In Depth Attack Statistics (Update: Reorganized)

[Adapt]

Zero Suit Samus: In Depth Attack Statistics​

This is a very in-depth look at Zero Suit Samus's moveset and the damage and knockback of each and every hitbox of her moves. You can find the following information here for every move:

• How much damage it deals
• What different hitboxes are included in the move
• What frame does it deal damage
• How many frames doe it last
• At what angle will it knock the foe
• When does it kill
• What knockback does the move have

I hope that player's who want to learn more about ZSS will find this information useful and they can incorporate it into their game. If you find any mistakes or have some information that you would like to share, don't hesitate, I am continually updating the post with more information as it is gathered.

Edit History:
- June 26th '08 - Posted + minor edit to 2-3 moves
- June 27th '08 - Updated formatting to make it easier to read
- June 28th ’08 - Included knockback data
- July 23rd '08 - Added knockback angles
- July 26th '08 - Minor edit to uair and jab
- July 27th '08 - Fixed knockback/KGR for dspecial
- August 12th '08 - Updated knockback data for several moves previously tested in slow brawl.
- August 25th '08 - Added the frame data that is available.
- September 19th '08 - Added new spiking hitbox for Up-Special.
- October 6th '08 - Added frame data for the down special
- October 29th '08 - Added knockback data for Up-Special and Smash-Charge Vulnerability
- December 9th '08 - Reorganized the post and put the data into tables

Notes:
- Knockback is determined by the damage percentage after the move has finished, but I am giving percentage before the attack as the kill percentage because that when you want to know if the opponent can be killed. If you want the actual percentage it kills at just add the damage dealt to the kill percentage I am listing.
- The formula for knockback is: V = a*d/m + Vo + f*c
Where:
V = knockback
a = knockback growth rate (KGR)
m = character mass
d = damage (after the hit)
f = character fall compensation
c = general fall compensation

Credit goes to MrSilver for this formula

- All kill percentages are on Mario in the middle of final destination. No DI involved. When using this data for other characters check the character weight list for details on how to account for their different weights: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546
- “Kill Percentage” in blue kills out the side, in red kills out the top, and green indicates the move will spike.
- A value that is highlighted yellow indicates that the data is not confirmed.
- The knockback angles do not include DI either. I plan to add the variation that can occur due to DI in the future.

STANDARD ATTACKS

NOTES
- The jab combo is easily interrupted by most characters. Only on Mr. Game and Watch, Jiggleypuff, and Squirtle is this move in any way reliable. However the single jab comes out in a single frame and can be canceled into ftilt or dtilt to throw off your opponent
- The 5% hit only occurs at the very end of the animation as the hitbox gets pulled in
- The first hit of the utilt will only connect by itself if the foe is in the air beside ZSS when hit.

SMASH ATTACKS

NOTES
- It is highly inadvisable that you charge any of Zero Suit's smashes, she doesn't benefit from it most of the time, and you are subject to the Smash-Charge Vulnerability. The only exception is if you charge the Dsmash you can release it with better timing.
- The 'sourspot' of the fsmash is from directly in front of zamus to about the length of her body when crawling. The 'sweetspot' is the short distance between that point and the tip of the move.
- Charging has no effect on the damage or knockback of the sweetspot, tip or behind parts of the fsmash.
- The amount of charge on the Dsmash has no effect on the amount of stun time.
- The Dsmash is unique in the fact that it can be absorbed as a projectile but NOT reflected.
- There are 5 middle hits for the usmash. each one does the same damage.

AERIALS

NOTES
- The kill percentages for uair on the top platform of Battlefield are as follows: 121% for the strong hit and 199% for the weak hit. These are more useful in practice because you will often be hitting from this height or above.
- The weaker hitboxes of the bair and fair can knock the foe in the opposite direction depending on where the foe is located.

SPECIALS

NOTES
- The stun time of N-B depends on the amount of charge, contrary to the dsmash.
- The muzzle hitbox of side-B pushes the foe into the tip hitbox which has all the knockback.
- There is a blind spot where an enemy can stand and not get hit by the side-B, approximately one half the distance between ZSS and the tip of the attack.
- The spike version of the dsmash (at the beginning of the kick) is among the top 10 strongest spikes in the game, especially at lower percentages. It has less KGR than many other spikes, but it will still kill earlier.
- The grounded 9% hit of dsmash is very rare to see, it occurs on ZSS’s thigh in the last frames of the move.
- Up-B has 5 hitboxes and two of them spike. Spiking hitboxed have different effects when they hit a foe on the ground: they pop the foe up into the air. The 5% spiking hit occurs as the tip of the whip rises and the 6% spike occurs at the apex.
- From the ground, up-B will send the foe upwards, drag them back down, and do 15% damage if everything connects properly. This happens until knockback becomes too high and they escape the last hit. This occurs between 400% and 411% depending on how close you are to the enemy.

MISCELLANEOUS

NOTES
- Glide tossing doesn’t appear to have any effect on damage or knockback of the armour parts. It counts as a strong throw.
- The final smash does up to seven hits, but each of the earlier hits seem to do next to 0% damage, and just suck enemies into the final 25% hit.


FRAME DATA

Jab combo
Total Frames: ??
Hitbox out on Frame: 1

Dash Attack
Total Frames: 31
Hitbox out on Frame: 6

Ftilt:
Total Frames: 28
Hitbox out on Frame: 6

Dtilt:
Total Frames: 25
Hitbox out on Frame: 5

Utilt:
Total Frames: 45
Hitbox 1 out on Frame: 3
Hitbox 2 out on Frame: ??

Fsmash:
Total Frames: 65
Hitbox (front) out on Frame: 20
Hitbox (back) out on Frame: ??

Dsmash:
Total Frames: 35
Hitbox out on Frame: 20

Usmash:
Total Frames: 45
Hitbox out on Frame: 8

Nair:
Total Frames: ??
Hitbox out on Frame: 6
Landing Lag: 10

Uair:
Total Frames: ??
Hitbox out on Frame: 4
Landing Lag: 9

Bair:
Total Frames: ??
Hitbox out on Frame: 8
Landing Lag: 9

Fair:
Total Frames: ??
Hitbox 1 out on Frame: 6
Hitbox 2 out on Frame: 16
Landing Lag: 16

Dair:
Total Frames: Until you land (for all intents and purposes)
Hitbox 1 out on Frame: 14
Hitbox 2 out on Landing
Landing Lag: 40

Nspecial:
Total Frames: ??
Baby hitbox out on frame: 21
Charged hitbox out on frame: ??

Fspecial:
Total Frames: 43
Hitbox 1 out on Frame: 24
Hitbox 2 out on Frame: 33

Dspecial:
Total Frames: 50
Invulnerable: 1-12
Flipstool on frame: 19
Hitbox out on frame: 27

Uspecial:
Total Frames: 43
Hitbox 1 out on Frame: 6

Grab Total Frames: ??
Standing Grab hitbox out on Frame: 16
Dash Grab hitbox out on Frame: 17
Pivot Grab hitbox out on Frame: 17

Spot Dodge
Total Frames: 25
Invincible on Frames: 2-20

Back Roll
Total Frames: 37
Invincible on Frames: 4-19

Forward Roll
Total Frames: 27
Invincible on Frames: 4-15

Air Dodge
Total Frames: 39
Invincible on Frames: 4-29

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL THANKS

ph00tbag for gathering knockback data and help with the rest.
3GOD for gathering frame data.
FadedImage for improved knockback data on the up-B.
MrSilver for the knockback formula and other useful information.

 

[doctorjuice]

Wow nice research, how'd you test all this anyway?

 

[DeliciousCake]

Ah, never realized that there were two separate hitboxes on her legs. Well, that's sexiness for ya.

 

[Adapt]

This is all tested by going to training mode, FD, and having a comp mario set as "control"

Then hitting with different parts of all the moves at different damages and looking for the percentage at which mario dies

Ah, never realized that there were two separate hitboxes on her legs.

I noticed that the fair and bair did different damages sometimes so I kept hitting with different areas until I found where they came from

Well, that's sexiness for ya.

Yep

 

[doctorjuice]

lol what cake said. Hmm I always thought fair had more knockback. Now bair pwns it completely XD

 

[ph00tbag]

This is something that I started because me and ph00tbag debating whether the fair (2nd hit) or the bair had more knockback. For the record he was right and I was wrong. I looked around for a definitive kill percentage list for ZSS but I couldn't find one so I created my own. I hope someone can find this useful..

Heh. I actually did this several months ago, but never posted, because I did it as part of a potential guide, and there already was one.

I'm actually working on some base knockback research right now. Maybe I can PM it to you when I'm done, and we can consolidate it into one post.

Also, you're missing some data:
-Dtilt has two hitboxes with different trajectories, but the same knockback and damage.
-Usmash's middle hits actually do 1.x damage charged. That's why it looks like some do 2 and some do 1.
-Uair has a late hitbox that does 7 damage.
-Dair's hitboxes do different damage and knockback depending on whether your opponent is air born when they connect. Hit 1 spikes and does 5% on airborne foes, and has set knockback with 4% on grounded foes. Hit 2 does 5% in both cases, but KOs grounded foes at aroun 347%, and airborne foes at 262%
-Flip Jump Kick, from what I can tell, does the same damage and knockback to grounded foes regardless of timing. It does 9% with lower knockback on airborne foes. It spikes if it connects anywhere on Zamus' body on the first frame.

 

[Adapt]

Heh. I actually did this several months ago, but never posted, because I did it as part of a potential guide, and there already was one.

I'm actually working on some base knockback research right now. Maybe I can PM it to you when I'm done, and we can consolidate it into one post.

OK, that sounds good. I'll add any related information to the topic if anyone else has some too.

 

[fkacyan]

Excellent work, el capitan.

Now, if only we could get some frame data for all her moves, rolls, dodges, etc.

 

[Cynan Machae]

Good work, good work.

Fsmash is way more complex than I thought

 

[Adapt]

Also, you're missing some data:
-Dtilt has two hitboxes with different trajectories, but the same knockback and damage.
-Usmash's middle hits actually do 1.x damage charged. That's why it looks like some do 2 and some do 1.
-Uair has a late hitbox that does 7 damage.
-Dair's hitboxes do different damage and knockback depending on whether your opponent is air born when they connect. Hit 1 spikes and does 5% on airborne foes, and has set knockback with 4% on grounded foes. Hit 2 does 5% in both cases, but KOs grounded foes at aroun 347%, and airborne foes at 262%
-Flip Jump Kick, from what I can tell, does the same damage and knockback to grounded foes regardless of timing. It does 9% with lower knockback on airborne foes. It spikes if it connects anywhere on Zamus' body on the first frame.

dtilt - where is the second hitbox that hits at the ~60 degree angle located? I have heard about it but I kept getting the same kill percentage when i hit closer to the body too
Usmash - thanks, I'll add that in as a note
uair - is that the very tip of her feet at the end? I know CF's uair has something like that
dair - you can get 2 different hits on grounded foes, depending on whether you hit them on the head or near their feet. Those are the two I mentioned.
dspecial - both of the damages I listed are on grounded opponents. It's hard to get the 9% hit, but it's possible. I'll add the airborn 9% knockback soon though

I didn't add any info on spikes yet, I have a bit of trouble testing that by myself. I will say that the flip-jump spike is between Ike's dair and Snake's fair in power.


The frame data wouldn't be a bad addition to this topic, but we already have some of it, and it is beyond me to find out the rest of it.

 

[ph00tbag]

dtilt - Try standing as close as you can before dtilting. Like I said, the knockback power is exactly the same, so that might account for some of your confusion, but you should notice the difference almost immediately. The toe is straight up, and the thigh is at a very apparent angle.
uair - Yes, it's at the very tip of her feet. Hard to get to at times.
dair - I guess, then that there's a toe and thigh hitbox like fair, bair, dtilt and utilt. The toe spikes and does 5%. The thigh does 4%, but I couldn't really tell you if it spikes from what you're telling me. The second hitboxes must be at her head and feet, respectively. I can say without a doubt that I've gotten both 10% and 9% from testing this move.
dspecial - Weird. I've never gotten the 9% hitbox on the ground. Must be just before the hitbox comes back in.

Also, with regards to testing airborne attacks and their power, I'd suggest using Slow Brawl, and making your test subject jump, then working it out there. I can't tell you how to test spike power, except through my method, though. Basically, you'd test it at several percents, graph the "max launch speed" shown in the stats at the end against percent, and from the trendline determine base knockback and knockback growth rate. This is based on Mr. Silver's research.

 

[Adapt]

The way I understand dair, it has 2 separate attacks (which may or may not have 2 hitboxes like the bair)
The second attack only comes out as you touch the ground (similar to the wind coming from TLink's dair)

If the enemy is at a high enough percent and on the ground you can hit with only the first attack, or only the second attack (doing 4% for the first and 5% for the second). Which hit connects is dependent on how close you are to the ground when you hit them.

I will look into the first attack doing 5% at times and try to discover where this occurs


EDIT: the OP has been updated to add in relative strength of spikes, the differing hits of dtilt, the special aerial only hitboxes of the dspecial and dair, as well at the tip hitbox of the uair

 

[ph00tbag]

My knockback data has been showing me an interesting thing: The "sweetspot" for an uncharged Fsmash and the sourspot for a charged one both do the same damage, base knockback, knockback growth rate and KO%, meaning they are essentially the same. I think the uncharged "sweetspot" is essentially the same hitbox as the sourspot and doesn't undergo the effect of charging, like the tipper and rear hitboxes. In effect, the sourspot is a sweetspot when uncharged.

 

[Adapt]

I had guessed that they were the exact same, but I didn't have the proof, thanks for confirming. I'll change it to reflect this info.

What a messed up move the Fsmash is... when you charge it, the only thing that changes is that the sourspot gets more knockback and becomes the strongest part of the move

 

[Arma_]

Huh, interesting. I didn't even realize the fsmash had a sweetspot since I use it so little. Maybe it will have its uses afterall, it seems to kill at a decent percent. Thanks for this!

 

[Bouse]

Side B is still better.

 

[Adapt]

Updated today with better formatting. Tonight or tomorrow I will be making use of the better formatting to include knockback data contributed by ph00tbag.

 

[Arma_]

Side B is still better.

Indeed, but side b is hard to hit out of a dsmash. Plus, I like to use my side b for spacing occasionally so sometimes it gets a bit stale. I know side b is better overall, but fsmash has its (limited) uses.

 

[Adapt]

Updated with knockback data as I mentioned yesterday.

Does anyone know how to measure hitstun. I think that would be a useful addition. I was actually looking into this a week or 2 ago when I found out that our jab combo is counted as consecutive hits on a few characters. How do you know when exactly hitstun ends?

I know it is both character and damage dependent as well as move dependent of course. Maybe it would be too difficult.

Frame data is something else that might be worth adding. I know DeliciousCake has some on an external site, but it is incomplete.

Do you mind if I add what you have done Cake?

 

[smaci92]

Wow that must have taken some time to figure out and write down...thanks! very useful

 

[TheRockSays]

Like i avoid trying to use side b till my opponent is weak enough. and my back air as much as possible.

 

[FadedImage]

Hey Adapt, I'd like to join in on this. I did a lot of this type of research earlier to write my guide, found here: http://www.allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=11107. It's not done yet, but the moveset data is there.

Question, what exactly are you considering "Knockback" to be here? Because I know that U-Air does not send an opponent as far as a B-Air. And you have the knockback on B-Air lower than the knockback on F-Air, but B-Air has a lower kill percent, even though they send opponents at approximately the same angle.

As for hitstun, I believe the moment you are able to double-jump, that should be considered the end of your hitstun. I think there are two forms of hitstun in Brawl now, interruptible and un-interruptible. During interruptible hitstun, you can perform airdodges or attacks to end the hitstun early. However, during un-interruptible hitstun, you can't do anything. Only after you are out of hitstun can you perform a double-jump. I think.

As for measuring it? That would be pretty **** tough. But you could probably at least approximate some values if you had some people to help you.

 

[Adapt]

For the knockback data, you will have to question ph00tbag. He gathered it and sent it to me.

I think what he did is:
go into special brawl, hit mario with the move.
quit and record the "launcher speed" This is the Knockback at 13% for bair.
Then go back and make it 300% damage, and do the same.
Using the speed at 313% minus the speed at 13% and divide by 300 to get the growth rate
then you can work backwards with the growth rate to find the knockback at 0%

I just tested it with bair/uair and his numbers check out. For your opponent at less than 17% damage bair will knock them back less. I have got a chain of 2 bairs before, so I believe it.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think what he did is:
go into special brawl, hit mario with the move.
quit and record the "launcher speed" This is the Knockback at 13% for bair.
Then go back and make it 300% damage, and do the same.
Using the speed at 313% minus the speed at 13% and divide by 300 to get the growth rate
then you can work backwards with the growth rate to find the knockback at 0%

This is fairly close. I actually did something a tad more rigorous, and recorded knockbacks at six different percents. This was really unnecessary after the second trial, but I figured it would help keep things precise.

If you really look at the KB for fair and bair, you'll find that the latter actually has a somewhat lower trajectory than the former, and the latter also has a higher KGR than the former, so it gets stronger faster. Their knockback crosses over at 77% for Mario, and after that, bair is stronger. In fact, at 127%, bair sends opponents at 6192.542 mph and fair sends them at 6029.4 mph. Since bair is both stronger, and sends people at a lower trajectory, it KOs earlier.

And knockback is not a distance, it is a speed. Two different characters with different fall physics will go different distances if knocked at the same speed. I forgo the confusion of basing it off of distance. In the case of uair and bair, uair will always knock people less distance than bair, because bair doesn't have gravity acting against it. Uair is also much, much weaker than bair, if you look at its KGR.

 

[FadedImage]

Ahh I see. When I did my tests, I based knockback on a combination of distance and hitstun (I approximated the distance traveled before a player was able to double-jump). So it would make sense that the results would differ. I wonder if there is any way to quantify the frames/time of hitstun and find out how much it differs on each attack (if it even does).

 

[Adapt]

Ahh I see. When I did my tests, I based knockback on a combination of distance and hitstun (I approximated the distance traveled before a player was able to double-jump). So it would make sense that the results would differ. I wonder if there is any way to quantify the frames/time of hitstun and find out how much it differs on each attack (if it even does).

Histun depends on a bunch of different things. You won't be able to get a set value for any one move.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182821

Different characters react differently to the same move at the same percentage.

I don't think it is possible to quantify because there is something else missing in the equation that is not info that we have

 

[ph00tbag]

Ahh I see. When I did my tests, I based knockback on a combination of distance and hitstun (I approximated the distance traveled before a player was able to double-jump). So it would make sense that the results would differ. I wonder if there is any way to quantify the frames/time of hitstun and find out how much it differs on each attack (if it even does).

I'm with Adapt. Using hitstun just adds another variable, and is very tough to measure accurately. It also relies too heavily on measuring what occurs after the hit, so you get a skewed image of how much power the move has.

 

[FadedImage]

I didn't mean to say that I think we should replace the current system with the hitstun dependent system, I just meant it would be a good figure to have.

Also, I think your Knockback figures are all a tinsy bit off. When you do an absolutely fresh attack in Brawl, you actually deal 105% of the attack's damage. Take U-Air for instance, a purely fresh hit will actually deal 10.5%, the 0.5% is just invisible. This is me just nitpicking though.

To actually contribute:
So far, I've only tested two moves (U-Air and B-Air) but the results seem to conclude that base knockback does not change with stale move degeneration. However, the KGR decreases at a similar exponential rate to that of damage. From what I can tell, both the U-Air and the B-Air followed this curve, having a similar decay rate. What does this mean? That degeneration isn't move dependent, which means I actually just contributed nothing... ):

 

[smallwolf24]

Wow this shows great statistics thanks for the info

 

[Taalcon]

Can someone explain to me what KGR is?

 

[Adapt]

a = knockback growth rate (KGR)

It is mentioned in the first post




EDIT: added the angle at which the move will send an opponent. (No DI) When I have the time I plan to add the variation that DI can have on the knockback angle. I am unsure about SDI though

 

[ph00tbag]

I didn't mean to say that I think we should replace the current system with the hitstun dependent system, I just meant it would be a good figure to have.

Also, I think your Knockback figures are all a tinsy bit off. When you do an absolutely fresh attack in Brawl, you actually deal 105% of the attack's damage. Take U-Air for instance, a purely fresh hit will actually deal 10.5%, the 0.5% is just invisible. This is me just nitpicking though.

Well, then this would mean that the damage done by any move is actually 10(2x ± 1)/21, where x is the percent shown on-screen. This means that the base knockback will be different from the one given by a(x ± 10)/21. Now, aside from Zamus' FS, her most damaging single hitbox apparently does 16% and has a KGR of 32.1. This means that this move could have a base knockback 39.7 to 9.17 mph less than the one given. Since the base knockback of this move is 2393.4, the difference is between 1.64% and 0.383 % of the base knockback. That's not very significant, IMO.

Alternately, we could look at the move with the highest KGR: 38.037, doing 14%. This gives a difference from 43.471 to 7.2451. The move has a base knockback of 1517.4, making the difference between 2.8648% and 0.47747%. The higher difference is possibly a concern, but if the actual damage turns out to be 13.80952381, I'm really not interested in finding the chart for that.

It's a valid concern, but when you really examine the math here, KGR is much, much more important to the strength of a move than the base knockback, and since the latter is all that changes in light of this, and then not by much, I'm not bothered by it.

To actually contribute:
So far, I've only tested two moves (U-Air and B-Air) but the results seem to conclude that base knockback does not change with stale move degeneration. However, the KGR decreases at a similar exponential rate to that of damage. From what I can tell, both the U-Air and the B-Air followed this curve, having a similar decay rate. What does this mean? That degeneration isn't move dependent, which means I actually just contributed nothing... ):

Actually, it's something worth looking into. I, myself have wondered if knockback (and damage) degeneration is move dependant or constant. Your results seem to indicate that it is constant. I think it's very significant, also that base knockback is not affected by move decay, but rather only KGR is.

We should make a post on Tactical Discussion about this stuff, since we're starting to examine some parts of the programming that are more general than just Zamus.

 

[FadedImage]

That's not very significant, IMO.

I know, I just thought you should know. d:

Actually, it's something worth looking into. I, myself have wondered if knockback (and damage) degeneration is move dependant or constant. Your results seem to indicate that it is constant. I think it's very significant, also that base knockback is not affected by move decay, but rather only KGR is.

I haven't gotten around to testing it in depth, but already I ran into an anomaly. ZSS's f-tilt actually decays significantly less (U-Air and B-Air were around 51% strength, while the tilt was around 57% strength). Perhaps it is move based, or more likely: a move with higher knockback will decay more. That would make sense, since B-Air actually decayed to 51.01%, while U-Air decayed to 52.79%.

We should make a post on Tactical Discussion about this stuff, since we're starting to examine some parts of the programming that are more general than just Zamus.

I agree. Once I'm finished with the research, I'll send you all the data?

 

[Snakeee]

Wow really good stuff. First thing I noticed that kinda bothered me though was that you said the jab combo was only useful against a couple of characters. ZSS' jab yes has crap priority, BUT it's 1 frame and extremely fast. You can usually even interrupt when someone shield grabs the jab combo with another jab combo.

Anyway I'm surprised I never realized that the down B and B air are actually stronger than the forward B. Lots of good bits of info here.
EDIT: Actually sorry but some of this is questionable to me. I refuse to believe that up air and forward B have the same kill power >_>.

 

[ph00tbag]

I haven't gotten around to testing it in depth, but already I ran into an anomaly. ZSS's f-tilt actually decays significantly less (U-Air and B-Air were around 51% strength, while the tilt was around 57% strength). Perhaps it is move based, or more likely: a move with higher knockback will decay more. That would make sense, since B-Air actually decayed to 51.01%, while U-Air decayed to 52.79%.

That's possible. Maybe the final calculation for knockback is actually a function of the ad/m part of the formula, which would account for KGR having an impact. Although move based would also make sense because of moves like nair, which do not decay.

I agree. Once I'm finished with the research, I'll send you all the data?

Me or Adapt. I'm thinking more just a thread about methods and the formulae we've derived, and I think Adapt knows better how he got the angles. If Adapt is willing to send me his methods for finding angles (if it's a protractor to the TV screen, then lmao), then I'll gladly put it all together and put it up in Tactical.

Wow really good stuff. First thing I noticed that kinda bothered me though was that you said the jab combo was only useful against a couple of characters. ZSS' jab yes has crap priority, BUT it's 1 frame and extremely fast. You can usually even interrupt when someone shield grabs the jab combo with another jab combo.

What adapt is saying is that the jab combo's knockback and hitstun are such that it only actually combos about three characters. No one disputes jab's speed, but the full combo's rather useless.

Anyway I'm surprised I never realized that the down B and B air are actually stronger than the forward B. Lots of good bits of info here.
EDIT: Actually sorry but some of this is questionable to me. I refuse to believe that up air and forward B have the same kill power >_>.

Actually, Plasma Whip is without question Zamus' strongest move. It just knocks opponents at a 45 degree angle, which is horrible for KOing. Flip Jump, bair and fair all have much better trajectories, so they kill earlier. I don't know about uair, though. I have a different KO% in my own findings. It may mean a different method.

 

[Adapt]

The kill % for uair is from on one of the platforms in BF, Did you get your percentage from the ground ph00tbag? I'll see if I can make it hit properly on the ground.


Also about the jab: I never said it was useless, but maybe I should add in a bit about switching it up with jab cancels and tilts so you don't get predictable and therefor punished

Edit #1:
Oops, missed what you said about the angles. The angles are not exact yet there is prolly a 3 degree error on several. I did a bit of rounding. And lol all you want... it was by far the easiest way.


EDIT #2: Kill percentages for uair on battlefield

The stronger 10% hit:
145% on the floor level
133% on the side platform
121% on the top platform

The weaker 7% hit:
230% on the floor level
215% on the side platform
199% on the top platform

Which one should I enter? or maybe all 3... Normally when you use uair you are the height of the top platform if not above it. That is why I went with the kill % that I did. But thinking about it now, it would prolly be better to use the ground level one to be in line with the rest of the upwards kill percentages. What do you guys think?

 

[ph00tbag]

The uairs on the floor of BF are closer to what I get. I just did falling uairs on FD, though. It works pretty well for determining KO percents. As far as the usefulness in the realm of knowing when a move could kill, then I leave the final decision up to you. I chose the results I did for the sake of cohesiveness, but informativeness is another valid concern here.

 

[Adapt]

I added in some stuff about the jab combo and uair in the notes.

ph00tbag I have a question for you.
If you look at the knockback velocity for fair, bair and the strong grounded hit of dspecial you get a value of approximately 6175 mph at the killing percentage. Example: strong bair - 127*35.646 + 1665.5 = 6192.542 mph

but look at the knockback data for the late aerial dspecial: 162*11.726 + 1232.3 = 3131.912 mph WTF?

How can it be only 1/2 the knockback and yet still kill? I checked your knockback data myself just in case you made a mistake, but I get very nearly the same as you. (11.733 & 1232.8) I also rechecked my killing percentage but that is fine too. I can't think of an explanation for it.

 

[ph00tbag]

Maybe late aerial dspecial has a lower trajectory? I've honestly got nothing. Generally something shouldn't be killing at 3132 mph. That's weird, and it'll have to bear some scrutiny.

 

[Adapt]

Simple geometry says the trajectory can't be the issue. Even if the angle of the bair was 45 degrees (it's less) and the trajectory of the dspecial was 0 (its more) The horizontal components would be 1.414 times larger, not 2 times.


In the mean time, I am gonna look through the list and see if there are any other moves that are like this. If I can find a pattern I may be able to calculate the exact trajectory angle of all moves using a 90 degree (for killing out the top) and a 45 degree move (for killing out the side) as the baselines.


EDIT: I figured it out - When you are in slow brawl dspecial has some weird properties. Do it in regular brawl/sudden death

Here are my new results, can you confirm?

Late aerial:

2676 at 9%
9717 at 309%

KGR: 23.47
Base: 2464.77

Spike: (early aerial)

2931 at 12%
12907 at 312%

KGR: 33.253
Base: 2531.96

and for comparison purposes: Bair

bair:
2129 at 13%
12822 at 313%

KGR: 35.643
base: 1665.64