Is it just me, or was 3.02 more fun?

[Mage.]

No, it's actually GENIUS design.

It's just that 99% of fighting game developers can't achieve this because it's impossible to play the game at TAS level of precision along with completely knowledge of what they've designed.

Project M doesn't have this limitation because they're building off of Melee.

You remind me of a friend of mine who has very radical ideas about topics but lacks any real meat to back them and is generally blindsided by his idea to the point where he never considers the reality of the situation. Also you just contradicted yourself but whatever.

At this point this thread has basically derailed into a one man army **** posting about other games. If you want to argue your position, then explain with support and examples (SEX as my English teacher called it lol) why you think so. That's what discussions are about. Not circlejerking to:

"Muh Maylay"

 

[Narpas_sword]

(SEX as my English teacher called it lol) "

Pretty sure that was taught by all English teachers, as it stuck to our pre-pubescent minds.
Statement, Explanation, eXamples.

Forced acronym club.

Should have called it 'SEE"

like, "SEE? this is why I'm right!"

But no one would have remembered it.
Then we might have passed our English exams, instead of staring at the girl in front of us, and thinking 'SEX" for 2 hours.


But otherwise, i agree.

Support your statements with explanations and concrete examples if you want to be taken seriously in a discussion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Having your only design wise to defeat you is the initial player to make a mistake is bad game design because it forces the other player to need to only look for that opening, there is no counterplay for them.

Their only choice is to try and either force it, not as likely as you think in Melee or other games, or to wait it out.

What does a player doing this have against this? Use the same tools, that just homogeniously makes the tools of the characters all the same with no uniqueness to what characters can do.

The difference between this and street fighter at a high level play i that there are other options you can do, yes they have safe approaches or options but it's not strictly the same character.

This Evo for both smash games had a large variety for characters, but I do not think Fox in melee is well designed, nor do I think Sheik in Smash 4 should be immune from nerfs from patches.

3.02 took the wrong idea with making spacies the baseline and made the balance go to trash for anyone who wasn't specifically made to fight the spacies, and even then people did not like it if the cast was like this.

What does that tell you?

 

[Dandy_here]

As I said before if every character is good, and not great, then we could possibly have a better more balanced game

 

[Mage.]

Except every character is good. There is no one bad character. Yes, some characters need some more work like Bowser or D3 but they still aren't melee Kirby bad. Even characters that are considered weak this patch are still strong. There's a link main at my local who destroys with him yet many consider link worse than other characters. All this game really needs now is some love taps/hugs to the weaker characters and then we will have a very balanced game.

Tiers won't go away mind you, because some characters will always be better than others but the lines will be blurred enough that you can't identify very well who is in what tier.

Then my body is ready for Lyn.

 

[Opelousai]

I like to think that 3.02 had a similar style of balancing as Guilty Gear does. Make all the characters very unique and very strong and also have options against most of the cast. It no longer feels that way, it feels more like traditional smash where alot of the characters have very similar options, or at least if you play 1 or 2 characters really well, you can play most of the cast decently. The problem with traditional smash is that the unique characters are typically the best, and if everyone is not as unique as another then it becomes not so balanced

 

[Deleted member]

Except every character is good.
Then my body is ready for Lyn.

No they aren't, and no it isn't.

 

[FreeGamer]

...I miss 3.02 Zelda.

 

[Sunshine Jesse]

I liked 3.02 because I could do crazy-ass things without putting much real skill into it. It gave me a really convincing illusion of progress, so I enjoyed myself when playing it.

Now that I need to put in more work, it's not as enjoyable, because the process of getting better isn't all too fun (especially against CPUs...) I don't think this was good game design, and think 3.6 is better in most every way, but 3.02 was more enjoyable at the time because it catered better to me being bad.

This is neither sarcasm nor satire. I'm just admitting something I think a lot of people don't want to.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I liked 3.02 because I could do crazy-*** things without putting much real skill into it. It gave me a really convincing illusion of progress, so I enjoyed myself when playing it.

Now that I need to put in more work, it's not as enjoyable, because the process of getting better isn't all too fun (especially against CPUs...) I don't think this was good game design, and think 3.6 is better in most every way, but 3.02 was more enjoyable at the time because it catered better to me being bad.

This is neither sarcasm nor satire. I'm just admitting something I think a lot of people don't want to.

I'm with you completely.

3.02 had the instant gratification feel.
You felt good without putting in a lot of effort.

 

[NTG]

I'm ****ing dying here, I just like lurking this topic because of stupid people saying stupid ****, but man that "Melee has a higher skill cap than traditional fighters" has me laughing my lungs off and receiving cancer simultaneously.

This is why I hate the Smash, and the FGC by extension because every game's fanbase does the same ****, they all have pretentious circle jerks about how their game is the best in "teh depth" and "mah hype".

Let me be blunt, you've likely never even played a normal fighter and made your opinion based on more pretentious Melee circle jerks. Like holy ****, I have no idea how you can make crazy claims like that, Melee's deep as hell but it's not the deepest fighter of all time. Games like KoF XIII and Guilty Gear Xrd (Well, all GG's actually) eclipse Smash in terms of technical depth and refined punishes. Both have meter management, which does change what combos are available and what resources you should at a given time, much like Smashes "improv combos". Hell, many fighters have you spend meter to make moves safe to improve pressure strings, which makes players put far more thought into it then Smash's shield pressure. I'm only scratching the surface honestly, and yeah, Melee in some ways does have deeper mechanics (dash dancing is sweet) but you guys are just as annoying as the FGC who demeans Smash. Both are ignorant and pretentious.

So please, quit talking about other games like you know jack ****, Smash is fun and I love it but god damn we're plebs to some other communities and the time they put in their own game. It sounds like you just watched some Marvel after Melee at EVO as was like "Well, this is stupid, good thing Melee doesn't have any stupidly designed characters like Zero! Because my game has Fox and Fox's design is IDENTICAL to Zero, but it's in Melee so it's better."

Smashes' current success has more to do with the fact any idiot can play it, even Melee and PM, at a competitive level quickly while the curve for normal fighters screams terrifying.

Play some other fighter for a year, please tell me all the details of how you get rocked afterward.

And I'm serious about Zero and Fox. The super glass canon with so many tools that the glass is not nearly well compensated enough for all their rushdown and spacing tools? God damn, they're both ridiculous.

Sorry to hear about the cancer man. Just shoot me a PM if you need to talk.

 

[Wyill]

Honestly I just want a few things from PM:
-Not Nerfing all of the melee characters. To be honest most people come to pm for the "melee" aspect and nerfing the melee characters is NOT helping.
-Easy practice mechanics. Take a note from the 20XX pack and do some of the same things. Im talking about cpus NOT attacking you and just being harmless (for the most part) but, teching in random directions and DI-ing.
-Looking like melee. Many people (including myself) prefer the look of melee over brawl. project m looks more like brawl than melee (The "321 go" opening and the "game" ending)
But I do love project m, I just want it to be at its greatest potential.

 

[Kurri ★]

Honestly I just want a few things from PM:
-Not Nerfing all of the melee characters. To be honest most people come to pm for the "melee" aspect and nerfing the melee characters is NOT helping.

If they Melee characters need to be balanced, they're going to be balanced. No "But Melee..." We don't need another game where spacies destroy everyone and everything. If you want to play Melee characters that do Melee things, just play Melee.

-Easy practice mechanics. Take a note from the 20XX pack and do some of the same things. Im talking about cpus NOT attacking you and just being harmless (for the most part) but, teching in random directions and DI-ing.

Isn't that just training mode?

-Looking like melee. Many people (including myself) prefer the look of melee over brawl. project m looks more like brawl than melee (The "321 go" opening and the "game" ending)

Well that's because it is Brawl... Besides, why should it look like Melee? If it's going to differentiate itself from Brawl it should be it's own thing rather than copy Melee.

But I do love project m, I just want it to be at its greatest potential.

We do too, that's why we want the game to be balanced as best it can without catering to broken/bad ideals.

 

[Wyill]

If they Melee characters need to be balanced, they're going to be balanced. No "But Melee..." We don't need another game where spacies destroy everyone and everything. If you want to play Melee characters that do Melee things, just play Melee.

Isn't that just training mode?

Well that's because it is Brawl... Besides, why should it look like Melee? If it's going to differentiate itself from Brawl it should be it's own thing rather than copy Melee.

We do too, that's why we want the game to be balanced as best it can without catering to broken/bad ideals.

Well, I dont mean "BE MORE MELEE YEAAAH" I just want less brawl. Spacies should get nerfed (which they did) and I guess what I really want is just something new, WITH wavedashing, l canceling, etc. And I dont know id the 20XX thing is in just training. But the fact is, cpus dont di, which they should, AT LEAST in training.

 

[Kurri ★]

Well, I dont mean "BE MORE MELEE YEAAAH" I just want less brawl.

Well in that case your wish is being granted. New announcer, new theme, new menu look, etc. This is something that's going to be expanded on over time, so there's nothing to worry about.

Spacies should get nerfed (which they did)

And for all we know they may still need balance changes, every character may.

and I guess what I really want is just something new, WITH wavedashing, l canceling, etc.

Not going to touch on l-cancel cause there's already a heated thread on that, but what would you change about Wavedashing? Making the input less jank would be helpful, but aside from that I don't think there's much.

And I dont know id the 20XX thing is in just training. But the fact is, cpus dont di, which they should, AT LEAST in training.

There is a debug mode which allows you to see hitboxes and such, but aside from that I don't believe the features of 20XX are in PM. They do seem useful.

 

[Wyill]

Well in that case your wish is being granted. New announcer, new theme, new menu look, etc. This is something that's going to be expanded on over time, so there's nothing to worry about.

And for all we know they may still need balance changes, every character may.

Not going to touch on l-cancel cause there's already a heated thread on that, but what would you change about Wavedashing? Making the input less jank would be helpful, but aside from that I don't think there's much.

There is a debug mode which allows you to see hitboxes and such, but aside from that I don't believe the features of 20XX are in PM. They do seem useful.

What I would change about wavedashing? hmm honestly I take pride in using many many inputs in a short period of time (why i main fox) but I would really like to see a less jank version of wavedash just as you mentioned.