget about the nerfs and others say he's going to be better in 4 then brawl.In my opinion I don't care if he's better or worse its just they way you play them.Anyways I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions.
anyone who thought lucas was OP'd in brawl needs to be slapped. Hard. By the hulk.

lucas was mediocre at best in brawl. getting grab release chaingrab pwned by marth, and grab release setups on him in general greatly hurt him. It took a hugely skilled lucas to master all his PSI magnet shenanigans, zap jumping, and his dtilt ground lock setups, and even with all that mastered you still had a hard time as him against any players using high tier characters and had just a slight idea of what they were doing.
 

divade

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We can get some approaching reach with magnet if you jump cancel with it.
Magnet only has a hit box only at the hand in the first moment you open it?
I can't reverse my momentum with magnet ( i can with Freeze though).
We can float by spamming magnet.
 

SpandexBullets

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So, here's my rundown:

• Dair and nair have significantly smaller hitboxes and are less useful
• Dair is still a meteor smash, and is the only immediate meteor smash in the game
• Nair still drags down opponents
• Nair can autocancel, which allows lucas to drag down opponents for combos and grabs
• sweetspot bair is harder to hit,
• fair is the same
• Psy effects replace the stun effects from Brawl, which harms Lucas's aerials as they are not as useful.

• D-throw combos into u-air, fair and b-air at many percents
• D-throw to spike bair at 30-70%
• D-throw to u-air is a hoo hah, but can be DI'd due to small hitbox
• d-throw to fair is easier to get and lasts till about 80%
• Pk fire has less range, but retains usefulness, and is semi-spammable
• Psy magnet same, slightly bigger for absorbing energy
• PK Thunder more distance covered (recover from the lower blast-line to the edge of FD distance)
• d-tilt combos into jab combo at any percent
• dash attack is much faster and has two trajectories; tip can kill, mid section pops opponents up for combos at low percents

• Lucas's throw game is OP
• Up throw kills at 100-140 depending on character,
• Back-throw kills, about 20% later than u-throw
• Down-throw is great for combos until 100%
• F-throw is eh
• All do 10%, except for d-throw, which does 6%

• z-air is good, but kind of laggy when compared to Samus or ZSS
• PK freeze comes out faster and is actually useful


Overall, I think Lucas was buffed from Brawl. He can no longer stun and drag down opponents for ground combos and kill set-ups as effectively as he did in Brawl, but he's now got some great zoning/spacing ability, amazing kill options at the 100-130% range, a solid projectile, but mediocre range and little to no means of approach. He can definitely bait out approaches with PK fire and z-air, but characters with solid projectiles like Diddy and Link give him serious trouble.
 
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ForteX

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zair actually damages in this one? Buffed overall confirmed. Played as Lucas all day and never even tried it.

I don't see anyone mentioning it but usmash is unreal now. I got no-rage kills on Little Mac and Roy today as a result of a good read, didn't even really have to charge it. Both were at 60-70% or so when they got hit. Unfortunately I can't even remember the stage, but low ceilings probably had something to do with it.

I'm having some problems coming up with approaches from my day of play with him so far. Fair honestly seems like a good option, but it isn't too safe vs shield. PK Fire is once again pretty much one of the greatest moves ever conceived and since you can pop Lucas back with it, it's probably the best approach option I used today.
 

ShadowKing

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zair actually damages in this one? Buffed overall confirmed. Played as Lucas all day and never even tried it.

I don't see anyone mentioning it but usmash is unreal now. I got no-rage kills on Little Mac and Roy today as a result of a good read, didn't even really have to charge it. Both were at 60-70% or so when they got hit. Unfortunately I can't even remember the stage, but low ceilings probably had something to do with it.

I'm having some problems coming up with approaches from my day of play with him so far. Fair honestly seems like a good option, but it isn't too safe vs shield. PK Fire is once again pretty much one of the greatest moves ever conceived and since you can pop Lucas back with it, it's probably the best approach option I used today.
Ya same here but I try to scare my opponent with a prepared spike but instead go with a neutral air
 
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SpandexBullets

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Yeah up smash makes opponents rage quit.

And so do the throws; I made a Ryu rage-quit after killing him at 80% with 140% rage centre stage with backthrow.
 

Mysteltainn

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U-Smash edge-guarding is hype. I also missed Lucas' PSI Fire / PSI Magnet manoeuvring shenanigans when using them in the air; it can really throw people off when they're trying to get you from below.

It's way too early to say if he'll be on par with Ness or not... I am however having difficulty personally with getting out of combos, particularly Mario / Luigi ones. Ness has N-Air which gets him out of nearly anything, but I've yet to find the equivalent for Lucas. What do you guys do?

Also, Rope Snake is sexy. The situations that thing has already pulled me out of on only day one just shows how helpful it'll be.
 
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BlazGreen

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The Smash 4 engine is a lot kinder to characters like Ness and Lucas so he should be better regardless of how good or bad his move properties are. Ness is a top 5 character so even if he's better than Lucas in the long run it doesn't really mean much. I can see Lucas being top 15 or higher.
 

SpandexBullets

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As i've said, Lucas is very viable in competitive play:
• Above-par grab game
• Good projectiles
• Anti-energy Magnet
• Great damage-racking aerials than can drag opponents down to extend combos or net kills
• Small, thin hurtbox
• z-air
• Amazing followups and combo starters
• Unpredictable landing options
• Solid recovery and double jump
• Unparalleled killing options (except maybe Mewtwo)
• Best kill throws per character in the game
But...
• Hitboxes are much smaller and multi-hit moves are much harder to hit foes with, which is a huge nerf
• Lots of lag on ground moves requires commitment to approach
• Psymoves no longer stun as they did in Brawl, leaving characters able to escape earlier than they previously would have
• Very floaty, like Peach/Samus floaty
 
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