Is fox really "nerfed"?

[chaos_Leader]

I've been comparing video footage from the DOJO's 12/21/07 update (Subspace Emissary Movie) with E-for-All footage and I've made a conjecture. Either I'm crazy or Fox has picked up his fast-falling status back up between E-For-All and now. Evidence: At roughly 2/3 into the film clip there is a very short instant showing Fox and Diddy Kong jumping over a chasm, Fox is plummeting like a brick after his first jump and performs a double-jump over the chasm.

Compare for yourself:

DOJO Movie 12/21/07

Meta Knight vs. Fox @ E-For-All

I further compared these two film clips to SSBM Fox footage and my findings appear to support my claims. Fox is indeed a slower faller at E-For-All (duh), when I compared the 12/21/07 SSE footage to SSBM Fox footage, the falling speed appears pretty close, at least when the Melee Fox isn't performing the FastFalling technique.

I apologize in advance if it turns out I am in error.

 

[Nicktendo]

Looks like the same speed at e 4 all to me

 

[sfox8]

fox isnt getting redesigned, sakurai knows tiers are rediculous and whoever sat there and came up with the idea of "tiers" has got to get the **** out of the house and go outside.. first off fox is designed for speed not power, thats how he always was meant.. alot of you people are just pissy cause you are used to taking advantages of his glitches to win. sakurai isnt an idiot and realizes alot of people would hate to play against a bunch of glitched little ***gats like yourselves over wifi. So no fox isnt really nerfed, he is just the way he is meant to be. same as peach... peach was never supposed to be that strong either and she was nerfed for brawl too.. And if for some reason ******* reason sheik gets in (even though she wasnt in tp) u can bet your *******es she is going to be nerfed to for the same reason, sheik was not designed to be a strong character like that. ***gats

Although.... harshly said... I agree to some point.

All the cussing wasn't necessary but I think we can all agree that Fox's nerf WAS needed. A lot. I think this will finally weed out the people who main Fox because they love him and those who main him because he's top tier.

As I said previously though, we won't know for sure until we get out hands on the game. But I can't help but wonder who this game's broken character is going to be (I'm sure it's not any of my mains). It'd be nice if there wasn't a broken character, but let's be realistic here...

 

[Igneous42]

He was nerfed in the fact that the entire game is more balanced. Even on a casual level characters like Fox, Falco and Sheik were rather overpowered. In Tournies because of things like advanced techs they were even more so. In my experience at EforAll everyone felt better balanced. I played every char there. Fox is nerfed, so he's more level with everyone else. But he's by no means bad. The only chars that felt better or worse were Meta Knight and Ike. Meta Knight was easy for anyone to pick up and do good with however once the people who were there multiple days got the hang of things he didn't seem overpowered., Ike was so slow he had troubles in one on one (though he was pwning free for all. And according to Jump Fest impressions he's been fixed.

I really hope the game remains balanced, the game should be played where any character can be really good.

 

[Dynamism]

Yoshi may be top tier.

DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!

Even if he wasn't changed, the entire environment is different.

And that's why I'm happy they removed WDing. The new momentum continued air dodge will be much more beneficial in the Brawl format than WDing would've been in this game. Same goes for the air dodge mechanics in melee, the WD was vital to that game because of the way it is formatted.

This whole nerfed thing makes me angry. Fox and Peach were my biggest mains in Melee. I really hope they perform the same if not better...

Well that's kind of biased!

Just because Fox's mechanics are different doesn't mean he isn't a good character. Quit viewing the game from Melee's perspective, this is a new game.

On top of that, I got the furthest with Fox at E For All. Fox has great potential.

THANK YOU THANK YOU!! I was just about to say the exact same thing until I read this post. Except I would have said it this way...
- If you saw Brawl before any other smash game, then you wouldn't be saying he looks nerfed.
Example: Diddy shows up! We all take a look at him and see what he can and can't do.
1. His UpB is far but can only be used once
2. his SideB is a great spike
3. his fair is easily chained
4. his throws have KO ability
5. he lacks in physical range with attacks
6. he has various decent projectiles.
Example: Fox shows up! We all take a look at him and see what he can and can't do.
1. His UpB is extreemly far and controled
2. his SideB his a quick recovery
3. his DownB is a great spike
4. his Uair can be chained easily
5. he's fast and has good attack speed
6. He's very light.

And instead we're going... Fox can't WShine, fox can't SHLaser, Fox can't kill a Bowser at 80% with his Upsmash!
Why don't we have arguments about... Diddy can't SHPeanut, Diddy can't WMolest, Diddy can't kill Bowser at 80%!

Like really, the best way to go into Brawl is in the mindstate of a n00b that knows what to look for, not a pro that expects what to find.
Now either the masses of the smash competitive community and anyone beyond that get wiser about the new aspects of a game that really is NOTHING like anything we've seen before, or the select few out there with a mind that's actually on the right page are going to take over the smash community and invent the gameplay before you can say "let's all be the chameleons!" Then I guess the followings and the truth about Foxes new "tier rank" will already be decided and anyone who just wants to win can flood to him and the next Sheik.
I'm hoping that doesn't happen and I beleive it won't. (Because I have faith in the people making the game)

The only thing I'm slightly dissapointed about is his "Fast Fall" ability is gone. Still guys, we have yet to spend hours upon hours upon more hours of really practicing all of Fox's new tricks of the trade. All we have to do is explore McCloud from scratch. Yeah I know, it's a headache to do so, but I surely don't mind.

That's the spirit!
But the actual "fast fall" ability is still in the game (it's also the new lag-cancel so chances are we'll see more of it) but it's probably a good thing that Fox isn't an easily comboed "fast faller" although he is when compared to the rest of the roster

we can't judge fox based on a few days of gameplay. just because he is different doesn't mean he is bad.

a'thank'yow

I think we can all agree that Fox's nerf WAS needed. A lot. I think this will finally weed out the people who main Fox because they love him and those who main him because he's top tier.

Agreed 100%

I can't help but wonder who this game's broken character is going to be (I'm sure it's not any of my mains). It'd be nice if there wasn't a broken character, but let's be realistic here...

That would be great and is very possible, (they actually have a team that gets good with them and plays to test it, unlike when they made melee) but let's hope it's Captain Falcon...just for the hell of it

He was nerfed in the fact that the entire game is more balanced. Even on a casual level characters like Fox, Falco and Sheik were rather overpowered. In Tournies because of things like advanced techs they were even more so. In my experience at EforAll everyone felt better balanced. I played every char there. Fox is nerfed, so he's more level with everyone else. But he's by no means bad. The only chars that felt better or worse were Meta Knight and Ike. Meta Knight was easy for anyone to pick up and do good with however once the people who were there multiple days got the hang of things he didn't seem overpowered., Ike was so slow he had troubles in one on one (though he was pwning free for all. And according to Jump Fest impressions he's been fixed.

I really hope the game remains balanced, the game should be played where any character can be really good.

You can actually say that again...next time a conversation like this arises again

Edit: And BTW, all things set aside from tier talk and tactical shinanigans...
Yoshi actually looks like a character that may "overrun" everyone when the game in in our hands. So yeah, I'm being serious when I say Yoshi FTW! Cause Yoshi (I have come to this conclusion by actually seeing this game from all sides [so to speak]) will win a LOT! And especially against smaller ranged characters like Diddy, Pikachu and this hear group of Fox!

 

[supa*]

Smash developers are not ignorant. They know very well that Fox in the last game turned out horribly superior to other characters in the long run. I assume most people think he's nerfed because, well, he is. Though people were trying to play Brawl Fox as if he were from Melee, which sadly cannot be effective anymore.

Yes, Fox have become weaker in the sence that you can no longer use those many advanced techniques the Melee Fox had. This isn't to say he'll be nerfed in the longrun though. Maybe somebody will find a way, a new way to be brilliant with him, but until then...

W00t MARIO!

 

[Johnknight1]

Fox was cheap, he moved really fast and hit really hard.. he could clearly be used by almost anyone and do severe damage especially on characters that were slow or/and light.

Characters like that need to be nerfed, or the game becomes well.. unbalanced.

Exactly. But nerfed to where still useable (Captain Falcon), not nerfed to the point of being useless (Kirby, Ness).

Yeah, Fox was clearly nerfed. He's floatier, and has less knockback, his uair got hit with a nerftruck, and his shine was beat with a nerfstick. It's obvious from videos, AND Gimpy's thread.
:'[ Fox definitely shouldn't "shine" (aha, see what I did therr?) in two games - It's someone else's turn to rule in Brawl, and I'm pretty sure Sakurai knows that.



Fox was fast, "cheap" and hit really hard, but he could NOT be used to take some medicore smasher to the top. Fox actually required/s a lot of skill to use him in his broken, top-tier form. Unlike Falco. /wrists.

He required skill (Falco is MUCH EASIER TO LEARN; after maining Fox, I soared with Falco [lol...soared...with a bird! ]), and a lot of it. But he was broken EVEN at casual play. He's totally broken, and anyone could see it. If Sakurai didn't nerf Fox, he'd be called a idiot, because NOT NERFING FOX would be STUPID! And that is coming from a Melee Fox main, btw. I know how bad the tiers can effect you, considering I use a bottom tier character (Ness), and two low tier characters (Link and Roy). It's ridiculous thinking you could pit two very talented equal opponents who are using Roy and Fox (in which they both main them), and the Roy-user would win. Straight up ridiculous.

Wow, you're dumb.

Just because Fox's mechanics are different doesn't mean he isn't a good character. Quit viewing the game from Melee's perspective, this is a new game.

On top of that, I got the furthest with Fox at E For All. Fox has great potential.

All I can say EPF is THANK YOU for not being a idiot, ignorant, stuck on Melee like everything in Melee is the same in Brawl (or totally ruined), and for informing us. Seriously, the tiers are far better in Brawl from what people who played the two demos could tell. Even Ike was good-though he's like Jigglypuff on crack in 4 person battles. He'll be the team play top tier-and make Jigglypuff look like a sap.

A couple of small things about him have been made worse, while a couple of small things have been made better, his fsmash and fair I believe. Even if he isn't top-tier without shine cancelling, it's still likely that he's high-tier.

But tier discussion for Brawl is ridiculous, we only had four days with the demo. Till M2K goes through the whole game and finds every wierd little thing*coughlikehedidlasttimecough*, we know nothing about the tiers.

Let us all face one fact: WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BRAWL! All we know is a bunch of people played a Brawl demo (basically a BETA of the real game) twice, stuff told by us on a site, commercials, and what Nintendo tells us. Until we grasp our controllers on Febuary 10th, 2008, or see and hear what Japanese smashers think, we will continue to know NOTHING! All we know is a bit about what items, assist trophies, Pokéball Pokémon, NPCs, stages, modes, extras, music tracks, final smashes, stickers, bosses, options, and playable characters are in Brawl. Other then that, we know zero other then how the game felt at a unfinished Demo/BETA.

Fox will probably be useable. I know I'm going to try every character, and Brawl could possibly show who are the "Real" hardcore Fox mains. Just like Melee did to the poor hardcore Kirby and Ness mains from smash 64. As Fox users, we are all but guarenteed to have it better off, but don't just NOT use Fox because he isn't top/god tier. Tires Don Exits people. Hell, that's coming from soneone who uses two top tier, one high tier, two low tier, and one bottom tier character in Melee. And a top tier, mid tier, and low tier character in smash 64. Use whoever the hell you feel like using because you like playing as them, or you like their style/moveset. Because early tiers will be wrong-Ice Climbers were like low/bottom tiers originally with Melee (now they are high tier), and Zelda was a high/top tier (now she's a bottom tier character). Just go with the flow people, and enjoy the game.

 

[Norm]

I dont think thats been nerfed so much as he's been balanced it seems that they're trying to balance the characters more in Brawl. In Melee fox was cream of the crop some characters didn't stand a chance against him, he was fast, fell fast, and rediculusly strong in some of his moves. I dont see this as nerfing him but more so making him more balanced so that all of the different choices are equal.

 

[haddos]

Hes more balanced than anything else maybe even better

 

[Dynamism]

EPF - "Fox has great potential."

Yeah, you could say that about every character too, and that's what makes Brawl anticipation so yummy!

JK1 - "Big post that was basically my post from the previous page."
um...QFT!

And Fox looks good. In that he actually looks cool (moves and clothes) and he looks very tricky to play against. I'm looking forward to fighting someone just as difficult as the melee Fox, with the same motives, but not being overwhelmed inevitably

 

[mario brawler]

Although.... harshly said... I agree to some point.

All the cussing wasn't necessary but I think we can all agree that Fox's nerf WAS needed. A lot. I think this will finally weed out the people who main Fox because they love him and those who main him because he's top tier.

your words are godworthy I could'nt agree more I absolutlly hate it when people stray frim low tier characters and automaticly go to top tier jezz a 7 yr old playing marth with his thumb glued to the c-stick could noobishly kill your common player,but anyway's personally I think there making brawl how melee should've been played lol wavedashing was never in the instruction manual,which is why fox plays how he play's now,that is how he is SUPPOSED to play he was never meant to drill shine...just my opinion :D

 

[5150]

your words are godworthy I could'nt agree more I absolutlly hate it when people stray frim low tier characters and automaticly go to top tier jezz a 7 yr old playing marth with his thumb is glued to the c-stick could noobishly pwn your common player,but anyway's personally I think there making brawl how melee should've been played lol wavedashing was never in the instruction manual,which is why fox plays how he play's now,that is how he is SUPPOSED to play he was never meant to drill shine...just my opinion :D

theres no such thing as "noobishly pwn".

 

[mario brawler]

theres no such thing as "noobishly pwn".

hmm your right,would noobishly kill sound better?...yea most likely

 

[drengist]

hmm your right,would noobishly kill sound better?...yea most likely

You're a donkey.

 

[xixDaShrimpxix]

when is sakurai's b-day mario brawler? i want to tell him to expect a present from me on his birthday, and when it's two months away, i'll tell him "there's still a bit more wrapping to be done. i am trying to complete it without incident." and then the next day i'll be like "oh sorry... you have to wait 4 more months. haha" then a month before i give it to him... BAM! "sorry man, just a little bit longer. i deeply apologize to anyone who's been waiting so long for this birthday preasent."

 

[mario brawler]

You're a donkey.

*sarcasm starts*wow how very mature and...not random*sarcasm ends*...lol loser

when is sakurai's b-day mario brawler? i want to tell him to expect a present from me on his birthday, and when it's two months away, i'll tell him "there's still a bit more wrapping to be done. i am trying to complete it without incident." and then the next day i'll be like "oh sorry... you have to wait 4 more months. haha" then a month before i give it to him... BAM! "sorry man, just a little bit longer. i deeply apologize to anyone who's been waiting so long for this birthday preasent."

HAHAHAHA wow that is funnny as hell...it's August 3rd...quite some time from now -.-

 

[5150]

Exactly. But nerfed to where still useable (Captain Falcon), not nerfed to the point of being useless (Kirby, Ness).

falcon is hardly usable.

He required skill (Falco is MUCH EASIER TO LEARN; after maining Fox, I soared with Falco [lol...soared...with a bird! ]), and a lot of it. But he was broken EVEN at casual play. He's totally broken, and anyone could see it. If Sakurai didn't nerf Fox, he'd be called a idiot, because NOT NERFING FOX would be STUPID! And that is coming from a Melee Fox main, btw. I know how bad the tiers can effect you, considering I use a bottom tier character (Ness), and two low tier characters (Link and Roy). It's ridiculous thinking you could pit two very talented equal opponents who are using Roy and Fox (in which they both main them), and the Roy-user would win. Straight up ridiculous.

fox required tech skill, but doesnt require much mindgames or experience at all.

All I can say EPF is THANK YOU for not being a idiot, ignorant, stuck on Melee like everything in Melee is the same in Brawl (or totally ruined), and for informing us. Seriously, the tiers are far better in Brawl from what people who played the two demos could tell. Even Ike was good-though he's like Jigglypuff on crack in 4 person battles. He'll be the team play top tier-and make Jigglypuff look like a sap.

we aren't stuck on melee we are stuck on comp play.

Let us all face one fact: WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BRAWL! All we know is a bunch of people played a Brawl demo (basically a BETA of the real game) twice, stuff told by us on a site, commercials, and what Nintendo tells us. Until we grasp our controllers on Febuary 10th, 2008, or see and hear what Japanese smashers think, we will continue to know NOTHING! All we know is a bit about what items, assist trophies, Pokéball Pokémon, NPCs, stages, modes, extras, music tracks, final smashes, stickers, bosses, options, and playable characters are in Brawl. Other then that, we know zero other then how the game felt at a unfinished Demo/BETA.

actually no we do know alot about the game. we know many important things. i hate when people say this bull****.

Fox will probably be useable. I know I'm going to try every character, and Brawl could possibly show who are the "Real" hardcore Fox mains. Just like Melee did to the poor hardcore Kirby and Ness mains from smash 64. As Fox users, we are all but guarenteed to have it better off, but don't just NOT use Fox because he isn't top/god tier. Tires Don Exits people. Hell, that's coming from soneone who uses two top tier, one high tier, two low tier, and one bottom tier character in Melee. And a top tier, mid tier, and low tier character in smash 64. Use whoever the hell you feel like using because you like playing as them, or you like their style/moveset. Because early tiers will be wrong-Ice Climbers were like low/bottom tiers originally with Melee (now they are high tier), and Zelda was a high/top tier (now she's a bottom tier character). Just go with the flow people, and enjoy the game.

wow thank you guidance counselor for smash.

 

[Nigguh-witta-attitude]

New shine combos will be found and people will go back to him once more people have a hold of the game.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I don't really think your name is that appropriate. But Im just a lowly smash child, so I can't change anything.

 

[Fodder]

Like really, the best way to go into Brawl is in the mindstate of a n00b that knows what to look for, not a pro that expects what to find.

More people need to embrace this way of thinking. If we focus too much on the things that we loved about melee, then it will be all too easy to miss the beauty of Brawl that's in front of us.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I have the game must say Fox is still top tier. Even though he's not the Melee fox, so isn't every other character. When you balance all characters, Fox still seems to be up there. He can still pull of combos, and manuever quickly. The only thing really nerfed is his shine.

 

[kainsword]

I hate how people are suddenly judging past characters just because they can't just pick them up again and completely violate innocent players online without getting used to any new mechanics.

The new mechanics in Brawl have changes lots of the finer details and while you were fine-tuned to Fox's acrobatic finesse in Melee, it WILL be a different story for the Brawl counterpart. It's a new game, so everyone just needs to slow down for the first YEAR and just play as characters you like.

There's no rush to be the first to learn how to SCG (Shield Cancel Grab, apparently, JCG's replacement.) and all the other mechanics. Incorporate them if you must, and try to get a new feel for the characters and environment.

As people said before, tons of Fox players thought Fox got nerfed when it became apparent that his blaster didn't stun, was a literal featherweight, and had weak attacks. However, that perspective changed differently once people got a feel for Melee and learned how to utilize the new grabs, attacks, and how to make impromptu combos fluidly without thought.

People say he's worse because they don't have a feel for the game. Again, it's a new game and your child violating playstyle won't be usable in Brawl. Get used to the fact that your old sense of combo-making is totally irrelevant in Brawl.

 

[DiasFlac]

Trust me when I say Fox is still a really great character. Your get out good combos with him. Not like you used to in melee but the combos he can pull off are really good and his fsmash doesn't look like it lost alot of power.

but then again I play Zelda so that could be the problem...

 

[mario brawler]

I hate how people are suddenly judging past characters just because they can't just pick them up again and completely violate innocent players online without getting used to any new mechanics.

The new mechanics in Brawl have changes lots of the finer details and while you were fine-tuned to Fox's acrobatic finesse in Melee, it WILL be a different story for the Brawl counterpart. It's a new game, so everyone just needs to slow down for the first YEAR and just play as characters you like.

There's no rush to be the first to learn how to SCG (Shield Cancel Grab, apparently, JCG's replacement.) and all the other mechanics. Incorporate them if you must, and try to get a new feel for the characters and environment.

As people said before, tons of Fox players thought Fox got nerfed when it became apparent that his blaster didn't stun, was a literal featherweight, and had weak attacks. However, that perspective changed differently once people got a feel for Melee and learned how to utilize the new grabs, attacks, and how to make impromptu combos fluidly without thought.

People say he's worse because they don't have a feel for the game. Again, it's a new game and your child violating playstyle won't be usable in Brawl. Get used to the fact that your old sense of combo-making is totally irrelevant in Brawl.

hehe sound's like you put some work in that,very true word's my main man so true if I could rate your comment it's be 5/5 ,but yea,alot of people are just judging based of video's and just because there main abused move was nerfed they think he's lost his glory,heck the shine needed to be nerfed anyway's I mean seriously like no one cares that it can reflect projectile's(it's original and primary point -.-),they just look at it like fox is cripled when they themse'ves have'nt even played the game let alone even spent enough time with the game yet to learn anything I know im still gonna use him,just because he's fox not cuz of his moveset(which look's more than good)people just need to calm down and not complain so much

 

[Psymon]

Fox can be top tier without drillshine combos and waveshines, I've been trying to break the habbit of L-cancelling and wavedashing to practice for brawl and I've gotten used to beating shieks and Marths with ease still. They've only ever been another bullet in the chamber - doesn't mean you're out of ammo without them. B-air and N-air's are good enough out of short hops, shine spiking still rocks and laser-spamming can rack up damage. Fox for top tier in brawl. Psy.

 

[JFox]

He is so light, plus easy to edgegaurd compared to most characters. But he also has an easy time killing many characters with Usmash and Dsmash. I dislike shine spiking except in very situational moments, simply because most characters can get shine and than still recover. Also the shine lacks that priority and range that made it so good.

Question: I have been able to link dair to usmash, dsmash, and shine. I was wondering if these are true combos or not. What about dair to grab? If so, what about on the shield?