intentionally trading moves with firefox

[khaleesi]

hi smashboards, i'm relatively new to the community. so i've been wondering if there is a surefire way/method to trade moves with a firefox that can actually be replicated and beneficial?

i first thought about this when researching about the "armada shine" and how that there is a window of opportunity consisting of no firefox hitboxes that allows another fox to shine spike them. before this "armada shine" was researched and discovered, i could distinctly remember times where i shine spiked a fox in his up b and thought to myself that it was just a random, 'only happens sometimes' occurrence. it was only later on that I learned that there was frame data and timing methods to turn this random occurrence into a helpful technique in the fox ditto matchup.

so then i began thinking of random situations in melee that didn't go as planned for me, but still ended up working, and i came up with the firefox trade situation. sometimes, when i went for a suicide dair offstage as falco onto a firefoxing fox, i would accidently trade moves with him and end up being able to recover, while the fox still dies from the knockback of my dair. this would also sometimes happen with other moves along with other characters.

is there a 10/10 way to consistenly trade moves with the firefox so you can go for suicidal edgeguards but still live? do some moves work better than others because of the hitbox/hurtbox arrangement? does priority play a role in this? is there an optimal timing window such as the "armada shine" to make this work more often?

i am honestly not really looking for a straightforward answer to this, but more so just a discussion about this topic. also, i do apologize if this topic was already brought up but i just really wanted to get it off my mind! thanks.

 

[Xyzz]

Check out the hitboxes of the move your interested in: http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/
If this isn't enough, you can also view them frame by frame, using something like this: https://www.gif-explode.com/

for what will trade, it's the usual for air collision: if both players get a hitbox to connect with a hurtbox on the opponent at the same frame both will get hit.
Yes, obviously the move shouldn't be too stupid in terms of disjointedness (hitboxes extending very far away from hurtboxes), so yes some moves work better. And yes, it's obviously a lot about spacing as well. If you can't find ways that work for you, see what other people do and whether that's something that's convenient for you to imitate

 

[Dolla Pills]

I think Armada does it a lot with Peach nair on low fox recoveries. It's a bit trickier when the fox has more angles available and when you can't float beneath the stage (and probably harder with Falco dair anyway), but it can be done at least sometimes.

 

[-ACE-]

You have to be very familiar with the properties of the hitbox and have great spacing. It's definitely possible in a ton of situations.

 

[Face of /b/]

Fox's firefox uses his body, meaning it's just a regular hitbox and hurtbox, so any move can clash with it so long as it has similar or greater priority. As I'm sure you already know, any disjointed moves will beat it out no problem, since they don't have a hurtbox. If a fox up-b's onto stage low (near floor, not onto ledge) at a 90 degree angle or upwards onto stage at an angle, Fox and Falco's heads are both invincible during an up smash (Fox's head is, but not his snout) so you can take the hit up close if it goes mostly above you and also get the punish. Conversely, both of their legs are invincible when down smashing, so if the go close to or for the ledge, you can just drop it like it's hot and make that roasted chicken fall straight to the abyss. Like you mentioned, you can also shine it and take advantage of the few invincibility frames you get. Find out what your mains have, use it to your advantage, rek face. Also, if you play as Marth, I don't recommend going for the suicide dair unless you have a lead. His sword is disjointed so you'd both go down. This could maybe be bypassed by getting real close before hitting, but then you'll miss the spike. Marth can counter firefox easily (duh), so that's always an option. My biggest recommendation is this. If you're going to try to clash it offstage, be ready to tech. I know this seems obvious, but sometimes it slips out of mind. For the most part, it's easy to tell what your trajectory is going to be after the clash, but hey dude, sh*t happens, ya know? Hope this helps out a bit.

And before someone reks me, when I say their heads are invincible during up smash, I know that it's not for the entire animation, just the start-up frames. Same with the d-smash. I'm just saying these things as examples/reminders, not trying to be that one teacher who leaves out important info because he doesn't know any better. You can check the frame data if you want, you know how it goes. Best of luck to you!!

 

[ChivalRuse]

If Fox's drill trades with another Fox's up-b, it spikes. It's actually not well known, but you can test it.

 

[Necrow]

Weak falco bair trades with firefox a lot of time in my experience. The moving portion more often than the starting fire.

Keep in mind that this is an all-in move, but even if it doesn't trade they usually still die. They probably won't die before you though. They'll get another firefox attempt at a higher position than you even if it won't reach ledge, and your firebird after the bair lag won't stall long enough down low.

If it's spaced and timed right it's essentially a poor man's shine spike.

Generally as a read I'll jump out, shine turnaround, immediately jump out, and throw the bair. The timing feels a bit like messing up a good bair. Kick above their head and the bair should be weak enough. You want to time it such that the weak bair lands on Fox RIGHT as he starts the actual movement of the firefox.

You also want to come down on top of him, and a bit in front. Put falco's balls right in his face. If the spacing is just right and you catch him RIGHT in front of his face as he starts the movement portion, any angle that would reach the stage will trade with your bair. Works for low firefoxes too, just be ready to tech.

DI towards the stage. You get popped up pretty high, so you can trade pretty low and still live. The higher your % the further you can go off-stage.

Reverse bair seems to work sometimes too, not sure which is better though. Reverse bair is easier to time since you don't have to turn around, but it seems to trade less in my experience. Maybe it needs different spacing or something.

Either bair RARELY trades with the beginning fire frames. If you come down with the bair too soon and hit them before they start the movement you'll both usually die, just you first.

 

[GenNyan]

I asked this question a while ago for falco's dair, but it was kinda hidden/buried. The takeaway from this that hasn't been discussed in this thread yet is that you should fast fall before you hit fox. You can definitely pull this off at least somewhat consistently.

Say I'm playing Falco against a fox using Up-B to recover. Is it (reasonably) possible for me to use D-air in such a way that it will trade with Fox's Up-B every time? Like if I started my dair early and hit from the side maybe?

Usually it only happens if your dair hits on the same frame as their fire. Even if you FF that isn't likely though. Most of the time I've seen them trade is when you do a rising dair from below them or when the dair hitbox comes out right as you're on top of them. You also have to keep in mind that if your timing is even slightly off, you might dair them before or after the hitbox.

I recommend nairing if you want to trade. FFing a nair into them will almost always trade and worst case scenario you can at least make it back to the ledge with an up-B as long as you naired as early as possible.

Edit: Just realized you might be talking about the part of Fox's up-B where he's actually moving. If that's the case, it's very easy to trade with dair, but you would really have to know what angle they're taking to be spaced properly. FFing before the collision is the best way to ensure it trades due to hitbox dragging.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

It's super jank but Bowser can trade Dair with Firefox without an insane amount of difficulty.