IMPORTANT NOTICE: Only Marth and PK Trainer can infinite Grab Ness! ~

[Earthbound360]

Thank goodness. Now to spread the word.

 

[Levitas]

lol, that is the point of this thread after all.

I'm severly dissappointed in brawl. I'm thinking that competitive 64 has more depth by far at this point. Certainly much more depth than the marth vs Ness matchup. (Don't mention the DK cargo grab in 64, lol)

 

[Ulevo]

lol, that is the point of this thread after all.

I'm severly dissappointed in brawl. I'm thinking that competitive 64 has more depth by far at this point. Certainly much more depth than the marth vs Ness matchup. (Don't mention the DK cargo grab in 64, lol)

I originally thought so too, and ended up closing my Chain Grab thread simply because I didn't want to deal with it anymore. But honestly, you need to look at the game in a different perspective and have fun with it regardless in order to realize what this game has to offer competitively. Many pros find this game frustrating because a lot of tech skill that they try to invest doesn't go as far as a sharp mind does (there is nothing wrong with tech skill, mind you). This game isn't about rehearsing moves or combos in training mode to kill your opponents, it's about being on your toes, on the fly, mind games, spacing, and the basics of Smash, which is what it should be. I also believe that advanced techniques are even more vital now then they've ever been, because now that we no longer have universal tactics that every character can use, it is that much more important to have a leg up on your opponent. Hydroplaning with Squirtle, Cape Gliding with Mario, B-Sticking with Lucas, the Mortar Slide with Snake, and others... These little things add up to an interesting game in a pool of basic and yet complex game play.

That is what keeps me interested. If you want to see what I mean, check this video out. It's not a combo video, merely a compilation of some good matches that just rock hard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n26RZd8nzeQ

Also, if you want more inspiration than that, check out ANY video of Sethlon, a Falco player. He is my current inspirational player, and is to me, the Bombsoldier of Brawl.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Because I've seen a lot of people actually saying "This isn't like DeDeDe's chaingrab or wobbling" and actively saying that those things shouldn't be banned. Anyone who wants to ban them all however, well, at least you're consistent and not a hypocrite.

Now I've been saying all along that this can't be banned, but you seriously need to caaallm down and actually address peoples posts rather than argue just to argue.

If someone made the statement "All infinite release grabs should be banned" how is that hypocritical? They never claimed to not want them banned. You're putting words into people's mouths. Just because they didn't care about regular chain grabs or wobbling doesn't mean anything. By not being against those, they never claimed not to be against infinite release grabs. Even if it is the "same" thing in your mind, in our minds it is not the same thing, so it is not hypocritical of us to be for one thing or against the other. It is just a matter of disagreement, not hypocriticality. (If that is a word)

It's like if apples and oranges both tasted the same to me (lets just say I have some crazy weird, messed up taste buds) and you said you liked apples and didn't like oranges, I call you a hypocrite for liking one of them despite both tasting the same. It's not hypocritical because to the OTHER person they taste different. This is really the same situation here. You need to realize that to us it is not the same. So you arguement should be "It's the same thing" rather than claiming people are hypocrites, which is stupid and getting you nowhere.

So really, stick to arguing the point and not being obsessed with calling people hypocrites.

And to the point of CPU's escaping - people have addressed this, but if the CPU can escape so can you - because it's not like they are using those godlike powers to get out. They are DIing and rolling or side dodging away. It's not like they are power shielding or instant reacting to stuff and a human having to match that, the way the CPU is getting out of these grabs is something that humans are capable of too. The CPU gets out of everyone besides PT and Marth's grabs INCREDIBLY easily, and can even sometimes get out of Marth's grabs.

 

[Yuna]

Now I've been saying all along that this can't be banned, but you seriously need to caaallm down and actually address peoples posts rather than argue just to argue.

You should try reading the posts you quote before replying to them.

If someone made the statement "All infinite release grabs should be banned" how is that hypocritical? They never claimed to not want them banned. You're putting words into people's mouths. Just because they didn't care about regular chain grabs or wobbling doesn't mean anything. By not being against those, they never claimed not to be against infinite release grabs. Even if it is the "same" thing in your mind, in our minds it is not the same thing, so it is not hypocritical of us to be for one thing or against the other. It is just a matter of disagreement, not hypocriticality. (If that is a word)

It's not about what it is in "your mind", it's about facts. DeDeDe's chaingrab on a lot of people (all of them if it's against a wall) and 5 in particular is as broken as this as it allows him to do the exact same thing. Only on DK, it's truly an infinite that will work up to 999%.

These are the facts. DeDeDe's chaingrabs yields the same results as this and is done from a grab, just like this. If you want to ban this, you must want to ban DeDeDe's chaingrab as well without being a hypocrite.

I don't care what you "think". The facts don't care what you "think". The facts care about what the facts are.

Some of these infinites I brought up actually require a wall so I can kinda see people differentiating between the two. DeDeDe's chaingrab on DK, the exact same thing.

Stuff.

Bad analogy.

So really, stick to arguing the point and not being obsessed with calling people hypocrites.

Why? The facts are clear.

 

[Conda]

Yuna's better than everyone here. We get it.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I tested this grab with marth, and ness was a computer, somtimes when he got released from it the computer somhow got him to float at 45 degree angle, i was wondering if this is a way to escape or is it the computer cheating somehow, if you dont believe me just try it a whole bunch, if you have an answer please tell

 

[hoopspr226]

I tested this grab with marth, and ness was a computer, somtimes when he got released from it the computer somhow got him to float at 45 degree angle, i was wondering if this is a way to escape or is it the computer cheating somehow, if you dont believe me just try it a whole bunch, if you have an answer please tell

It's been discussed. Read the thread.

What you are experiencing is known as a jump break, and ness/lucas cannot escape via this method if the marth mashes A fast enough.

 

[thesage]

So... can any characters follow up with an attack? Can snake do an f-tilt after a grab release on Ness?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

So... can any characters follow up with an attack? Can snake do an f-tilt after a grab release on Ness?

Yes, he can do that every time.

He can't chain grab you and then do it as I originally thought though...

 

[PK-ow!]

This is one thing I laugh at -- the unwillingness to not have brawl's metagame revolve around 5 characters.

In this case, it's not even about Ness underperforming. He's a fine character. But one stupid exploit is bringing him back down.
And people, like Yuna, like this. It's like an artificial way to create bottom tiers in the better-balanced brawl.

We know how things were in melee. We're fine that they ended up like that because of how good each character is.
However, characters rising and falling because of inescapable exploits is ridiculous and shouldn't be preferred, even if it happened in X game. Exploiting Ness's grab-release gayness should be considered for bannage, even if it takes time for it to come through. I really don't care that melee had strongly seperated tier lists, or that some other fighting games revolve around infinites. You can be conservative somewhere else.

This is the crucial point. And what's wrong with this statement is that there's no principled distinction between the way characters were separated in Melee, and the way that certain characters in Brawl can beat other ones in Brawl easily. It is just a make-up of the characters' properties, that the one is a counter to the other.

What Yuna is saying (although not clearly) is that there is no principled distinction. Saying Brawl's inequities are unlike Melee's inequities and heralding action taken to undo or reverse Brawl's "artificial, stupid, gay ridiculousness" is borne of a confusion not unlike the delusion that something strange one has experienced as he awoke is "completely different" from a dream. If it is as impossible to resolve to fact as a dream, and was experienced as uncertainly as a dream, and is as unverifiable as a hallucination, you're just mistaken that you can tell anyone it's different. Fortunately, such convictions subside once one is awake and fed. Sometimes people will go on with contradictory opinions, like denouncing RTSs, except loving Warcraft, or despising chilled desserts, but gorging strawberry ice cream, saying their favored exception is "completely different" but really it's not.

As a simple computer program, Melee and Brawl, it is in equal degree a thing in the program itself that it is possible for a Melee game with Melee Marth and [pretty much anyone] to come to a quick and easy resolution (via [specification of the Ken combo on the program level]), as it is that a game of Brawl with Brawl Marth and Brawl Ness can proceed with the formal token manipulations corresponding to "grab infinites" occurring on the program level. The totality of the game, at which any formal system such as a computer program must be understood, doesn't know the difference - it is simply a property of it that either sequence of events is possible.

As is usually the case with such confusions, the distinction is imagined into existence by improperly attending to the level we construct to understand the symbol manipulations. But in both games, the characters have properties which allow (make possible; formally cause) them to be used to beat others.

To get this to be treated differently, you have to appeal to another level of description, and all you have is the part where we want a competitive game. You aren't going to get anywhere saying these are "cheap" and abuse "perfectly okay" characters - at least, not until you first acknowledge that the onus is on you to show why these 'exploits' are different from others. The character is what it is; what you think are the essential features are imagined, put on top of the bare formal rules of the game.

 

[Conda]

In the future, when people constantly abuse Ness and Lucas's grab-release lag to fsmash or ftilt (snake), I imagine this debate will be revitalized.

 

[thesage]

>_>; I wouldn't mind dealing with that as it doesn't destroy them. Besides, other characters have things far worse to deal with (Luigi or Wario vs. MK lol).

 

[Wyvern]

So only DeDeDe can chaingrab some people into infinity, the only one of which he can do this against indefnitely is Donkey Kong. This means that even the most skilled Donkey Kong player is going to be up against pretty steep odds the minute a decent DeDeDe player goes up against them. Boo hoo. It's still a pretty much 10-0 matchup.

Ness and Lucas were originally thought to be gimped by 9 characters. Greater numbers, yeah. But since when do we ban techniques solely because they make a small number of characters (1-2-maybe 5) competitive unviable?! The banlist isn't there to make the game more balanced (more on this later) or ensure Competitive viability against the most characters.

[...]

No, we don't ban things because without the ban, two, three or maybe even five characters would become Competitively useless because they'd be up against 10-0 or so odds. We ban them for the following things (and others):
They unbalance the game so much that Competitive play will literally revolve around that one character or 2-3 others + that one character. As in not just that those 1-4 characters are the ones to most consistently win tournaments but as in that only those 1-4 characters stand even a chance of doing so.

The game is inherently imbalanced. Some people have some really broken ****. Some of these are character-specific. Live with it, learn to either work around it (no matter how unfair it is) or switch mains.

I'm sure I'm just going to get myself chewed out for disagreeing with the great and powerful Yuna, but I'm going for it anyway because I'd like to understand this perspective better.

I've never understood why stuff like this shouldn't be banned. And by "stuff like this", I mean grab infinites that that will kill from any percentage, are 100% unescapable once started, require zero setup (just any grab, regardless of percentages or location), and only work on a very small list of specific characters. So yes, that also includes Dedede's five or however many standing infinites (though possibly not Ice Climber stuff...their chaingrabs affect all characters equally, there's an extra chance at prevention in the form of separating the Ice Climbers, and crazy grab stuff is sort of their whole deal...I'm not going to try to form an opinion on them with my current limited knowledge).

The presence of this particular grab infinite (just for the sake of an example, and assuming that no means of escaping it crops up) means that it's essentially impossible for Ness to win a tournament. There are a lot of Marths out there; every Ness is bound to bump into one in the brackets eventually, and when they do, it's an instant loss. No matter how good you are, you're not going to beat someone when all they have to do to win is grab you three times.

So, there are two options.

Option 1: The infinites are banned. You are left with a game where there is no Marth-on-Ness infinite grab.

Option 2: The infinites are not banned. But you are still left with a game where there is no Marth-on-Ness infinite grab, because there is also no Ness, because nobody is going to play him.

Where is the benefit in Option 2? What would be ONE example of how the game is better for choosing it? How is removing an otherwise viable character from the game and replacing him with a bye good for strategy, or competition, or...anything? You say that a tactic that makes only 1-4 characters viable would be broken, but your stance on these character-specific infinites basically boils down to the idea that less characters are outright better than more characters, as long as it doesn't quite go down to that 1-4. I don't get it.

 

[PKboy89]

yup, lets just ban good characters now. Thats right, everyone has to use a character who has no advantages from now on, lets ban Ness' backthrow cause its pretty much a automatic ko at around 130, or D3's forward smash cause it kills at like...20 percent, lets just all attempt to make this game perfectly balanced so that everyone can be happy, because I'm just not good enough to deal with character match ups...

I'm being sarcastic by the way...-_-

 

[Wyvern]

yup, lets just ban good characters now. Thats right, everyone has to use a character who has no advantages from now on, lets ban Ness' backthrow cause its pretty much a automatic ko at around 130, or D3's forward smash cause it kills at like...20 percent, lets just all attempt to make this game perfectly balanced so that everyone can be happy, because I'm just not good enough to deal with character match ups...

I'm being sarcastic by the way...-_-

Yeah, Ness's backthrow is an automatic KO at 130, not zero. You have to actually, you know, earn the 130% by fighting for it. And Dedede's forward smash doesn't go off in a tiny fraction of a second and penetrate shields, does it? It's pretty rare to actually be able to land the forward smash, and requires pretty clever placement and a certain amount of avoidable error by the opponent. That's the only reason it has that kind of power. Compare that to how many grabs you see land in an average match against a skilled player. And then compare THAT to how many MORE grabs you'd see land if one of the players knew a grab would be a guaranteed KO at any percentage.

The character-specific infinites don't just give an advantage. They end the match with essentially no input even necessary from either player. The Ness practically loses by default without even a genuine chance to fight back. People are always talking about how Smash ought to be so competitive. What's competitive about ending a matchup after any three grabs with no need to actually fight?

The really important thing, though, is that the chaingrabs really don't follow from any particular property of the characters who can do them. It's not like it's just an extension of the positive properties of Marth's moveset that just so happen to be more effective on Ness than other characters. It's a highly specific trick that affects ONLY Ness and Lucas, and is totally irrelevant in any other matchup. The Marth just spends an afternoon practicing for the sole purpose of gaining the right to disqualify any Nesses or Lucases they see without spending the time actually besting them in combat. If someone came to you before the game was released and said, "We finished designing all the characters, but before the game is printed, we've decided to make it so that Marth's grabs do 100 times increased knockback on the Earthbound characters, KOing them instantly", would you agree that that would be a positive choice for the game? Could anyone?

And it's not like regulating it would be even remotely destructive to Marth's options, either. The most you could do is declare that Marth can't regrab Ness or Lucas more than X times immediately after breaking out. Nobody is stupid enough to try and regrab someone immediately after a breakout against any other character because of how ridiculously easy it would be to avoid, and nobody would have been stupid enough to try it on Ness and Lucas either if it wasn't for this annoying oversight. Since that's an action you would never take except because of this one situation, regulating that would have NO side effects on Marth's other combat options against Ness or Lucas, and it would have NO side effects on his combat options against any other character. It doesn't even totally remove the advantage--Marth would still have to be allowed to regrab at least once or twice and could use it as a chance to add some pummeling damage to his throws, and nothing can stop him from using another attack on Ness after he breaks out--but at least the Marth will have to do more than make any one single grab to get a KO. There would be at least a few opportunities for Ness to fight back, and Marth vs. Ness could still be an actual match instead of just a "let's laugh and see how high you can get my damage percentage on my first stock before I grab you three times" contest.

And I cannot stress enough the fact that Marth would never miss it, and he would never have to dance around the legitimate options he has worrying about avoiding getting arbitrarily disqualified. He just has to not deliberately do the infinite grab which, by all rights, shouldn't have existed in the first place. The same is true for Dedede.

 

[Yuna]

I'm sure I'm just going to get myself chewed out for disagreeing with the great and powerful Yuna, but I'm going for it anyway because I'd like to understand this perspective better.

I only chew people out when they're stupid. Simply refuting someone's arguments is not chewing them out. If you think so, then I suggest you visit your school's debate club.

I've never understood why stuff like this shouldn't be banned. And by "stuff like this", I mean grab infinites that that will kill from any percentage, are 100% unescapable once started, require zero setup (just any grab, regardless of percentages or location), and only work on a very small list of specific characters. So yes, that also includes Dedede's five or however many standing infinites (though possibly not Ice Climber stuff...their chaingrabs affect all characters equally, there's an extra chance at prevention in the form of separating the Ice Climbers, and crazy grab stuff is sort of their whole deal...I'm not going to try to form an opinion on them with my current limited knowledge).

So at least you're not a hypocrite. "Crazy grab stuff being their whole deal" = Crappy argument, the rest is kinda OK since you're consistent in that you want to ban it all.

The presence of this particular grab infinite (just for the sake of an example, and assuming that no means of escaping it crops up) means that it's essentially impossible for Ness to win a tournament. There are a lot of Marths out there; every Ness is bound to bump into one in the brackets eventually, and when they do, it's an instant loss. No matter how good you are, you're not going to beat someone when all they have to do to win is grab you three times.

Not good enough a reason.

Option 1: The infinites are banned. You are left with a game where there is no Marth-on-Ness infinite grab.

Option 2: The infinites are not banned. But you are still left with a game where there is no Marth-on-Ness infinite grab, because there is also no Ness, because nobody is going to play him.

Yes?

Where is the benefit in Option 2? What would be ONE example of how the game is better for choosing it? How is removing an otherwise viable character from the game and replacing him with a bye good for strategy, or competition, or...anything? You say that a tactic that makes only 1-4 characters viable would be broken, but your stance on these character-specific infinites basically boils down to the idea that less characters are outright better than more characters, as long as it doesn't quite go down to that 1-4. I don't get it.

I'm sorry, you must not have heard me the 29 first times.

Combos, strategies, infinites and characters are not banned to make the game more enjoyable or more fun or insure that no character gets totally screwed over in an almost-unwinnable matchup. They... just... aren't.

We ban things if they are so broken it's an auto-win for said character against anyone. This is why certain stages are banned. If a character were to arise with something so strong everyone would literally have to play as them or maybe 1-2 other characters to even stand a chance of winning, then we'll ban said thing (as a last resort: said character).

We will not ban things to ensure that no character gets super-gimped. Did you know that Game & Watch had a really hax chaingrab on the fastfallers? Did you know that NTSC Sheik could chaingrab a large portion of the cast (most of which ended up being low tiers)? We didn't ban Sheik or her dthrow althought it made certain of her matchups 10-0 or close to thereof.

We won't ban this just because it gimps Ness or Lucas. We would ban it if it gimped every single character in the game because then it'd be a matter of playing as Marth or Pokémon Trainer and getting the first grab in to win entire tournaments.

See the difference here? Don't make me tell you again. We do not change the game (i.e. ban things) to make it more enjoyable, more fun, diverse or whatever. We only ban as a last resort; when said tactic, combo, character, whatever, is so broken there's no way to win unless you do the exact same thing.

Simply gimping two characters (or in Yoshi's case, a few more) is not enough for a ban. If you want to play as Ness or Lucas, live with this infinite. That's what you get for choosing a character with really bad matchups.

Yeah, Ness's backthrow is an automatic KO at 130, not zero. You have to actually, you know, earn the 130% by fighting for it. And Dedede's forward smash doesn't go off in a tiny fraction of a second and penetrate shields, does it? It's pretty rare to actually be able to land the forward smash, and requires pretty clever placement and a certain amount of avoidable error by the opponent. That's the only reason it has that kind of power. Compare that to how many grabs you see land in an average match against a skilled player. And then compare THAT to how many MORE grabs you'd see land if one of the players knew a grab would be a guaranteed KO at any percentage.

Inconsequential.

The character-specific infinites don't just give an advantage. They end the match with essentially no input even necessary from either player. The Ness practically loses by default without even a genuine chance to fight back. People are always talking about how Smash ought to be so competitive. What's competitive about ending a matchup after any three grabs with no need to actually fight?

Yes, and? That's what you get for playing as Ness against Marth. It's a crappy matchup. Live with it.

The really important thing, though, is that the chaingrabs really don't follow from any particular property of the characters who can do them. It's not like it's just an extension of the positive properties of Marth's moveset that just so happen to be more effective on Ness than other characters. It's a highly specific trick that affects ONLY Ness and Lucas, and is totally irrelevant in any other matchup. The Marth just spends an afternoon practicing for the sole purpose of gaining the right to disqualify any Nesses or Lucases they see without spending the time actually besting them in combat. If someone came to you before the game was released and said, "We finished designing all the characters, but before the game is printed, we've decided to make it so that Marth's grabs do 100 times increased knockback on the Earthbound characters, KOing them instantly", would you agree that that would be a positive choice for the game? Could anyone?

Inconsequential. The game is broken. If you chose to play the game, play it. Ness is easily gimped. If you choose to play as him, live with it.

And it's not like regulating it would be even remotely destructive to Marth's options, either. The most you could do is declare that Marth can't regrab Ness or Lucas more than X times immediately after breaking out. Nobody is stupid enough to try and regrab someone immediately after a breakout against any other character because of how ridiculously easy it would be to avoid, and nobody would have been stupid enough to try it on Ness and Lucas either if it wasn't for this annoying oversight. Since that's an action you would never take except because of this one situation, regulating that would have NO side effects on Marth's other combat options against Ness or Lucas, and it would have NO side effects on his combat options against any other character. It doesn't even totally remove the advantage--Marth would still have to be allowed to regrab at least once or twice and could use it as a chance to add some pummeling damage to his throws, and nothing can stop him from using another attack on Ness after he breaks out--but at least the Marth will have to do more than make any one single grab to get a KO. There would be at least a few opportunities for Ness to fight back, and Marth vs. Ness could still be an actual match instead of just a "let's laugh and see how high you can get my damage percentage on my first stock before I grab you three times" contest.

It's in the game. We don't ban things for fun or to prevent gimpage. We ban things that are broken. Gimping just a few =/= Broken.

And did you just say this is just something something Marth can do on only Ness and Lucas and that's why it should be banned? Ever heard of chaingrabs? You obviously have. Most chaingrabs aren't universal but character-specific because of hitstun, sending angle and DI-ability. So should we ban all chaingrabs in existence (no matter how weak) because, hey, they work on only some characters and not against all?

And I cannot stress enough the fact that Marth would never miss it, and he would never have to dance around the legitimate options he has worrying about avoiding getting arbitrarily disqualified. He just has to not deliberately do the infinite grab which, by all rights, shouldn't have existed in the first place. The same is true for Dedede.

"It shouldn't have existed" - Wah wah wah. Sakurai is a crappy game designer who lets tons of stuff slip through the cracks, take it up with him. It's in the game now. According to the rules of Competitive fighting games, it stands.

 

[Superstar]

Its a good thing at least that only Marth and PT can infinite grab Ness, Ness still works in competitive play, you are just screwed if the opponent picks Marth [which I assume is a common thing].

This however shouldn't be banned. Ness mains have to deal with something other characters have. For example, Fox should NEVER face Pikachu. Pikachu can chaingrab Fox with his dthrow from 0-100%, and I haven't tested if he can finish with an Fthrow one for more damage. Its easy for Pikachu to get the chaingrab. Fox's make great use of their drills, and Pikachu can attempt to shieldgrab it. Pikachu is faster, has a good grab range, and good projectiles [you can't shine them all]. Once you get grabbed, you can't escape at all, and its not hard for Pikachu to do the chaingrab or even get the grab to start it.

I don't support that chaingrab being banned though. That's why I started learning secondaries.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Let's forget about whether it will be banned in tournaments or not, because I feel that this could affect a more casual setting (such as WiFi), with it being so simple to do, so it is a good thing that only two characters can truly infinite with it.

 

[PKboy89]

All I'm trying to say here...I'm sure what other people have been trying to say...is that Ness is flawed, and the game is not truly balanced, and no matter how many bans you put, it won't ever be...the infinite grab is not that bad...lets just stop this already and continue on with our smashing lives

 

[cHooKay]

Let's just put it like this, brawl is completely broken. Sakurai failed, I don't know how he could' ve had missed this one, especially when he knows that godly tier characters like marth and metaknight override the whole roster of brawl to useless. The fact that I can't win tourneys with one of my mains (ness) because of this broken grab release, sucks a lot...

 

[Conda]

Not. A. Big Deal. Dedede can **** 5 characters, and they haven't really budged in their placement. Just gotta CP and choose good stages.

 

[Smashbros_7]

>_>; I wouldn't mind dealing with that as it doesn't destroy them. Besides, other characters have things far worse to deal with (Luigi or Wario vs. MK lol).

What does MK have over Wario and Luigi?

 

[thesage]

Well um, neutral b outprioritizes every move they have when it's at full priority. It can combo into itself, and MK is pretty good at edgeguarding both of them.I had a friendly at a tournament where I literally just used that move and I won >_>;

 

[PKNintendo]

I love this thread.

 

[AdmantNESS]

Huh, I thought this topic was purged. I must not have looked hard enough.