Is anybody else puzzled by Final Destination being the only choice in the competitive online mode?

[doomberry]

I've just watched the Smash Bros. Direct and even though I'm nowhere near a good player, I found that using only Final Destination for competitive online matches was rather objectionable.

Only allowing Final Destination is a huge advantage for certain characters. Namely, those that are projectile-heavy and those that do not rely on upwards finishing moves.

All stages now have a "final destination" mode where events do no happen, so there is little reason to autoban all other stages. It is understandable, however that Nintendo wouldn't want stage picking and counterpicking to get in the way of actual battling.

That being said, there exists other well-balanced stages that give advantage to other characters, such as Battlefield or the Village from Animal Crossing. As such, I do not see a problem with randomly picking one of these few stages.

Final Destination being the only choice implies a warped meta, and I don't think this is any good.

TL;DR : FD is the only choice and that gives advantage to a certain subset of characters, which will warp the online meta. Why do this when you can use a pick system or allow more balanced stages?

What are your opinions on this matter? Do you believe Nintendo should instate picking and counterpicking? Only Final Destination? Other opinions? (Also, please operate under the assuption that the Online Mode will run without hiccups. This is not a thread about lag.)

 

[Kevandre]

I'm not competitive myself but the competitive players that I met are in that Final Destination Fox Only No Items type of people, so I think it would have pissed off a lot more people had they not had it just be FD

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The reason for Final Destination being used for the competitive play is because that stage has no hazards and platforms. In other words, everyone will be fighting on even ground.

 

[skstylez]

because that stage has no hazards and platforms. In other words, everyone will be fighting on even ground.

That's not true. Well, unless you're talking about a measurement of height =p. Characters like Samus are heavily gimped without platforms, while falcos and melee Marth go to town.
There are a number of things competitive players look for in stages. Hazards, layout & size I would say are the main things. Layout meaning somewhat symmetrical, has edges and normal 4 side blast zones

Yes FD is -a- competitive stage, but it is not THE competitive stage

 

[Hippopotasauce]

As four thousand other people have suggested, adding a Battlefield mode to the stages with Final Destination modes would help amend the problem.

 

[skstylez]

As four thousand other people have suggested, adding a Battlefield mode to the stages with Final Destination modes would help amend the problem.

that's literally all that's needed. Other additions would be nice, but not necessary

 

[Thirdkoopa]

The only reason it was, as you guys may be able to guess, is we don't know what the stage list will be yet. Didn't it take years to get the other Smash games legal stage lists? And don't you dare say Project M.

Relax, patches can (and possibly will) happen. Even if they don't, you don't have to play this. You can just use that LAN Adapter, get faster connection, and play tournaments, go to tournaments, and play with friends offline/online.

...though i am worried that it won't be enough of a measurement. IMO, it better allow me to pick team matches only if i want team matches. 2v2 and 1v1 only would have been nice, but whatever.

(for my answer, I'm not questioned by the stage as much as I am the ranking method and the match making)

 

[Violenceman]

Final Destination is far from my favorite stage, but I can understand why they would only want to use one stage and why FD would be that stage. One stage cuts out the "Oh, you just won because it picked this stage" controversy; with one stage, you know exactly what you are in for each round. And FD is the simplest, most basic stage, even if it isn't completely "balanced".

Speaking of stage balance, let's also not forget 2 things:

1. For Glory mode is not strictly 1v1. It is an option, but we have seen 4 player for glory pics and a lot of advantages that FD grants certain characters become a lot less applicable when you add a third and fourth player to the mix.
2. Considering we have a mode solely devoted to one stage, I think it is fair to assume they will at least try to balance this game more with this stage in mind to minimize the gap between characters.

 

[Renji64]

I like bf and stage variety all we need is decent sized stages no hazards. We need more than FD at least.

 

[The Real Gamer]

The reason for Final Destination being used for the competitive play is because that stage has no hazards and platforms. In other words, everyone will be fighting on even ground.

Although in theory FD would seem like the most neutral stage, it's actually not. Without platforms it gives a huge advantage to projectile heavy fighters and characters with solid ground games (Little Mac in particular is gonna be a terror on FD).

I think most of the competitive crowd would agree that Battlefield is a lot more neutral.

Honestly I don't really care though because I'm just stoked that Sakurai is FINALLY thinking about the competitive crowd. Makes me excited to see what else he has in store for us.

 

[Rock & Roller Wabbit]

I honestly think that that it's a bit of a mix. I, myself think that FD is a good choice for competitive, but the problem I have is that people who use characters that depend on plattforms will most likely go to casual. And that isn't cool. This happens in other games as well: Tomb Raider 2012's multiplayer has people that I see on competitive, then 5 minutes after the match I see them on Casual.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't see why people are so worried that an FD only game mode with favor some characters over others.

Our own stage lists have been heavily influencing who is top, mid, and low tier since Melee. We, ourselves, have been biasing against certain characters with our stage bans from day one. Sakurai is simply taking a page from our book. Everyone should be happy; he's becoming more like us every day.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

If you found yourself asking Sakurai for a competitive online mode and are still whining after this, you really need to stop.

 

[CosmicKirby]

I was thinking an option in the character select menu that let's you specify 0-3 platforms, and just leaving it at that.

 

[Dott]

I think they should put FD and Battlefield only.

 

[Smash G]

I think it's a bit extreme but I'm okay with it. Honestly my tastes don't like stuff like Battlefield anyways though I do like the Animal Crossing level.

I seriously hate Battlefield because it feels so cramped. I like the Animal Crossing one because it has a platform and is bigger.

FD is a great map. I expect the competitive crowd will pick alternatives no matter what though. They could try to define a wider range of levels but there will always be people on each side who think they crossed a line with a certain one. FD-only maps are kind of a way to be overly safe since most people stick with it. It has to be the most played map even in friendly non-competition games.

 

[Qsmash]

Sakurai basically solidified the stereotype that competitive players only play on FD or that FD is the most balanced stage. He should just have it be that each player gets a chance to pick a stage and have it go in order from P1 to P4, or at least have gotten rid of the stage hazards instead of giving us like 20 FDs. I don't have a problem playing with items, but for the competitive side, he screwed us over.

 

[[TSON]]

Everyone's saying "oh he's perpetuating a stereotype" everywhere but honestly what he probably did was look at online statistics. I think it's safe to bet it looks something like this:

- Final Destination (60%)
- Everything else

And that's why he did it. The vast majority of the time I play Brawl online it's on FD even if I'm not the one that picked it.

 

[Smash G]

Basically if the Stereotype is true what's the problem?

I think this will please the majority of people. Yeah it sucks to be in the minority and not be as represented but this is a video game.

 

[Pazzo.]

No stage (Withholding Battlefield, FD, and a few others) is completely "fair", considering the random stage hazards. While I would have liked Battlefield, I'm fine with only using FD.

 

[Qsmash]

Everyone's saying "oh he's perpetuating a stereotype" everywhere but honestly what he probably did was look at online statistics. I think it's safe to bet it looks something like this:

- Final Destination (60%)
- Everything else

And that's why he did it. The vast majority of the time I play Brawl online it's on FD even if I'm not the one that picked it.

We wont know until he says something.

 

[Renji64]

I hope this gets fixed before release if it doesn't i will just deal with it.

 

[Ussi]

Because online ranking when it isn't only 1v1 means much

From what i've seen from my own non-competitive friends, they still prefer FD and they hate BF/SV cause platforms get in their way.

 

[stan423321]

The reason for Final Destination being used for the competitive play is because that stage has no hazards and platforms. In other words, everyone will be fighting on even ground.

I absolutely love how both responders seem to have missed the pun here, and it's good one on its own.

I'm gonna go with the Brawl statistics. My friends (...and me) seemed to like FD, although - I think Sakurai would go into rage after reading that - it was partially because of the aesthetics ("Smashville has cool layout, but this stage is not manly enough!" etc.). Also note that with items FD is a really different stage than without them, and items were forced on medium - I'd say that with the items on high it is one of few stages in which you can keep the whole stage in check. In effect, Sakurai could have thought it was the tournament-ish crowd pushing the stage in non-friendly online matches.

Also, he seems to really despise PSASBR's decision for some reason (it's love/hate in his place, and there are loads of wrong things with PSASBR) - the "hazards off" option, presumably as it was lazy. But the idea stuck with him. FD for everything definitely took more man-hours, even if we find it futile.

In other news, I'm no mod or anything, but stating the obvious - that this is not what you (we?) meant - isn't really constructive, even I understood that you won't be content with it the moment Sakurai showed it off. What matters right now is deducing what kind of feedback channel does actually matter, so that it's possible to "send" a clear message that will not look like some whiny petition from five mad forum-goers. Assuming friendly matches are not analyzed but random ones are, with the new system it's gonna get real hard. All going for FD? We did it right! All going for casual? It was just a vocal minority! Oh well. For me, an "advanced casual" player, the best option seems to be not to play online at all right now...

 

[FalKoopa]

At the very least, they should have allowed Battlefield as well, which more universally agreed as a neutral stage.

Though I'm not surprised by the decision either. At first glance, FD does seem to be the most neutral of the stages. At least, he did make an FD version of every stage which is sweet!

 

[Tornado_Man]

Didn't he say that we could also play on the FD versions of other stages as well?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I believe sakurai built this meta game around FD for competitive play meaning that all characters where built in one way or another to do well on it.

 

[KoRLumen]

I believe sakurai built this meta game around FD for competitive play meaning that all characters where built in one way or another to do well on it.

Samus says hi :C

 

[Artsy Omni]

I dunno why anyone is "Puzzled." I don't think For Glory is really meant to cater to actual hardcore Smash Players who understand the metagame extraordinarily deeply. I think it's meant for players who, on a marginally casual level, want to play under the rules that are largely considered "fair."

Sure, it does give certain characters an advantage, but seriously, what kind of stage is absolutely fair to everyone? I don't think such a stage exists. But he can at least cater to the common notion that Final Destination is the "fairest" stage of all of them.

Do people really care all that much when the mode is specifically for battling random strangers? If you're really competitive, you'll be staging your battles in a more official capacity, will you not?

 

[«[S.M.A.S.H]»]

I think one thing that's been touched upon that people need to keep in mind is that they're thinking of Final Destination's neutrality in terms of games we've already played, when that isn't necessarily applicable to a future game where it's obvious the team is putting far more thought into balance and competitive play in general. While yes, it's pretty obvious from the get-go that Final Destination will be more favorable to linearly-forward projectiles compared to other stages, it's relative to the overall balance and evolution of competitive play. The code and logic of a Melee or Brawl projectile isn't the same as that of 4 projectile, exponentially so in relation to the code and logic of the rest of their respective games and the tools other characters have to deal with them. In relative terms, 4's projectiles could be more unfavorable in general (especially so on non-Final Destination stages) compared to previous games and only be consistently viable on Final Destination. The fact that there are so many long, flat stages tells me that the game may be a little more suited to (besides widescreen HD displays lol) battling on flat ground, even if that just means smoothing out the rough edges that the team believes used to exist in that department in previous iterations without necessarily placing less of an emphasis on aerial/off-stage play.

Little Mac, who would ordinarily be fighting an uphill battle against projectile users, has armored moves and Jolt Haymaker to address them, the latter of which seems to shine even more so on long flat stages. Who knows what other little tools characters have been given to help them out a little against normally unfavorable situations. As said, far more thought is being put into the competitive crowd this time around, and I'm incredibly thankful for that. When there's one whole mode dedicated to a specific style of play—rigidly competitive with as little extenuating circumstances and variables as possible—I'm confident the team is going to do everything they can to make it balanced and fair.

What's more, as has also been touched up, the evolution of competitive play—the "meta," if you will—can also greatly affect the viability of tactics outside the confines of their static coding itself. When people are forced to experience a specific style of play extensively, said specific style of play tends to be forced through an evolutionary process faster as everyone understands it more. That alone can greatly influence the direction competitive play goes.

Final Destination is far from my favorite stage, but I can understand why they would only want to use one stage and why FD would be that stage. One stage cuts out the "Oh, you just won because it picked this stage" controversy; with one stage, you know exactly what you are in for each round. And FD is the simplest, most basic stage, even if it isn't completely "balanced".
Speaking of stage balance, let's also not forget 2 things:

1. For Glory mode is not strictly 1v1. It is an option, but we have seen 4 player for glory pics and a lot of advantages that FD grants certain characters become a lot less applicable when you add a third and fourth player to the mix.
2. Considering we have a mode solely devoted to one stage, I think it is fair to assume they will at least try to balance this game more with this stage in mind to minimize the gap between characters.

From the looks of things in the Direct, the Final Destination variants don't seem to be anything other Final Destination skins, the only difference being the nature of the edge with Mario Galaxy and Dr. Wily's Castle seemingly extending all the way down to the pit. This is driven home by the fact that Battlefield got a Final Destination variant. Maybe this can change in the future? Not to dig on Nintendo here, but they've gotten with the times. Patches are possible if the demand is there. I doubt anything will be changed at all before the game goes gold, but who knows what might happen post-launch. I personally like the idea of Battlefield variants, but would also be fine with full-sized stage variants with their hazards turned off like Dr. Wily's Castle and Pyrosphere.

I'm just glad we're having this conversation right now. The team seems really ambitious about crafting a game that accommodates everyone instead of alienating some.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Samus says hi :C

like i said i believe sakurai balance the characters to be all effective on FD including samus. Samus for all we know might be better on the ground.

 

[Ulevo]

I assume Sakurai did this because Final Destination is the 'casual-competitive' players neutral go to. Nothing will get in the way, and I wanna beat my friend fare and square, so let's go there. Competitive tournament goers know better. I would like to have a higher stage variety for For Glory, but I won't complain about this since For Glory isn't a ranked mode. If anything it will give you a chance to practice bad match ups if you wind up facing characters that excel on those stages.

 

[DaDavid]

As I've said in other topics, it's really the only way Sakurai could be certain that objections would be kept to a minimum.

The stage selection process for tourneys is pretty ridiculous, and expecting the team, or worse, Sakurai by himself to go through all that and come up with an unobjectionable list of stages is honestly just wishful thinking.

It kinda sucks because we know FD isn't the "most" fair stage, but I can't see how they could have done any better without taking too long.

 

[Violenceman]

A Lot Of Awesome Stuff

Exactly my thoughts. I certainly understand why there is a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the validity of this mode, but let's not pre-judge it based on the physics, character design, and balance of previous games. As we saw with Melee and Brawl, it can change pretty drastically from game to game.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Honestly, if anyone was expecting Sakurai to cater to the absolutely truly hardcore competitive smashers, they're setting themselves up for disappointment. The majority consensus, however imperfect, is that FD is the stage for "competitive play." The true elite obviously have an understanding that true balance is not achieved by playing on that stage, but you're delusional if you think that is the majority consensus. Sakurai won't cater to the true elite because it is a small market. Instead, he's catering to the largest possible audiences, which is the casual and the loosely competitive.

The hardcore Smashers don't need a mode to help them play the way it should be played. They didn't need such a mode in the past. What changed?

 

[smashbro29]

Hey at least now when FD is picked at tournaments it won't always be the same freaking stage.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Nintendo just discovered the internet and competitive gaming. Baby steps, guys.

 

[TheTuninator]

While I'm happy to see Sakurai catering for competitive play, as somebody who doesn't like playing with items but enjoys a wide variety of stages, I feel a bit left out. I'd like to either be able to do "For Fun" with items disabled or select a stage list in "For Glory" and be matched with other people who have selected whichever of my stages is chosen by the game.

 

[freesubs]

I'm just glad that there's a decent competitive environment for online play.

While I'm happy to see Sakurai catering for competitive play, as somebody who doesn't like playing with items but enjoys a wide variety of stages, I feel a bit left out.

You'll be aight

 

[Souless_shadow]

I'm pretty indifferent about it. I kind of like mostly because of how epic final destination looks.