Is Ganondorf really that bad?

[jellis186]

^Truth

Without L-cancel, we cant use the aerials like we did in melee. It looks like the developers noticed this as well, and most of his ground attacks have a lot less start up and ending lag.

And B moves could be really useful now at about 4:55 ( http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdrdPYuKus ) ganon pulls off a pretty **** quick down b out of a run with little to no lag.

 

[WhiteCerberus]

I think he looks just fine. And it's true, Twilight, you can't play Brawl Ganondorf like Melee Ganondorf. You can't play Brawl like you play Melee, for that matter. They're two different games, two different Ganondorfs, and us Ganondorf users will find a way to kick some tail whether he's good or not.

And his Final Smash is going to cause ALOT of trouble on FFA...

 

[flashfox]

haha, people expect final smashes to still be in. I think we have the casual players saying that he is good, and I agree, for casual play and in matches with 2+ people, there is nothing to worry about.

Now, if we are talking about competitive play and singles, we have a lot to worry about. Less start up and ending lag on the ground is nice, but they nerfed the best ground attack Ganon had, which is the jab. The attack is now 1/2 as fast, roughly 7-8 frames in comparison to 3 frames. We have basically lost the -> b combo starter, and while we gain a nice grab in return, I am not sure if it will help us combo as well as the -> b. Then we have the ability to chaingrab, which we aren't sure we have yet. We might have lost quadruple jump, or at least a lot of the horizontal recovery of it, and down b doesn't even spike anymore in air, and basically almost can't be used on the ledge because the potential to suicide is much greater now.

 

[FenrirIII]

I was actually really, REALLY disappointed when I saw that Ganon's DownB doesn't spike from the air anymore, when watching that Ganon/Bowser video. I was expecting to see a kill, but Bowser just flew like, straight up.
I would like to see if he can still chainthrow though., maybe if he's better at it. I mean, if they gimped his speed and some of his better techniques just to improve his KO strength (you must admit that his aerials have a lot of power, even his N-Air), they have to have improved something else, right?
Right guys?

 

[Magus420]

I doubt his chainthrow still exists, and if it does it'd likely be very limited. From what I've seen it seems to send straight up or maybe even slightly away and they are also sent from the ground in front of him with further knockback than before. I doubt he'd be fast enough to catch them when they DI away. In melee the throw sent slightly behind from the ground in front so they were sent mostly ontop of him allowing him to catch them in either direction.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Ganondorf will be good for competitive play as well. Thats what i think anyways.

His jab really isn't that slow. Its just a different jab. Which is still a move that comes out very fast compared to his other moves and can still be used in a way thats very benefiting to him.

Yes i was shocked to see the combo starter gone, but honestly this ganondorf is a beast with damage as far as i know. He doesnt need big combos to do big damage, just some one two buckle his shoe hits and what not. The hits will add up over time. And man, will they add up.

This is a character that we're going to have to play smart with.

Even though his down Bs spike is gone, we still have the reliable stomp to the face spike. Which is an awesome spike. Plus who knows, maybe his reverse up air still spikes. Ganondorf may have 2 spikes which is more than enough to add to his game.
Not to mention the speculation of the forward B knocking you downwards which could equal another spikemove in his arsenal. And his chaingrabbing could possibly be very nice.

Speaking of his stomp theres speculation going on about having relativly no lag after you hit with the stomp, which is pretty hot if it turns out to be true.

Ganons got potential. We just have to play him differently with more cunning. In all honesty i think ganons looking better and better every single day.

 

[notftomearth7]

Is he a clone?

I believe you've just answered your own question.

 

[flashfox]

His jab is slow to the point where we can't create decent spacing from it anymore. That alone drops Ganon lower.

Ganon is a power player. But we saw in Melee and we will see in Brawl that power won't mean anything if you are slow and can't get a hit in. That is the biggest issue with Brawl. Even his side-b, which does good damage and is a decent escape move, doesn't lead to a damage combo, which is something that Ganon needs.

We see that his up-b throws people away less and does less damage, and all we get in return is a punch property that at worse gives us even more lag and has horrible landing lag, and at best, does some extra damage and gives us a safer recovery.

With the idea of l-cancelling now coming based on attack speed and when the attack comes out, perhaps there is a chance. The stomp could be better, it could... not be, we'll see.

 

[Magus420]

I know he can shorthop and get an autocancel on the b-air still, though I don't know if it cancels as fast as it did in melee where SHFF AC b-airs were generally the aerial of choice against the faster characters. I can see this becoming a staple for his new aerial game, especially if he's still able to fastfall it off a SH and get the cancel. Being able to do the new backwards facing jump would also allow you to approach with this if needed. The slower jab hurts though since they'll have an easier time getting in if they can avoid it.

He could also do this with the u-air before which was also great, but it doesn't seem to cancel as fast anymore since I've seen someone SH it as they left the ground without even FFing and got the lag on it.

I'm still hoping you can jumpcancel other B moves out of shield like you can with the other smashes now. A dash low lag grab OoS would be amazing for him. It'd be a SICK tech against a grounded opponent since you could just run up and shield where they lay to shieldgrab a getup attack or standup, and over-b OoS if they roll to a side.

 

[Kujirudo]

But seriously, the funny thing of all those people who're saying 'Wow, [character] is crap' haven't even played the game yet and made that conclusion out of the movies they saw. How about those Ganondorf players in those movies just suck because they've never played with Ganondorf? Everybody has to learn how to control the characters in this totally different Smash game, time will tell how to handle which character. For now, I stick with my love for Ganondorf because of his bad-*** voice.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

See? Ganondorf just gets better and better. Those are some awesome points magus, i didn't even know he could cancel his B-air, thats fantastic news.

Theres not really that big of a deal on his jab imo,{well there sorta is but meh D:* they can only get in if they can avoid it. So its the players fault for not using it effectivly or at the right time. I for one will be trying very hard to learn to include jabs where need be since it looks like its going to take lots of practice.. thats definatly a move i won't just be flailing around with, though. i've got to be cautious with the jab and learn the timing in his match ups/right situations to use them etc. Its not the old jab yeah, but we've got to learn to make due. It feels like a move you just want your opponent to run into. Like most of gannondorfs moves.

If he can cancel his bair wouldn't it be more defensive to jump backwards in a shorthop and at them with the bair to give them second thoughts about charging, than the jab itself? * if used in smart moderation of course*

With the stomp givin the possibility of canceling along with this bair canceling magus mentioned, things keep looking up for ganon.

 

[WhiteCerberus]

I like the way Twilight thinks...

But! We really can't pass judgement until we play as Ganondorf first-hand. For all we know, one of us could deem Ganondorf 'unusable', whilst another one of us destroys every single match he gets in to. Who knows? We'll have to wait and see. I'll still be optimistic, though.

I'd like to see more of the Warlock Punch, personally. I watched a video of it many times, and call me crazy, but it looks like it comes out as fast as Falcon's "Falcon Punch" did in Melee.

 

[jellis186]

One thing about his jab that I haven't seen mentioned, is that compared to melee, he can spam it a bit more. It comes out faster after the first once, almost like falcon's punch combo but not anything like it. (its hard to explain and I can't remember the video I saw it it, I really want to say it was in the toon link vid). Could be used as a good way to make a little space or punish someone who tries to shield grab after the first punch...

 

[flashfox]

Magus basically mentions the best things that can happen to Ganon, basically JBT b-air or a SH AC b-air, which will definately become the staple of his air game, as well as AC stomp, and hopefully what we see as a -> b or -smash out of shield, but then again, if everyone can do that, well then, crap.


Edit: good news, u-air still spikes and jbt/rar u-air is now as devastating as it was before.

 

[triforceswordmaster]

yeah, i don't think its possible to make accurate predictions of ganon yet based on vids of people who just got brawl controlling him. i remember how i thought he was crap in melee because of how easily i killed him in the event match to unlock him. however, after playing as him for awhile i grew to appreciate his shear might and compensate for his slowness with strategy. he can still be just as good in brawl as he was in melee (probably better based on his partial uniqueness).

 

[Warlock*G]

That's the spirit! Don't base your judgement on videos, people! And better yet, there are still tons of new techniques to find, techs that can turn things around!

(eg: finding those friggin super armor frames)

 

[paralasalud]

is it bothering anyone else that ganon is hanging on the edge with 2 hands? lol. makes him look weak. i mean like, only ness does that. (i'm being sarcastic of course, but it's still bugging me.)

 

[Blackadder]

is it bothering anyone else that ganon is hanging on the edge with 2 hands? lol. makes him look weak. i mean like, only ness does that. (i'm being sarcastic of course, but it's still bugging me.)

He doesn't wannna look TOO tough and scare off all competition.
We all know he could hang there with just his finger.

Also, Twilight knows where it's at! I award you an interentz.

 

[orintemple]

Ganon was fighting Falco in that vid and Falco looks like an absolute beast so he didn't do all that bad really. Also, Ganon seems to have some good things going with that new over B, different but good. Change is not always bad, people! It will take time to get used to but who knows what things we will find for Ganon to do.

 

[flashfox]

I understand that change is good, but we so many negative changes for ganon so far. It makes playing him so much more difficult, and its painful to watch when everyone else gets better around you and ganon seemingly gets worse because of a nerf in speed, without ike like power to reward it.

I'm still playing Ganondorf, but I am very unhappy with this changes, since besides his decent side-b (and lets face it, bowser got one amazing b move in up b and it still couldn't save him), we see him get slower and not much more powerfuller as a result. It certainly does make everything seem worse, logically.

 

[WastingPenguins]

It'd be a SICK tech against a grounded opponent since you could just run up and shield where they lay to shieldgrab a getup attack or standup, and over-b OoS if they roll to a side.

Haha, oh man. This is actually a pretty awesome thought. I'm not sure if Ganon sucks yet but I can't wait to try some of this **** out. Over B has gotta be one of the best ground moves in Smash history.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Posted in the wrong place.

 

[dreamastermind]

Does Ganondorf's down b help him recover as well as in melee? From the Bowser vs. Ganondorf video I saw, using his down B killed him twice and it seemed to go down further than in melee.

 

[triforceswordmaster]

im probably seeing things, but the spin added to his up b seems to have given it farther reach, making recovery slightly easier with it, possibly to compensate for the alledged loss of down b as a recovery option. plus, the vids i saw where people tried to recover with down b had them using it when they were practically below the stage already. maybe all that is required is better timing to make it work.

 

[e105beta]

With the proper combination of Up-B and Down-B, Ganondorf can do some beastly off stage combos.

BTW, his Forward-B is definitely good for recovering against edge guarders. I also like the Ganon-kazi element it has.

 

[The True Face of Stupid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCQWwvZYE1c&NR=1

Oh yes, Ganon DEFINITLEY sucks, that's why he was able to beat a human Jigglypuff player as a CPU on a stage where he's at a grave disadvantage and Jigglypuff has a wonderful advantage.

 

[TidalSpiral]

I'd like to see more of the Warlock Punch, personally. I watched a video of it many times, and call me crazy, but it looks like it comes out as fast as Falcon's "Falcon Punch" did in Melee.

I was thinking the same thing, he appears to throw it out rather quickly with much more horizontal effect. In the video I saw, it was against Ice Climbers and he did the move first thing. They were blown a good distance off the side of Final Destination making it necessary to Up B, so against even lighter characters it would be devastating. Also heard someone say that he gains an unflinch as he's using it... if that's true, even speed characters will have to watch what they do very carefully.

Still want a no clone Ganon next time, but these changes suffice for now.

 

[~Shin~]

People, if you think Ganondorf sucks, then get the hell away from the character.

People were saying Ganondorf sucked in Melee, know what happened then? A few bright individuals started focusing and taking G-dorf to heights unbelieved by lukewarm Ganon players. The game isn't out for us in the United States, this speculation of good and bad can be 'without flames'.

If he turns out to suck it doesn't matter to me. I'll do what I did in Melee and turn him into a raging powerhouse to be reckoned with at every tourny I go to. It takes dedication to be a good player.

~Shin_Ganondorf~

 

[e105beta]

Ganondorf is going to rock. I'm going to main him.

 

[Warlock*G]

People, if you think Ganondorf sucks, then get the hell away from the character.

People were saying Ganondorf sucked in Melee, know what happened then? A few bright individuals started focusing and taking G-dorf to heights unbelieved by lukewarm Ganon players. The game isn't out for us in the United States, this speculation of good and bad can be 'without flames'.

If he turns out to suck it doesn't matter to me. I'll do what I did in Melee and turn him into a raging powerhouse to be reckoned with at every tourny I go to. It takes dedication to be a good player.

~Shin_Ganondorf~

I know what you mean Shin. I'm gonna main Wario this time around since I've been hoping for him since the first Smash Bros, but I still like ol' G-Dorf. I mean, look at my name, who do you think I mained?

 

[e105beta]

Personally, the only character in now that I have been waiting for since SSB is Wolf. But this is G-Dorf boards...

 

[WastingPenguins]

People, if you think Ganondorf sucks, then get the hell away from the character.

Haha, why? My secondaries in Melee were G&W and Bowser. I fully recognized that they sucked, but I loved them and played them anyway.

It's okay to do the same with Ganon if he does happen to suck this time, isn't it?

 

[deebz435]

Haha, why? My secondaries in Melee were G&W and Bowser. I fully recognized that they sucked, but I loved them and played them anyway.

It's okay to do the same with Ganon if he does happen to suck this time, isn't it?

It's fine to play as him if he sucks. I plan on maining him regardless of that because I love Ganondorf as a character.