Is fox really "nerfed"?

[Zantetsu2]

A lot of people around the boards have been saying fox is nerfed because his difficulty to shine cancel and no wavedash. But can we really say that? Look at it this way...

In Super Smash Bros 64 fox's shines were almost useless and the only way he really did combos were by linking his dairs, fairs, down tilts, up tilts, lasers and up smashes. Now lets look at what got nerfed from ssb64 to melee...

Dair: Wasn't as strong and couldn't really be used for much combos (Except for drill shines. We will discuss later).
Fair: The move changed and it was really really bad.
Down tilts: Same as Dair.
Up tilts: Same as Dair and Down tilt.
Lasers: Didn't have any hit stun.

Now later on in melee we got used to the game and discovered wavedashes and waveshines which brought fox to top tier.

Brawl was only out for 4 days and yet it was just a demo. Why are people assuming he is nerfed when we haven't played the full version and haven't found any new advance techniques? Theres still chance.

Discuss...

 

[Irow]

well fox shine was still not useless in 64 his shine cancel was much "easyier" dash cancel shining. yes fox is really nerf. his killin moves now rely on forward kills instead of ups, shine is down a few notches, floatier, and less combo ability(so far). but because hes nerfed does not mean hes not a good character. the nerfs in fox were very big from his melee counter part, but imgine fox without his nerfs...

 

[Airmicro]

i think they had problems with fox because they played with him the way they played with him in melee. However, since fox was first on the tier list, i find it reasonable for him to be somehow nerfed (if ihe shows to be on the long) and for other characters (like bowser) to be boosted.

 

[Erow Devastates]

well fox shine was still not useless in 64 his shine cancel was much "easyier" dash cancel shining. yes fox is really nerf. his killin moves now rely on forward kills instead of ups, shine is down a few notches, floatier, and less combo ability(so far). but because hes nerfed does not mean hes not a good character. the nerfs in fox were very big from his melee counter part, but imgine fox without his nerfs...

Yes foxes down grade was necessary thing. but i bet he still gonna b a great character. he's shine was a big part of his melee self but i bet their still will b uses for it. fox was top tier in melee so he was jus askin to get nerfed, like pikachu is 64.

 

[Tony_]

To be completely fair, almost all the speed characters got hurt badly. Their attacks shouldn't have much or any knock back unless its a smash attack now. That alone balances them out.

 

[paralasalud]

well with multiple air dodges then shine spiking is...

 

[billythegoat]

It seems rather obvious that yes he has been nerfed.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Even if Fox isn't nerfed overall, some of his moves were obviously nerfed. His U-air no longer kills like it use to. The shine spike was weakened, and his running and falling speed were reduced.

 

[mattram08]

I've seen videos of people playing as fox in the demo version of the game. His attacks have a lot less knockback now, but he still has his speed. The knockback won't matter much if you can rack up 120% in a few seconds. Also, the Landmaster FS is HUGE. It takes up the whold stage and you can fire the cannon which does a whopping of damage. I haven't seen anyone shine or do any kind of shind combo, but this is probably because they couldn't figure out how to do it with the new control style (since they weren't using a cube controller). And of course the shine still reflects, so I can still beat the tar out of my friend who is a Samus user and prefers distance combat. In the end, fox users will find a way to make fox one of the best characters again. It might take a little time, but we'll do it.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Fox was cheap, he moved really fast and hit really hard.. he could clearly be used by almost anyone and do severe damage especially on characters that were slow or/and light.

Characters like that need to be nerfed, or the game becomes well.. unbalanced.

 

[mattram08]

I seem to remember that the little feather-weight Pichu had RIDICULOUS knock-back, but he stunk so it evened out.

 

[SJAK47]

Yeah but remember, Pichu had absolutely no range. So to make up for it, his attacks had better-than-average knock back all around.

As for Fox users, I'm sure speed will be more of the game plan rather than pure power in Brawl.

 

[Irow]

I seem to remember that the little feather-weight Pichu had RIDICULOUS knock-back, but he stunk so it evened out.

But fox had better range. He was much, much, much harder to kill. He had his Uair that was superbly overpowered. And he quite hard to kill for a character of his weight. And Pichu wasn't evened out. He did damage to himself, didn't have really good kill moves, was easy to kill. It's easy to say Pichu was broken. Just broken in the bad way.

 

[sfox8]

People assume for the same reasons that they assume other characters will be nerfed or powered up. People seem to think this game will be much more balanced than Melee (which isn't a bad thing) so from the demo, people that played can draw conclusions as to how balanced the characters are. Then they just assume the rest will be like that.

It also has to do with videos. People assume Kirby is going to be much better this time around judging from the SE video.

Basically it's all just assumption. Of course nobody knows yet, but it wouldn't hurt if Fox was powered down a bit (along with the other top tiers) to balance things out a bit more.

 

[Irow]

We're assuming fox is nerfed because he just doesn't have the power he possessed in Melee. His shine was way too good. His Uair. His Up-smash. A lot of the times, he could kill a lot faster and at lower percents then some of the strong characters. It's very obvious he doesn't have the kill potential he used to have. Or the high percents a Fox would require to die.

Fox got nerfed, no doubt about it. A speedy character like Fox shouldn't have a bunch of strong moves.

 

[Maikeru17]

Yeah, Fox was clearly nerfed. He's floatier, and has less knockback, his uair got hit with a nerftruck, and his shine was beat with a nerfstick. It's obvious from videos, AND Gimpy's thread.
:'[ Fox definitely shouldn't "shine" (aha, see what I did therr?) in two games - It's someone else's turn to rule in Brawl, and I'm pretty sure Sakurai knows that.

Fox was cheap, he moved really fast and hit really hard.. he could clearly be used by almost anyone and do severe damage especially on characters that were slow or/and light.

Characters like that need to be nerfed, or the game becomes well.. unbalanced.

Fox was fast, "cheap" and hit really hard, but he could NOT be used to take some medicore smasher to the top. Fox actually required/s a lot of skill to use him in his broken, top-tier form. Unlike Falco. /wrists.

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

Lets hope sheik isnt nerfed as well. no one ever defeated the sheik i played and they rarely beat zelda.

 

[Raptorbite]

Yes he was nerfed, just like he should've been.

But lets hope that everyone's notions of "nerf" are replaced with "balance" when the game come out.

 

[Fearthesmash]

the general balance of Brawl has been improved over Melee, fast characters no longer the hardest hitting attacks. Characters with godly recovery moves are no longer some of the heaviest. Characters tend less towards 1 move which is definitvely better than all their other moves. It makes plenty of sense from a balance standpoint.

Oh and an original thought here, what if the shine was now useful for reflecting projectiles?! CRAZY!

 

[iron blade]

People assume for the same reasons that they assume other characters will be nerfed or powered up. People seem to think this game will be much more balanced than Melee (which isn't a bad thing) so from the demo, people that played can draw conclusions as to how balanced the characters are. Then they just assume the rest will be like that.

It also has to do with videos. People assume Kirby is going to be much better this time around judging from the SE video.

Basically it's all just assumption. Of course nobody knows yet, but it wouldn't hurt if Fox was powered down a bit (along with the other top tiers) to balance things out a bit more.

i agree, the only characters we can really talk about are the ones played at e4all. no one knows what the rest of the characters are like, so until the game comes out anything said about them is a guess

 

[Psydon]

Brawl was only out for 4 days and yet it was just a demo. Why are people assuming he is nerfed when we haven't played the full version and haven't found any new advance techniques? Theres still chance.

Discuss...

Look, dude, Fox is nerfed. Get over it. Just because he's nerfed doesn't mean he sucks now. The Shine is nerfed but at least he still has it; they could've very easily reprogrammed the Reflector so that it doesn't repel people at close range. Fox is still a very fast character with a great Fsmash and Dsmash.

 

[GreenKirby]

*expects the number of Fox players to go down drastically*

 

[geemann2236]

He WAS nerfed. When I played him, his air speed has been slowed (Along with every1 else's). He also has had Shine Cancel nerfed, and there are obviously no wavedashes. Projectile Cancel is out, making it very annoying to spam lasers. He also isn't the fastest character anymore, Sonic is, which significantly hurts Fox's usefulness.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Fox is nerfed, but he is still a good character.

Yes, the main thing is the change in the utilities of his shine have been changed, but it's actually still useful in some situations(You can actually multi-shine in the air by just shining constantly, and lowers yourfall speed dramatically,lol). It doesn't do the same horizontal knockback as if you were to do it on a character such as Link, where he would slide against the ground, it knocks them down like Fox or Falco. You can still jump cancel shines, but it must be done quickly*While holding Down+B*.

That's enough about the shine, now about the actual Fox.

Some of Fox's moves have been nerfed, and some of them have been improved. His U-smash and Uair have een nerved obviously, but not by a significant amount. Fox's U-smash can still kill around 130% (minimum) mark, which is relatively low considering that the average character lives longer in Brawl. His U-air has been hurt alot, I couldn't find myself killing anyone with it. His Dair is actually better than his Melee counterpart in terms of hit stun. It's possible to do Dair > U-smash fluidly. His Nair is the same sex kick, but I believe the animation ends quicker than it did in Melee. His Bair went through a dramatic change, it's no longer a semi-sex kick, but a roundhouse like kick. It has the same priorities as the SSBM Bair, but it just isn't a sex kick (It's fairly quick now). Now, on to his Fair, which is now an amazing aerial attack. It's mechanics are the same as Melee's, but here are some changes:

-It gives you momentum in the air when you do it (Decreases your drop speed and increases vertical height while doing it)
-It comes out very fast and ends very fast
-It can be used for am aerial combo (The last kick on the Fair has vertical knock back and you can jump out of it quickly)
-It works well out of a short hop

The Fair is a great aerial to utilize now. His tilts and smashes are pretty much the same as in Melee, so they don't requier any explaining on how they are utilized.

Fox as a character seems to be floaty now, but still acts like a fast faller. Generally, all characters in Brawl feel floaty, but the individual fall speed of each character is still different. Fox can still be considered to be a fast faller regaurdless. His speed is also still very good, but not as fast as Sonic, though.

His blaster got nerfed in terms of range, so it's even more useless now. His Illusion is pretty much the same, except that it gives you momentum after it is used so you won't drop like a rock after you use it. It's harder to sweat spot the edge with the illusion now, but it's pretty good in terms of recovery. The Fire Fox recieved a small range nerf, but it's utilities are even better with the auto-sweat spotting functions in Brawl.

Fox is still a great character, he's just used a differently. And I think he still has potential. Fox may not be as fast as Sonic, but sonic can't kill like Fox.

 

[Koji Syntax]

he'll probably be overpowered in some way

 

[Ghost07]

We're gonna just have to wait to brawl comes out.
Brawls is a diferent game so a nerf fox from melee could
still be a good fox in brawl.

 

[GreenKirby]

He also isn't the fastest character anymore, Sonic is, which significantly hurts Fox's usefulness.

When was he ever the fastest character?

 

[2007]

he'll probably be overpowered in some way

lol.

from what I read of Gimpy, he later realized that Fox was not as nerfed as they thought. saying the the upsmash and such killed at 120-130% was probably due to everyone being stronger (or weaker depending on how you look at it)

Fox was nerfed for sure, since he was top tier and had everything to lose. That doesn't mean he got Ness'd or Kirby'd, but he did lose some of his Melee pep.

just a thought.
=2007=

 

[PyroRyuken]

Fox was cheap, he moved really fast and hit really hard.. he could clearly be used by almost anyone and do severe damage especially on characters that were slow or/and light.

Characters like that need to be nerfed, or the game becomes well.. unbalanced.

Yeah, and my freind calls bowser and peach cheap when I beat him with them while he uses fox.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yeah, and my freind calls bowser and peach cheap when I beat him with them while he uses fox.

For future notice, don't use your friends as a referance to dictate your skill, alot of people hate that. Your friend must not even know basic tec skill with Fox if you were able to beat him with such ease with Bowser. The average Fox player and completely destroy Bowser just by being technical. Even though beating someone with Bowser does make me smile.

 

[schlepboogie]

A lot of people around the boards have been saying fox is nerfed because his difficulty to shine cancel and no wavedash. But can we really say that? Look at it this way...

In Super Smash Bros 64 fox's shines were almost useless and the only way he really did combos were by linking his dairs, fairs, down tilts, up tilts, lasers and up smashes. Now lets look at what got nerfed from ssb64 to melee...

Dair: Wasn't as strong and couldn't really be used for much combos (Except for drill shines. We will discuss later).
Fair: The move changed and it was really really bad.
Down tilts: Same as Dair.
Up tilts: Same as Dair and Down tilt.
Lasers: Didn't have any hit stun.

Now later on in melee we got used to the game and discovered wavedashes and waveshines which brought fox to top tier.

Brawl was only out for 4 days and yet it was just a demo. Why are people assuming he is nerfed when we haven't played the full version and haven't found any new advance techniques? Theres still chance.

Discuss...

fox isnt getting redesigned, sakurai knows tiers are rediculous and whoever sat there and came up with the idea of "tiers" has got to get the **** out of the house and go outside.. first off fox is designed for speed not power, thats how he always was meant.. alot of you people are just pissy cause you are used to taking advantages of his glitches to win. sakurai isnt an idiot and realizes alot of people would hate to play against a bunch of glitched little ***gats like yourselves over wifi. So no fox isnt really nerfed, he is just the way he is meant to be. same as peach... peach was never supposed to be that strong either and she was nerfed for brawl too.. And if for some reason ******* reason sheik gets in (even though she wasnt in tp) u can bet your *******es she is going to be nerfed to for the same reason, sheik was not designed to be a strong character like that. ***gats

 

[SJAK47]

^ Now that's being harsh, but I know what you mean. Nobody saw Fox, Peach or Sheik as powerhouses but because of Melee's mechanics, they were too good, hence the creation of "tiers".

But this is about Fox and he is meant for speed, as already mentioned numerous times.

 

[2.72]

No, fox is not nerfed. I went to E for All, and fox was far more powerful than he was in melee. We all decided that it would be funny to give the opposite impression, though, so we got together and fabricated a lot of fake E for All videos that show fox nerfed, and a few of the better writers like Gimpy typed absolutely hilariously wrong reports on Fox. I giggled so much watching him write that.

Everything I say is a lie

Now that I have that out of my system, I agree with you. We really don't know which characters are the most powerful, and therefore tier list discussions are banned. Fox may be top tier again, or he may be mid tier. He doesn't look that great at first glance, and that's all we got. For all we know, Yoshi may be top tier.

Even if he wasn't changed, the entire environment is different. Everyone else was changed, the physics engine is different, DI is way more effective, chain throwing is more or less out, wavedashing is out, air dodging was revamped, characters are floatier, and on and on and on. We can say, though, that some of his good melee abilities got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat.

 

[smashbro29]

to quote sonic rush's insane lyrics fox was "too black too strong" well maybe not the black part but still too strong and too fast and the blaster was so cheap on final destination he could repeadetly shoot and there was no dodging it you had to take the 10% just to reach him so again too strong nerf was completley necessary i'm very glad they balanced it out like in smash 64 it didnt matter too much on character everyone had a chance so really i hate tiers and really hope they are extremely minimal and i can pick bowser and still have a chance against fox (i have nothing against fox i love starfox64)

 

[SirroMinus1]

You could of just read gimpys thread.
and i think samurai panda's thread said stop putting Discuss at the of your topic.

 

[Shadow312]

This whole nerfed thing makes me angry. Fox and Peach were my biggest mains in Melee. I really hope they perform the same if not better...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No, fox is not nerfed. I went to E for All, and fox was far more powerful than he was in melee. We all decided that it would be funny to give the opposite impression, though, so we got together and fabricated a lot of fake E for All videos that show fox nerfed, and a few of the better writers like Gimpy typed absolutely hilariously wrong reports on Fox. I giggled so much watching him write that.

Everything I say is a lie

Now that I have that out of my system, I agree with you. We really don't know which characters are the most powerful, and therefore tier list discussions are banned. Fox may be top tier again, or he may be mid tier. He doesn't look that great at first glance, and that's all we got. For all we know, Yoshi may be top tier.

Even if he wasn't changed, the entire environment is different. Everyone else was changed, the physics engine is different, DI is way more effective, chain throwing is more or less out, wavedashing is out, air dodging was revamped, characters are floatier, and on and on and on. We can say, though, that some of his good melee abilities got hit pretty hard with the nerf bat.

Wow, you're dumb.

Just because Fox's mechanics are different doesn't mean he isn't a good character. Quit viewing the game from Melee's perspective, this is a new game.

On top of that, I got the furthest with Fox at E For All. Fox has great potential.

 

[True Fool]

A couple of small things about him have been made worse, while a couple of small things have been made better, his fsmash and fair I believe. Even if he isn't top-tier without shine cancelling, it's still likely that he's high-tier.

But tier discussion for Brawl is ridiculous, we only had four days with the demo. Till M2K goes through the whole game and finds every wierd little thing*coughlikehedidlasttimecough*, we know nothing about the tiers.

 

[shadenexus18]

The only thing I'm slightly dissapointed about is his "Fast Fall" ability is gone. Still guys, we have yet to spend hours upon hours upon more hours of really practicing all of Fox's new tricks of the trade. All we have to do is explore McCloud from scratch. Yeah I know, it's a headache to do so, but I surely don't mind.

 

[iron blade]

Wow, you're dumb.

Just because Fox's mechanics are different doesn't mean he isn't a good character. Quit viewing the game from Melee's perspective, this is a new game.

On top of that, I got the furthest with Fox at E For All. Fox has great potential.

LOL. you get right to the point don't you?

back on topic, we can't judge fox based on a few days of gameplay. just because he is different doesn't mean he is bad.