Is Cloud brain-dead?

[Onoh]

Cloud is definitely one of the best characters in the game due to his mobility, damage, and disjoints. This has caused many people to believe him to be best in the game and even to some overpowered. Both of these topics are debatable right now, but one topic that is clear-cut to me is whether he is brain-dead or not. Characters such as Mario and Ness are considered brain-dead because of the amount of knowledge you need to use the character at a competitive level, or, to put it bluntly, you only need to use four or five moves to win. I honestly do not see why people say that Cloud is a brain-dead character compared to the likes of Ness.

I believe the biggest reason Cloud is considered brain-dead is because of his frame data. Considering he is a hard-hitting swordsman, he has uncomfortably good frame data on most of his moves unlike characters like Ike and Shulk. This doesn't mean Cloud has windows he can be punished though. Nair and Dair when not auto-cancelled are unsafe to land with and can be punished pretty hard. Bair and Fair need to be spaced properly in order to be safe as well. And, although most people have a hard time with this, all of his smash attacks are punishable especially when not spaced. The difference between Mario and Cloud in this scenario is that you have to learn spacing when using Cloud instead of just throwing out moves. Mario can do any aerial except fair and be perfectly safe if he uses jab or shield afterward. Also, the stupidity that is up smash and down smash have crazy good frame data and power so you can literally spam them. Although they can be punished, it is hard to in a way that is rewarding and since they come out so quickly it is harder to react to them. Cloud's down smash does come out frame 8, but the hitbox on it leaves something to be desired.

Cloud is able to kill fairly well with his limits, which are, I believe, his best tools. Limit Cross Slash is one of the best killing moves in the game far none. The biggest problem with it though, or with any limit, is that it can only be used once and it goes away for a minimum of six seconds, which is a decent amount of time. This teaches a Cloud player to use limit wisely and be punished for using it improperly. But there are moves, such as Ness' back throw, that can be used multiple times in succession and receive no punishment for its use. There is very little skill in grabbing your opponent at 110% and throwing them. Another great tool of his is his uair, another reason why he considered brain-dead. So much damage, big hitbox, and can kill. The thing is though that even if you use that move a lot, it eventually becomes weakened through staling. Moves like Mario's up tilt do so little damage it doesn't matter too much that they are stale, and in this case they lead to many follow-ups. Also moves like Ness' fair put the opponent at a disadvantageous position. Cloud's uair should really be used once or twice in succession because it eventually weakens a lot and don't put the opponent in too bad of a position (you can always grab the ledge or even air dodge at the right time).

In all honesty, every character takes skill to master. Top players use these characters because they are undoubtedly good and that is a reason why they are considered "brain-dead". Not one character is good enough to spam moves over and over again and win. This is why I believe Cloud is not brain-dead.

Let's face it, the only real brain-dead character is Brawl Meta Knight.

 

[Conn1496]

the only real brain-dead character is Brawl Meta Knight.

Except I've heard multiple people say that Meta Knight actually takes a lot of skill to play beyond "being carried" level. lol

That being said, I wouldn't say "No character is 'brain-dead'.", but I also think the term itself is unfair and inaccurate because the same characters often have a much harder time with what limited options they have. It's fine to call Ness or Mario "easy", but actually playing them is a whole different story.

Brain-dead is the completely wrong term - they're more like "one trick ponies" for the general part, and relating to Cloud - no, Cloud is not that simple. I've seen people call Diddy and Sheik "easy" too and that's just... -stupid. Those characters might have big advantages, but they're far from simple to play at a level that isn't you just being carried by minimal character knowledge. -and I think the same really applies to the entire cast - it just doesn't stop certain characters being mostly bread and butter easy bake combos like Mario, Ness, etc.

Still, all characters have their negative stigma, and Cloud's is that his frame data and hitboxes make him just too safe and "raw power" for anyone to do 100% bad with him. He's a "safe" pick. He's the cheap way out. "Everyone has a pocket Cloud.". It just goes on and on from there.

As a final note, it's no doubt Cloud's positives/negatives play right into the actual brain-dead style some players employ, and while it's not optimal for Cloud, Cloud is optimal for the style, so there's 0 surprise then that people think he's brain-dead or too strong when he can require minimal effort. I also think a lot of people like to play Cloud because "his recovery is bad" is almost an excuse for them doing bad now and then, too, which only furthers the stigma. Before Cloud, it was undoubtedly Link who was "The best." for those brain-dead players, but most people got fed-up of 1) Spamming projectiles 2) Playing a character who can't carry them, so Cloud filled the new niche horrendously well.

I personally think that as the meta grows, opinion on Cloud will change and people will find easier ways to beat him. I don't think his strengths are insurmountable, and I actually think that Cloud has some pretty nasty counters waiting to be discovered or optimised. It's just down to top players to better employ them. Until then, Cloud will keep that stigma.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

The entire cast, no, the basic premise of super smash bros as a fighting game revolves around mastering your character, finding which moves you can abuse to win against your opponent while also adapting to the moves your opponent is abusing - because they are good moves.

Cloud has simple raw power and very easy to abuse moves, but he's not braindead. You will get shield-grabbed to death if you do not space perfectly with cloud. Mario can't win unless he grabs, and is beaten by range. Ness will get gimped every time by an experienced player - the point is that brain dead characters don't exist. Saying a character is brain-dead is you making an excuse for why your opponent beat you, and not acknowledging that you yourself have not figured out how to beat their strategy.

Just be adaptable and respect your opponents even if you think their play-style is dumb or annoying

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud is very easy to use I'll give you that, but he isn't braindead.

The core of Cloud relies on fundamentals. If you understand the basics of Smash, you might do well with him. He isn't a character one can easily pick up and get good at; there are many pocket Clouds that have failed because they think he's an instant win button. You need to learn how to space your moves; if you go all willy-nilly, you will get punished for it. Cloud has good frame data, but he is still very punishable. The moves you mentioned, up smash and down smash, can easily be punished.

When I think of a braindead character, I think of pre-patch Diddy Kong the most. That character had an easy one-and-two combo (down throw into up air, the infamous Hoo-Hah) that could kill the majority of the cast rather early and it was very hard to avoid. When I played Diddy, I felt very dirty doing so; I don't feel dirty playing Cloud.

I should also mention, compared to pre-patch Diddy Kong, Cloud is easily beatable. Along with having poor endlag on most of his moves, his recovery is very mediocre without Limit Climhazzard; even if he does or doesn't have Limit, his recovery is pretty predictable and punishable. This could be seen by how easily ZeRo won Apex 2015 with Diddy Kong and how Cloud hasn't won a major yet (he's placed well, but a solo Cloud hasn't won yet).

Overall, Cloud is a character that requires fundamentals, knowledge of how to space his moves, and when is the right opportunity to use Limit. Without that knowledge, you won't be doing well with him.

 

[Bobert]

There aren't any brain dead characters in Smash. Anybody that calls a character brain dead is just salty that they lost and are destined to continue losing until they stop johning and improve themselves. Other characters are easier to use than others, but that doesn't make them "brain dead".

 

[JohnnyB]

Braindead characters either have really flowchart like play that's difficult to counter (which doesn't really exist in this game anymore), or rewards that are incredibly skewed and easy. Bayos witch twist combos (IF your opponent isn't capable of getting out of them), and pre-nerf luigis grab/regrab/fireball shenanigans qualify because they very easily give you huge reward for basically no good reason. Cloud has nothing like any of that. All he has is good hitboxes, frame data, movement, and limit. If you have great fundamentals then the combination of all those things makes him extremely powerful, but he certainly isn't braindead. It takes a lot of skill and thought to extract all the reward you can from him.

 

[Zenithia]

The only brain-dead things dead thing are the people who say characters that you have to actually get good at playing are "brain-dead."

 

[Metagame]

A lot of people are not understanding the meaning of "brain dead" here.
Since Cloud is super easy to pick up, being basically good at everything (don't quote my salty ass on that, now. Everyone else has explained how good he is already) he's always a safe pick in any situation. That's why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone pick Cloud with the edgy alt costume after they lose a few rounds. He requires very little knowledge of the actual character to be able to play good.
I'm not invalidating all Cloud 'mainers', he is a viable character in competitive play and is somewhat unique, but how horrificly easy he is to actually play, it seems that nowadays I'll fight 3 or 4 people in FG in a row who only use Cloud because of that reason. He's an easy cop-out, the safest pick. That's why I personally think Cloud is 'brain dead'. Brain dead doesn't mean he doesn't take skill, brain dead means that he's an ultra safe and easy pick to people lacking skill because of his attributes.
I've seen good Cloud players, it can happen. But for the most part, I cringe inside when I hear somebody say "I main cloud."

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

A lot of people are not understanding the meaning of "brain dead" here.
But for the most part, I cringe inside when I hear somebody say "I main cloud."

so basically you're salty that you lose to FG cloud players? Pit is a safe pick, he's basically good at everything as well. Is he braindead?

 

[TurboLink]

so basically you're salty that you lose to FG cloud players? Pit is a safe pick, he's basically good at everything as well. Is he braindead?

Pit is basically an all-around character. Do you even know what that is?

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

Pit is basically an all-around character. Do you even know what that is?

is the pope catholic?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Absolutely.

I even have 100% true, irrefutable, scientifically proven video evidence to back it up.

 

[ShadowGamerOmega]

Honestly, I've never liked the term "brain-dead". Yes, some characters are relatively easy to pick up (such as Cloud and Mario), but I wouldn't necessarily distinguish anyone as being a "noob character". At a high level of play, under-utilizing your character's full kit will end up getting you killed, and it still takes quite a lot of practice and skill to see results with even the "easiest" or "strongest" characters.

I do have criticism towards the heavy usage of Cloud though. My maining philosophy is that I choose characters that fit my playstyle well and ones that I can succeed the most with, but not only that, they have to be characters I am very experienced with before I bring them onto the battlefield. For me, my three mains are Ness, Mewtwo, and Cloud, and I've had an extensive amount of training with each of them (Ness since Smash 4's release, Mewtwo since his release, and Cloud since his release). What I hate about the Cloud hype is that people flock to the character seeking better results, ditching their previous mains to main a character that is perceived to be near the top of the current metagame instead, and while I can respect people who pocket the character for occasional use, I can't understand the mentality of those who just drop everything for a top tier whom they have no real experience using.

I fell in love with Cloud upon his release and heavily used him against my tournament friends, and the more I used him, the more I grew with him and figured him out. Soon enough, he replaced Link as my third main and now he's a useful ally for covering my other mains' bad matchups, as well as just providing fighting power of his own whenever I feel like using him. I grew attached to Cloud from my usage of him these past 9 months, and it even inspired me to play through Final Fantasy 7 (which I also loved btw). While I have a history with this character dating back to his release, other people pick him as their sole character because he's an easy top tier and they want results, and that's what really frustrates me, I just don't view those types as true Cloud mains.

 

[Axel311]

Depends on your definition of brain dead. I consider the definition to mean extremely easy to use. So yeah, I consider him braindead because of that. You still need be a good smash player to do extremely well with him, he's no prepatch Bayo, but you can pick up Cloud and beat players better than you by putting in a very small amount of effort in comparison.

 

[Tino]

The only thing "brain dead" around here are the people who make excuses and are too lazy to learn.

 

[Metagame]

The only thing "brain dead" around here are the people who make excuses and are too lazy to learn.

so basically you're salty that you lose to FG cloud players? Pit is a safe pick, he's basically good at everything as well. Is he braindead?

I win around Clouds pretty often in fg, actually. It's just annoying because people who don't have skill try to pick him up for an easy win because of how easy he can be used without much prior knowledge. I can respect some Cloud mains, and I laugh a bit on the inside whenever I give my argument and someone says "git gud salty idiot u just lose against cloud and u have no skill lol". While *braindead* isn't the best term to describe how I feel about Cloud, *braindead* more refers to idiots who think they can spam fsmash and downb limit to win, as with Marios who think down throw - utilt is this godly combo, Falcons who only go for the mlg knee, *those* Link players, etc. They don't tend to win, but the character has a slightly toxic connotation about them because of how some people commonly use them.

Every character has its own toxicity, I just wince when I have to fight Cloud in his alt costume in FG for like the fourth time in a row

 

[WolfmanDeerek]

Braindead... I've watched the debate. I am a total scrub and am therefore qualified to toss in my opinion on the subject.

I have come to recognize certain strategies, not characters, as brain dead. If someone is acting like they are playing Mortal Kombat after they land the first hit I make my frowny face. In mk if you know a string and your opponent can't use a breaker, you don't even have to care what they are doing after you land the first hit of your string. Raiden players don't even have to watch the screen.

But this is Sm4sh!

Tell that to Ganondorf when Mario catches him in the throw to u tilt 0-40+% cycle of "screw you Cuz you just got grabbed" Does the ease make Mario brain dead? No. Is the action brain dead? Arguably, yes. After that has been executed, though, the u tilt chain won't work and Ganondorf can disregard that general danger. Samus and Link are the two characters I have most frequently seen played by good players that can enforce a brain dead game plan of forced approach through projectile spams into Zair and spaced grabs. I get bodied when I use the Dorfman against that stuff. Yes, I mutter expletives under my breath. It's my fault for picking him in the first place, though. Against Dorfman, zone spam game play is boss. Why try harder than you have to?

What does that have to do with whether Cloud is brain dead or not?

I wanted to set the tone for how I see "brain dead" behavior. Yup, Cloud takes learning, proper spacing, anticipation, and a good amount of mixup to succeed against people who play well. Nair, fair, and dair are all begging to be shield grabbed when thrown out the haphazardly. utilt whiffs, missed f smashes, dash and d tilts miss spaced... so many reasons to laugh at poorly played Clouds.

Wait for it....

They are whispering his name......


M... 2... K...

No, I didn't. He isn'the brain dead, neither is his Cloud. At least not when he's playing the top notch players. Then, there are the people who aren't king of Smash and they just get swept away by his torrent of u airs and the consequential reads due to the people trying to air dodge. It can borderline brain dead, because for him it appears effortless.

In short, brain dead game play boils down to whether it can just be thrown out for an easy go at the opponent at hand. What I consider brain dead against character x you may scoff at with character y. If my daughter just tries brain dead dash attacks over and over I might just brain dead shield grab, down throw, cross slash two or three times from 0 damage. it's effortless and effective.

Cloud is not brain dead, though. There aren't many tactics that can ignore the will of the opponent, unless you're comparing a pro to a scrub.

 

[JayE]

I don't think Cloud is braindead. The closest thing braindead in Smash 4 was pre patch Diddy, where you get a grab and just win. If he was braindead, then everyone can just pick up Cloud and win. It doesn't work like that. Sure, he's a common character for counterpicking, but he's not like he has an instant or easy kill setup or something. I don't think any characters are that easy or dumb in Smash 4, except maybe Rosaluma, because Luma is incredibly stupid to me. There's no reason Luma should have that much knockback. But she's not braindead... Rosalina takes skill to play at a high level. You have to be practice and become skilled in order to really be good at this game... You don't just get better by using a pocket Cloud or using cheap ways out.

 

[Metagame]

You don't just get better by using a pocket Cloud or using cheap ways out.

Exactly.

And my problem is that because Cloud is an easy character, people try to resort to him for wins.

Braindead =/= bad, insta win character

Braindead mostly refers to how much Cloud's picked for that 'easy win'. I've had someone throw a bad pocket cloud at me after they lose so much it's criminal.

Doesn't make Cloud 'too easy', he's just generally easy to pick up without much thought, his risk-reward ratio is a bit skewed at lower skill levels.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Personally, I don't find Cloud to be braindead, at least for the most part. Yes, he is easy to use, pick up, and win with. Yes, his options are insanely and I do mean insanely good. But, I don't think Cloud is so braindead that you can literally pick him up and win by not trying. A lot of people here are mentioning pre-patch Diddy and how braindead he was. Does anyone remember how braindead Luigi was before his D-Throw got nerfed? Remember when all he had to do to win was grab you, D-Throw, and kill you with Luigi Cyclone? Remember when people loathed Luigi because of how easy and nearly unbeatable that strategy was? I could be overexaggerating since it's been so long since that fiasco, I don't fully remember how strong that option was.

My definition of braindead is basically picking a character, and doing the exact some thing over and over to win, and managing to win nearly every single time. If I'm not mistaken, Cloud hasn't made many Top 8 national placements, and while his results are good, they aren't that amazing.

 

[Metagame]

No character is truly braindead at this point, really. It's the mindset a lot of Cloud pocketers have that they can just pull him out for an easy win.

 

[Mega-Spider]

No character is truly braindead at this point, really. It's the mindset a lot of Cloud pocketers have that they can just pull him out for an easy win.

And that's a mindset that won't get you very far. I don't care how good Cloud's options are, he's not a character you can just whip out and win by not trying. Otherwise, I'd say just pull out Mario and call it a day.

 

[im just peachy]

i hate his existence in this game

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Braindead is needlessly devisive and inaccurate. Playing cloud is essentially playing the game on easy mode. People make it seem like spacing with cloud/autocancelling his attacks is difficult. Spacing is important with everybody, but spacing with cloud is much easier than spacing with other sword characters. His active hitboxes are generally really generous, his disjoints are huge, his endlag is low. There's not much character knowledge needed, you don't have to be as accurate as you do with other characters, you don't have to play different matchups as differently as most other characters do (you can't always play the exact same way, but switching up how you play neutral isn't that important when you can pretty much always force an approach), he doesn't have any really bad stages, and his matchup spread is amazing. I don't think he's the best character or Crazy OP, but there's good reason he has somewhat of a stigma attached to him.

 

[Crystanium]

I prefer the B word, "basic". Mario feels basic and as much as I wanted to use him, I felt he was too basic. I wanted to use Zero Suit Samus because she felt technical. I ended up using Mario anyway because I enjoy playing as him. I can't say Ness is basic. I've tried him and there are things my brother can do with him that I find kind of difficult to do. (My brother mains Ness.) As for Cloud, if the definition of "brain dead" is being able to use four or five attacks to win, then I'd say yes, Cloud is definitely basic.

I've watched Mew2King's Cloud and at times I hoped he'd lose, but at times I hoped he'd win. It really depends on who I find more interesting. For example, I was hoping M2K would defeat Salem, but he lost. It's the past, though. From what I've observed, M2K uses n-air a lot. It's a good aerial. He uses d-air and moves with it. He uses u-air as well. Then there are his dash attacks, but n-air seems to be the most common. Of all the attacks, M2K uses Limit a lot. I'm no professional Cloud player, but I feel that the tools he has are easy to use. I'd say I find ZSS more technical.

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

if you're not punishing his recovery or literally just shielding his moves you are the braindead one.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

The weaknesses with his recovery are wildly overblown. If you never mix up your recovery and always let your head poke up above the ledge (like so many For Glory clouds do) than yea it's easy to ginp him. Otherwise, it's not that simple. He edgeguards others easier than they edgeguard him in most matchups. Shielding his attacks desn't lead to a punish unless their spacing is awful. From the above post it seems like you don't understand much about facing cloud.

 

[pikazz]

brain dead only applies to those who use the same thing over and over and it results to a win no matter what the opponent do from start to finish.
closest to this was Pre-Diddy when he had anything into a grab and grab could combo and kill the same time.

Cloud is not brain dead as no of his tools or combos is insta-win from the start, but he however has the most powerful tools that requires less work to be effective with, meaning he is one or not the easiest to learn and master

 

[WolfmanDeerek]

Cloud is easy mode? I never saw it that way. IMO he does have the most fluid movement of the cast and his fox trot flows naturally with and without limit. However, he can't just throw attacks out and clinch the win. Cloud's whiffs lag enough for severe punishment. His up b isn't only problematic due to lack of ledge snap without limit, the lack of horizontal movement can lead to very early deaths.

Sure, he has good tools. I don't think anyone can just start winning with him without actually learning his strengths and weaknesses. If a Cloud novice starts doing crazy off stage antics they are bound to face SDs. I happen to be a Ganon main since Melee, so I've grown accustomed to storming off the edge and barely getting the up b recovery. I had some growing pains learning off stage play with Cloud because of that.

Tangling with most of the FE cast off stage can be dangerous. Especially if you start trading ledge trumps. Heck, both Links and Meta Knight I lean towards having an off stage edge as well. Their up b can stage spike hard enough that even at mid % cloud won't make it back to the stage. That's just counting the swords. Have you ever seen Rosalina throw Luma just past the edge and then quickly dair to move him down? Luma Dair destroys Climhazard. I could use other examples but I'll leave it at that as far as recovery is concerned.

I think Cloud is reasonably balanced. His aerials take practice to master. I can totally understand people loathing his existence. One trick ponies can make any character look bad. Ness players do that d throw fair fair fair combo.... Can any Cloud possibly be that annoying?

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

The weaknesses with his recovery are wildly overblown. If you never mix up your recovery and always let your head poke up above the ledge (like so many For Glory clouds do) than yea it's easy to ginp him. Otherwise, it's not that simple. He edgeguards others easier than they edgeguard him in most matchups. Shielding his attacks desn't lead to a punish unless their spacing is awful. From the above post it seems like you don't understand much about facing cloud.

actually if you know how to do it, you can always gimp cloud.

tell me again who is the one who doesn't know how to face cloud?

 

[11volt]

I wouldn't say Cloud is braindead.

Sure, when fighting him it seems like the opponent just uses a move without any thought and it works, but you do have to learn a bit about when certain moves are useful to succeed.

For example, let's discuss Cloud's n-air. Throwing out n-air randomly and all the time without thought is braindead, but when do you actually Cloud win using this strategy? However, with a little bit of experience, n-air can be a very strong move and becomes part of the annoyance a lot of us have for Cloud (among many other things).

The problem is how it only takes a little bit of experience. You can get a ton of reward out of very little effort compared to other characters. Quoting Beefy Smash Doods (Top 5 Ledge Traps - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZnjQZGUnqI), "Cloud is super scary near the ledge and doesn't even need a complicated setup. All he needs is his Limit fully charged and some % on his opponent". They then proceed to go over Limit Cross Slash and how it can cover a lot of options while being deadly and "not being hard to execute at all". Yes, it takes some conditioning and reads, but it is very simple.

In my humble opinion, Cloud is less braindead, but more just basic. My annoyance comes through how he can get so much done with little effort, though this is probably a distorted opinion because I'm a salty Lucina main.

 

[im just peachy]

actually if you know how to do it, you can always gimp cloud.

tell me again who is the one who doesn't know how to face cloud?

lmaooooooooo

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

actually if you know how to do it, you can always gimp cloud.

tell me again who is the one who doesn't know how to face cloud?

^if you could always gimp cloud 100% of the time 1. He wouldn't be top tier 2. He would get gimped all the time at top level play whereas right now it's not all that common 3. cloud has a double jump, limit, and the ability to snap to ledge if he upB's when really close to the ledge then (a little bit away and a tiny bit under).

So ugh, tell me again who doesn't know how to fight/play this character?

Watch a top cloud play somebody who isn't ZSS, Shiek, or Bayo. If cloud does get KO'd off stage more than he gets KO's offstage, it probably won't be by much.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Also I play greninja, my bair is a multihit and thus techable. Don't tell me you can gimp cloud 100% of the time unless you actually do it yourself outside of for glory

 

[Conn1496]

People always confuse recovery exploitability with a recovery's lack of safety, and that's just not the case... Jr. is another big case in that one wrong move can screw you, but it's not like it's capitalized on literally every game, otherwise Jr. would likely be one of the absolute worst characters in the game.

Cloud has a few mix-up options under his belt, and the fact he has decent air-speed is not to be scoffed at. Top that with a wall-jump on some stages, and it's even easier to get back if you know what you're doing. I've even seen players use it away from the stage to cover their ass as they get back. -and while it's not impossible to exploit even that, it's not literally every game that Cloud's recovery weaknesses come into play, yet people treat it like it is because one bad move can KO him.

In fact, there are a handful of characters I can think of with technically less safe recoveries than Cloud... Ness, Duck Hunt, Rosa and Pit all have much less safe Up-Bs than Cloud IMO (Even if those characters don't always have to necessarily use them - that's just another factor to remember with Cloud, too.), because there's way, way more opportunity to punish, even when it doesn't KO. It just so happens that if you do punish Cloud, there's a good chance it's a stock gone, not just free %... Though with the correct punish the same can be said of those characters, too.

All that said, it's still a weakness, and it can't be ignored. I just think people overblow it horribly because of frankly bad comparisons to Mac who's recovery is both exploitable and really unsafe. Cloud still carries players of a very basic play-style regardless of this 'weakness' and that's why I don't think it's that big of a deal. But as I said before, just because "brain-dead" players find it easy to play the character doesn't mean the character is always or inherently brain-dead...

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

^if you could always gimp cloud 100% of the time 1. He wouldn't be top tier 2. He would get gimped all the time at top level play whereas right now it's not all that common 3. cloud has a double jump, limit, and the ability to snap to ledge if he upB's when really close to the ledge then (a little bit away and a tiny bit under).

So ugh, tell me again who doesn't know how to fight/play this character?

Watch a top cloud play somebody who isn't ZSS, Shiek, or Bayo. If cloud does get KO'd off stage more than he gets KO's offstage, it probably won't be by much.

Easy, here ya go

Here's THE top cloud playing someone who isn't ZSS, Shiek, or Bayo, getting JV3'd.

Dude... just accept that cloud has a huge weakness and move on with your life

 

[Yσנιмιтѕυ]

Also I play greninja, my bair is a multihit and thus techable. Don't tell me you can gimp cloud 100% of the time unless you actually do it yourself outside of for glory

I get that he can be very difficult to deal with and I get that you're probably frustrated at cloud's seemingly overpowered tools - but that doesn't change the fact that his recovery absolutely CAN BE exploited if you know how to do it and you are SMART ENOUGH to put him in that position. This is what seperates scrublords like yourself (and myself admittedly) from competing with the top players. They really just... understand what it will take for them to beat their opponents character weaknesses and are very efficient at getting those characters into a disadvantaged state. It's called the META - and knowing it will win you the game more often than not. If you want help or practice gimping a cloud let me know and I'll lab with you dude, just ask, I'm really friendly.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

I never said it can't be eploited and honestly I don't have too much trouble with fighting cloud (the greninja matchup isn't too bad), my point was directly aimed at MR. T saying you can gimp him 100% of the time which objectively isn't true. That is 1 example of a top level cloud getting gimped by the #1 smash 4 player in the world, and there are also examples of top level diddys getting gimped at 0 and getting edguarded hard by limit cross slash/nair. That doesn't change the fact that Cloud doesn't get gimped nearly as much as Cloud mains pretend he does at top level play. It's definitely his biggest weakness, but it's hardly a massive one when compared to the weaknesses other characters have. Also M2K is notoriously wreckless with limit which is more highrisk high reward. If you use limit more conservatively (like some of the japanese clouds do; although not as much as of late) it makes his recovery much better. I don't think Cloud is some OP monster and I don't think he can auto win by pressing buttons, but his weaknessess aren't that severe when contrasted with his strengths. Having a bad recovery is actually becoming less of a weakness as players move towards ledge coverage rather than going offstage. As Cloud's ledge coverage is great, going off stage and putting yourself in a disadvantaged state is risky, and often isn't worth it.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Also, you've never seen me play so you have no Idea if I'm a scrub. Again, I'm alright with the cloud matchup. I can stomp all the clouds in my region (shanghai, which has a small but growing scene), I just don't like cloud as a character. He's limiting diversity, he's easy to pick up, he singlehandedly ruined doubles. Cloud has counterplay but, "lol just gimp him for free" is a response I've been hearing a lot which just isn't realistic to do consistently in top level play. Zero did it at endgame, but he doesn't do it consistently overalll

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Also (last point I swear lol) M2K ****ed up. He tried to go high over and over against diddy. Bad move on his part. He knows better than to recover like a for glory champion