Is Lucas going to be better in 4 or worse?

[ShadowKing]

So over the internet and miiverse people have been saying Lucas won't be good in 4 because he was OP in brawl plus dont forget about the nerfs and others say he's going to be better in 4 then brawl.In my opinion I don't care if he's better or worse its just they way you play them.Anyways I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Smog Frog]

no grab release bull****=better . no questions asked.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

No one will really know until post release.

Butt yeah, at least since the grab release stuff is gone, he will be better in that regard.

 

[Demon-oni]

Overall just from the engine changes if nothing else he benefits from. Multi hit attacks are better overall so his Dair, Nair, Up b and PK2 all benefit from this, no grab release shenanigans means he's not auto D tier, and he even has the super extended ledge grapple now that can't be edge hogged, so he has real options to recovery unlike Ness. If nothing else changes thats good as is.

 

[Drippy]

people have been saying Lucas won't be good in 4 because he was OP in brawl.

Uhh... what?

 

[Demon-oni]

Uhh... what?

You have to remember Drippy that roughly 60% of the player base that was non competitive in Brawl thought Sonic was OP. Just roll with it bro,

 

[Drippy]

You have to remember Drippy that roughly 60% of the player base that was non competitive in Brawl thought Sonic was OP. Just roll with it bro,

True... I did think Sonic was broken back than, effing Smash Ball...

 

[MoveMan1]

Not a competitive player, but here's what I know about the differences between Brawl and 4:

• Edgehogging is gone, replaced by edgetrumping
• Chaingrabs don exits
• Shielding as a defensive option has been buffed
• Rolling as a defensive option has been nerfed

Do any of these help or hinder Lucas in anyway?

 

[Smog Frog]

the edgehogging and chaingrabbing removals are exponential buffs to . if there were % numbers as to why was the absolute bottom of low mid in brawl, the grab release bull**** was a hot 80% of it. recovery wasnt really an issue when you had zap jump, but its a welcome buff. the shielding buff depends on whether or not gets good reward off a grab. his reward in brawl was mediocre. and rolling was buffed, idk what you're talking about. i think you mean airdodge? well anyways, if its rolling, he can catch careless rolls with usmash, and he can frame trap airdodges with usmash. also bair.

 

[Masque]

The fact that he won't be getting chaingrabbed this time around is already a huge boost. Couple that with the fact that his recovery has improved vastly thanks to the new tether mechanics, I foresee our boy doing pretty well this time around.

 

[Jigglystep]

I think his recovery becoming far less exploitable due to the new mechanics (no ledgehogging PK Thunder, no ledgehogging tether) will be a huge buff from Brawl in itself. Aside from that, lack of chaingrabs/grab release BS also extremely benefit him as others have said.

So yeah, changes to his moveset aside, I honestly think Lucas is already a better character in the Smash 4 mechanics.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Do you guys think the somewhat increased hitstun and faster gameplay would let us get more kick out of Lucas's moveset than in Brawl? I think Brawl kept hindering it's potential due the floatiness and lack of hitstun...

 

[Jinlennon]

Frame data will be very important, if it won't be good, against characters like Yoshi or Luigi (for example) our's boy will be really hard to use.

 

[Smog Frog]

if pm taught us anything, hitstun makes for some godlike combos.

 

[Jigglystep]

Do you guys think the somewhat increased hitstun and faster gameplay would let us get more kick out of Lucas's moveset than in Brawl? I think Brawl kept hindering it's potential due the floatiness and lack of hitstun...

Oh definitely. I've recently been practicing Lucas in Brawl and I've noticed that while his low cooldown moveset flows together nicely followup-wise, Brawl's hitstun canceling allows for the opponent to be just shy of getting hit and escape for free by airdodging into the ground. Stuff like autocanceled Nair > Fair, sourspot Fair > Uair/Fair, and fastfall Uair > Fair seem to link so well, but alas, Brawl's airdodges are stupidly good.

Even if there is still some lack of hitstun on his moves in Smash 4, the new airdodge landing lag mechanic will make our opponents think twice before leaving themselves open to a deadly PK Love Up-Smash..

Oh, and I can also gather that his grab will definitely be incredibly powerful. In Brawl, he had one of the fastest pummels in the game.. and one of the strongest, doing 3% per headbutt. Now imagine a guaranteed aerial off of a down-throw with Smash 4's increased hitstun. 3 pummels (9%) > down-throw (7%) > Uair (13%) is a clean 29% combo.

 

[Jinlennon]

In brawl his killt throw was down throw...what about now? Up throw? Powerful back throw just like Ness?

 

[Smog Frog]

in brawl, his dthrow was actually a combo throw at low %s(into utilt, for 18% until like 20%). his bthrow was actually also a kill throw, just a bit weaker than . now that hitstuns actually in the game, i bet that will be able to pull off intricate strings.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Oh definitely. I've recently been practicing Lucas in Brawl and I've noticed that while his low cooldown moveset flows together nicely followup-wise, Brawl's hitstun canceling allows for the opponent to be just shy of getting hit and escape for free by airdodging into the ground. Stuff like autocanceled Nair > Fair, sourspot Fair > Uair/Fair, and fastfall Uair > Fair seem to link so well, but alas, Brawl's airdodges are stupidly good.

Basically what I felt, really. Didn't help how you could be attacked out of end-lag in some aerials if they managed to shield from there.

Even if there is still some lack of hitstun on his moves in Smash 4, the new airdodge landing lag mechanic will make our opponents think twice before leaving themselves open to a deadly PK Love Up-Smash..

Quite a good point. I'm looking forward to pull off massive hard reads with that.

Oh, and I can also gather that his grab will definitely be incredibly powerful. In Brawl, he had one of the fastest pummels in the game.. and one of the strongest, doing 3% per headbutt. Now imagine a guaranteed aerial off of a down-throw with Smash 4's increased hitstun. 3 pummels (9%) > down-throw (7%) > Uair (13%) is a clean 29% combo.

Hopefully they don't nerf that pummel about, hmm. Seems quite potent now when I think about that.

in brawl, his dthrow was actually a combo throw at low %s(into utilt, for 18% until like 20%). his bthrow was actually also a kill throw, just a bit weaker than . now that hitstuns actually in the game, i bet that will be able to pull off intricate strings.

Heh! Quite wondering which throws or attacks to apply from low percentages to higher. In anycase, very excited to see what he has to offer with it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My prediction is unless he gets a better DA, he'll probably still be unimpressive. Though he has a strong chance of getting a Z-air in neutral. Look at ZSS.

 

[Smog Frog]

can you elaborate why? a dash attack isnt your only tool in mid range. wavebounce pk fire has enough recoil to be safe.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

My prediction is unless he gets a better DA, he'll probably still be unimpressive. Though he has a strong chance of getting a Z-air in neutral. Look at ZSS.

I hope they make Rope Snake have little biting hitbox + animation to make that Z-Air. Would be so cute and deadly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

can you elaborate why? a dash attack isnt your only tool in mid range. wavebounce pk fire has enough recoil to be safe.

But does wavebounce PK Fire beat reaction time? You do sacrifice a lot of stage control whenever you do a wavebounce to retreat.

The top tiers in this game generally have multiple strong ground tools that both control a lot of space and beat reaction time (sometimes for excessive reward probably). That's kinda the stuff that wins the game, if you think about it.

 

[Agent Emerald]

I hope they make Rope Snake have little biting hitbox + animation to make that Z-Air. Would be so cute and deadly.

I can imagine the tiny mouth snapping at Heavyweights like Bowser despite lacking fangs.

2cute4me

 

[Jigglystep]

Zair having a hitbox would be a godsend in neutral. As if Nair shield pressure wasn't scary enough.

Though I honestly don't think Lucas struggles too much in that regard. He has PK Fire, a disjointed autocanceling Fair, a heavy shield damaging autocanceling Nair that you can easily cross up with, and a quick tether pivot grab.

 

[Jinlennon]

Zair having a hitbox would be a godsend in neutral. As if Nair shield pressure wasn't scary enough.

Though I honestly don't think Lucas struggles too much in that regard. He has PK Fire, a disjointed autocanceling Fair, a heavy shield damaging autocanceling Nair that you can easily cross up with, and a quick tether pivot grab.

We don't know if lucas still have autocanceling nair...i hope so.

 

[Jigglystep]

We don't know if lucas still have autocanceling nair...i hope so.

Oh, yeah, I was going off of Brawl.. I'm crossing my fingers that he doesn't get any nerfs to his autocancels.. Sakurai please. ;_;

But from the looks of it in the trailer, Nair seems to end fairly quick discounting the hitlag.

 

[Smog Frog]

you know what would be even better? autocancel dair. it was his fastest aerial in brawl(a whopping startup of 4 frames!) and autocanceled if used while rising in a short hop, which is how his crazy locks started. if his dair is unchanged, it will be an amazing oos option.

 

[Mysteltainn]

The lack of chain-grabs, better recovery options and an engine that probably suits Lucas a little better does seem to be paving a nice entry path for Lucas if you ask me. However, frame data will play a pretty big role in his ability to deal with the current top tier characters.

I'll play him regardless of where he ends up though, personally.

 

[ShadowKing]

So I was just playing smash brawl using Lucas and his up smash kills real early and I was watching Lucas Nintendo direct and notices that his down grab gets them stuck into the ground.that could turn into a combo
With a up smash

 

[rp17000]

his down grab gets them stuck into the ground

That was debunked long ago. The dirt is just a fancy effect for his down throw, and the opponent doesn't get stuck in the ground.

 

[Jigglystep]

So I was just playing smash brawl using Lucas and his up smash kills real early and I was watching Lucas Nintendo direct and notices that his down grab gets them stuck into the ground.that could turn into a combo
With a up smash

This is actually a common misconception - down-throw doesn't plant them into the ground like a pitfall, that's purely aesthetic. (probably to reference PK Ground) Notice how Megaman goes into hitstun after emerging from the ground rather than having the jumping animation.

However, I think this is a good thing since the throw will likely retain its KO power from Brawl and/or have consistent combo potential. Also, predicting an airdodge after a down-throw and punishing with an Up-Smash would definitely be a possibility.

edit: you beat me to it.

 

[ShadowKing]

That was debunked long ago. The dirt is just a fancy effect for his down throw, and the opponent doesn't get stuck in the ground.

I know but still it can be comboed

 

[ShadowKing]

Anyways I was practiceing on brawl and found a good start combo pk fire to dash attack to air attack then side smash side smash spike (if hits and for side smash in the air)

 

[skeletonboxers]

Oh definitely. I've recently been practicing Lucas in Brawl and I've noticed that while his low cooldown moveset flows together nicely followup-wise, Brawl's hitstun canceling allows for the opponent to be just shy of getting hit and escape for free by airdodging into the ground. Stuff like autocanceled Nair > Fair, sourspot Fair > Uair/Fair, and fastfall Uair > Fair seem to link so well, but alas, Brawl's airdodges are stupidly good.

Even if there is still some lack of hitstun on his moves in Smash 4, the new airdodge landing lag mechanic will make our opponents think twice before leaving themselves open to a deadly PK Love Up-Smash..

Oh, and I can also gather that his grab will definitely be incredibly powerful. In Brawl, he had one of the fastest pummels in the game.. and one of the strongest, doing 3% per headbutt. Now imagine a guaranteed aerial off of a down-throw with Smash 4's increased hitstun. 3 pummels (9%) > down-throw (7%) > Uair (13%) is a clean 29% combo.

Lucas definitely had the strongest pummels. If you pummel the opponent in a certain rhythm (every second i believe) it would do an insane 9% per pummel. I really hope his rhythm pummel comes back because the sound battle mechanic was a nice touch in Mother 3 they referenced.

 

[skeletonboxers]

I really think by seeing how they gave Ness a bunch of attention, Lucas will be somewhere up there too.

Theres no edgehogging now and longer tether
Lucas has a bunch of recover options (tether, PKT) compared to Ness
(I also feel that his PKT2 can travel through counters like Marth/Lucina? but we'll have to see)
No chaingrabbing so he can't be infinite'd
His rhythm pummel is something to fear imo (9% per pummel, 3% if not done rhythmatically)

 

[Masque]

Lucas definitely had the strongest pummels. If you pummel the opponent in a certain rhythm (every second i believe) it would do an insane 9% per pummel. I really hope his rhythm pummel comes back because the sound battle mechanic was a nice touch in Mother 3 they referenced.

Oh my god HOW DID I NOT KNOW THAT!? So awesome!

 

[skeletonboxers]

Oh my god HOW DID I NOT KNOW THAT!? So awesome!

To be honest, I just found this out myself last week by just reading around about Lucas 3 in the morning... but nonetheless it's such a nice detail. Thank you Sakurai.

(I tried to do it in Brawl but it's tough, I don't know exactly how to do it aha)

Edit: i may be mistaken because it may be 9% per second, which compared to other pummels is still a lot, but i dont think the rhythm does 9 per pummel.

 

[Lord Retardus]

I feel like the Rhythm Pummel would be vastly improved (aesthetically, that is - it'd still function identically behind the scenes) if there was an actual 'combo' graphic above his head when he did it as part of the animation, similar to how Donkey Kong's final smash got redone in Smash 4.

 

[ShadowKing]

I feel like the Rhythm Pummel would be vastly improved (aesthetically, that is - it'd still function identically behind the scenes) if there was an actual 'combo' graphic above his head when he did it as part of the animation, similar to how Donkey Kong's final smash got redone in Smash 4.

Ya it might be different from ness or exactly the same

 

[skeletonboxers]

I really think by seeing how they gave Ness a bunch of attention, Lucas will be somewhere up there too.

Theres no edgehogging now and longer tether
Lucas has a bunch of recover options (tether, PKT) compared to Ness
(I also feel that his PKT2 can travel through counters like Marth/Lucina? but we'll have to see)
No chaingrabbing so he can't be infinite'd
His rhythm pummel is something to fear imo (9% per pummel, 3% if not done rhythmatically)

I should add general move niches besides mechanics he'll benefit from.

His FAir would be a great way to get a stage spike. Especially with the way you lose invincibility after second ledge grab, so Lucas can benefit from the new ledge mechanics that way.

Lucas's NAir also seems to have combo potential. I'm thinking a NAir to NAir to possibly a third NAir is plausible like Ness's FAir.

Now if Magnet techs are back (reallyyyyy crossing my fingers for these techs) Lucas will easily be a great character.