I'm loving Wario

[leesinger]

I picked up wario as another secondary along with sheik and I have to say I absolutely love his janky unique playstyle. He has a lot of potential, a high skill ceiling, kill setups, great mobility and the best comeback move in the game. However I think he has some flaws that hopefully get patched in the future.

I would like input from long time wario mains on what you think of some of the changes I propose.

- Up-air. Slightly increase the size of the hitbox. Currently even if warios hand pass through an opponent nothing happens. increase KBG. This move for all its lag in the air and difficulty to hit should at least reward you with a clean kill at 100% right? Guess not, cause this move doesnt kill off the top of battlefield until around 140%. Meanwhile ness's upair kills at like 100% and has no lag.

-Back-air. Definitely needs increase KBG. Its already a kill move, but it doesnt actually kill unless you chase the enemy to the edge of the stage as they are recoverying and they are above 100%. The move looks powerful when he uses it, so the damage and knockback should reflect that.

F-smash. Needs to have increase in startup. The move is way too slow preventing wario from using it to punish much of the cast. The lag on the end of it is fine considering its power, but the fact that it takes .5 seconds to connect makes the move useless on all but the laggiest of moves.

U-smash. Why is this move weaker than both mario's and luigis upsmashes? It comes out slower and has less knockback. Wario should be the heaviest hitter of them all. Thats how it would work thematically at least, right?

Any throw combos. D-throw can create a tech chase scenario, but half the cast can just jump out of it.

Ok am I asking for too much here wario mains? Would these changes make him too good? I only made this thread because there will be a patch coming sept. 30th and I'm hopeful wario will get something out of it. I love playing as him I think he has one of the best aerial games out of the entire cast, but some of his moves just need to be buffed imo.

 

[Axel311]

Biggest change I want is for some reduced lag on upsmash. Wario can struggle to kill if you miss waft which is the biggest issue I have with the character. I don't see any reason why Wario's upsmash is so much worse than Fox, Mario, Pikachu and Luigi's. The lag seems excessive. If they want to nerf the upsmashes on the top tiers instead of buffing Wario's that'd be a solution as well.

Would also love any kind of confirmed combo out of grab. But at the same time, Wario has bite and I don't want to see character homogenization. I'd rather see him buffed in other ways that keep him unique. I suppose something small like upthrow to upair working at low-mid percents would be OK.

I can dream, but less charge time on fart would be amazing.

And does Wario's downsmash really need to be THAT awful? The endlag is excessive considering how the kill power of it is nothing special.

But overall Wario is pretty darn good already, top 20. He doesn't need anything crazy. A more competitive upsmash is all I think he needs to compete with top tiers. Personally, I think if he had mario's upsmash he would be top 10.

 

[leesinger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is wario's upsmash not invincible on the head like the two plumbers? Also I totally agree his d-smash is way too laggy, but I actually do get kills off of it using bike setups on the ledge.

 

[Roots]

When it comes to throws, I doubt Wario will get some kind of d-throw to aerial, just because waft would be stupidly unfair to combo that easily. If he did get a buffed throw, it should probably be a d-throw at an angle that forces a tech, like Sonic's.
The bike mindgames would be great.

And yeah, his smashes are super unsafe and actually pretty underwhelming

 

[Steeler]

I think the character is plenty viable, probably the thing that would help him compete with top tiers the most would be reduced lag on ftilt and utilt. Both are actually fairly good at covering Wario due to their disjointed nature, but there is just too much lag on these moves to rely on them.

 

[Rakurai]

Better frame data on his smashes is the main thing I'd want for him.

Some extra kill power on uair or bair would be welcome, as well, since Wario really isn't that scary in the air when he's not packing a waft.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

- Up-air. Slightly increase the size of the hitbox. Currently even if warios hand pass through an opponent nothing happens. increase KBG. This move for all its lag in the air and difficulty to hit should at least reward you with a clean kill at 100% right? Guess not, cause this move doesnt kill off the top of battlefield until around 140%. Meanwhile ness's upair kills at like 100% and has no lag.

U-air was created to be a kill option a mid-high percents and combo tool that is SAFE ON SHIELD. The move has borderline insane range and warps Wario's hurtbox very nicely. The move has so little landing lag that it's great when used near the ground. Atypical of most U-airs.

-Back-air. Definitely needs increase KBG. Its already a kill move, but it doesnt actually kill unless you chase the enemy to the edge of the stage as they are recoverying and they are above 100%. The move looks powerful when he uses it, so the damage and knockback should reflect that.

B-air definitely does not need KBG buffs. Many Warios do not like playing off stage. B-air is great for jumping off stage backwards and edge-guarding and can edge-guard characters like Peach and Puff amazingly well. The move auto-cancels on short hop, so it's completely fair that the move isn't able to kill mid-stage. The Landing animation of this move is really good too--ducks under ZSS's stun shot--although the lag is sort of high, yet reasonable.

F-smash. Needs to have increase in startup. The move is way too slow preventing wario from using it to punish much of the cast. The lag on the end of it is fine considering its power, but the fact that it takes .5 seconds to connect makes the move useless on all but the laggiest of moves.

Wario's F-smash has insane shield push back by it doing 19 damage. Wario also distorts his own hurtbox by moving his shoulder out of harm's way before dealing his f-smash, great for punishing attack-lands by opponents. It measures up to Ike's quite well. I have a video of me avoiding Ike's jab combo with f-smash. The damage-speed ratio of the move is fair. I personally think Mario's F-smash and Falcon's are currently broken (meaning they need slight nerfs), but Wario has such low traction that you should be able to punish them. This is an F-smash, remember, smashes are reading tools. If you think Wario should have a 19 damage, fast F-smash that distorts his body and has insane range, I have to disagree. I don't blame you for feeling this way because I was the same way when I first started on Wario 6 months ago and I've seen numerous complaints about this move on these boards ever since.

U-smash. Why is this move weaker than both mario's and luigis upsmashes? It comes out slower and has less knockback. Wario should be the heaviest hitter of them all. Thats how it would work thematically at least, right?

It is slower and has less KB than Mario and Luigi's, but it does have intangibility on Wario's head. The only thing I can tell you is that Wario's Up-smash is perfect in that it has deceptive vertical range, which some Warios might not know. Mario and Luigi's Up-smashes are broken and probably will get nerfed with lag, they are the ones needing be fixed.

Any throw combos. D-throw can create a tech chase scenario, but half the cast can just jump out of it.

Down-throw is a great move, but up-throw is better mid-stage in terms of positioning your opponent. If Wario's down-throw chained into bair or bike, that would be completely broken. Here's a tip that applies to a lot of moves in smash in general. If you're facing away from the ledge and down-throw, many times people will DI inwards (People naturally don't like DI-ing away from stage, but good players will) and you can get your bair. F-throw kills, so there's not much to argue about that. B-throw has really good base KB and is great for throwing little mac/characters easy to edge-guard off-stage at low percents. It doesn't do much damage, but it can kill opponents at high percents slightly worse than F-throw. Great for Walk-offs too, I killed a Falcon at 0% back when Castle Siege was legal.

And does Wario's downsmash really need to be THAT awful? The endlag is excessive considering how the kill power of it is nothing special.

The other day I was playing against a C. Falcon play who went for a desperate Raptor Boost and I shielded it. I didn't have waft and he was at Mid-High%'s so I D-smashed him and gimped him. F-smash probably would've done the job but my reactions were slow and I was scared by the raptor boost. D-smash is frame 8 which is ridiculous fast. The move is extremely situational and has a sweet 30 degree angle which works wonders when used right.

Wario is a top 15 character and it's because his extremely unique play-style and his punish game is of the highest in the game. He typically suffers or goes-even in neutral compared to many characters in the game, but has the mobility and tools to counter every character's neutral play-style in one way or another. Wario is unlike Mario, Luigi, other high-top tiers in that he can not be played linearly starting at an intermediate level of competitive play (outside of camping which you can do, except against top players). He has to be played differently to succeed. Know your percent combos, know how Wario moves, and most importantly know how to condition opponents and to mix things up!

 

[Sari]

If it's not too much to ask, I'd like for bike slams to break shields or at least do more shield damage (bike slam is when you do a wheelie and put the bike down on the opponent). Actually landing one under normal conditions is pretty tough, and usually when you try they'll just shield it and hit you. Giving the slam more shield damage would force opponents to hit you off of the bike instead of just waiting it out.

Heck, if Ryu's forward tilt can break shields I don't see why the the bike slam can't.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Just gonna give my two cents in this thread.

First of all, Mario and Luigi's USmash does NOT kill earlier than Wario's. What you're hitting people with using Wario is his sourspot USmash. Wario's Usmash is active for 3 frames, but on it's first 2 it kills 10% earlier than Mario's and 7% earlier than Luigi's if he isn't hitting with his sour spot.

This isn't to say that the move is well balanced, because it isn't. Killing earlier isn't worth having ****ty recovery. Either they make the move come out faster or they give it less leg. As of now, the Mario Bros' usmash are brain dead because of how safe they are.

Wario's back air is indeed lacking. Sure you can autocancel it, but that damage and knock back is pathetic. When Luigi and Fox can jump faster than you AND their bairs have better kill power, there's a problem. Move should launch people at a more horizontal angle and do 1% more damage with a knock back bonus. As of now, it's just underwhelming.

His FSmash shouldn't get any kind of speed boost at the power and knock back it has now. To put it into perspective, the move comes out faster than Captain Falcon's, Mewtwo's, and Metaknights Fsmashes but has more knockback than all of them. It comes out over 10 frames faster than Ike's and it has very similar knockback values (stronger than Ike's early hit, weaker than late). The move is a situational killer, and if it were to get faster it would need to have a damage reduction to make it fair.

 

[leesinger]

Ugh, you guys are wrong his back air doesnt auto cancel, theres a solid 10-15 frames of landing lag, none of his moves auto-cancel on landing. They aren't true auto-cancels. A true auto canceled move is something like charizards nair and sheiks f-air. You can't sheild immediately upon landing with wario's backair or u-air into the ground thus it does not count as a true autocancel.

Ssbm_Jag Dude literally a waste of a post. It seems like you have no idea what you're talking about. First, Warios u-air is not safe on shield and its hurt box is absolutely pitiful. It does allow for a disjoint when used in the hair however without canceling the move into the ground the lag on it is very high. Also without rage Warios u-air doesnt kill mario until 145 FROM THE TOP PLATFORM OF BATTLEFIELD. That means it kills at the same % as sheiks up-air. You're wrong about the back-air or just didnt even bother reading my original post where I said its ONLY useful when you go offstage with it. Meanwhile ZSS can kill you at 90% from the middle of the stage with a backair that comes out faster and has less lag. Once again it appears you have no idea what you're talking about. Wario's f-smash is garbage tier in competetive play, you can see it coming from a mile away so literally the only way its going to land is by hitting someone after they land with a missed up-b or other laggy move. Lastly I never said Wario wasn't good, I think hes great and has alot of cool tools to use in neutral. Bite is amazing, bike is great for recoverying and edgeguarding, up-b is a good oos option, waft is like the best kill move in the game, his f-air is a good spacing tool. There are just the few things I mentioned that I think wario could use to make him more coherent as a character.

 

[Waroh]

Ugh, you guys are wrong his back air doesnt auto cancel,

From Kurogane's framedata chart for Wario:

Wario's shorthop airtime is 35 frames and the auto-cancel for Bair happens at 34 frames and above. You should try buffering a back-air during the jumpsquat animation.

 

[leesinger]

From Kurogane's framedata chart for Wario:

Wario's shorthop airtime is 35 frames and the auto-cancel for Bair happens at 34 frames and above. You should try buffering a back-air during the jumpsquat animation.

Interesting I need to try it out more I guess. After testing it the move only has no lag if you simply shorthop and b-air without fastfalling. As far as I'm concerned that not a true autocanceling move if you cant cancel it with a fast fall into the ground. So no it still doesnt auto cancel. Once again see sheiks f-air kirbs nair or charizards nair

 

[Waroh]

Seems you just have a very different view from everyone else on what autocanceling is. Sheik's f-air is a rather quick move, 10-frames of landing lag without autocancel, so that's why it's so quick even when fast-fallen into the ground.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I would try to respond with help such as practical uses for D-tilt to f-smash, or guaranteed f-smash punishes on zss and yoshi, or maybe try to explain to you the mechanics of smash starting with how lag works and maybe how U-air is safe on shield, but it seems you already have quite the vision of a gimmicky Wario and don't want to hear what I have to say. By the way, your definition of autocancelling, you should totally hold on to the idea that it's a move you fast-fall cancel into the ground without any lag, especially charizard's nair. Sooooooo good. I don't really care if I helped you or not at this point, I hope someone else has read my words and understands it.

 

[Steeler]

I would try to respond with help such as practical uses for D-tilt to f-smash, or guaranteed f-smash punishes on zss and yoshi, or maybe try to explain to you the mechanics of smash starting with how lag works and maybe how U-air is safe on shield, but it seems you already have quite the vision of a gimmicky Wario and don't want to hear what I have to say. By the way, your definition of autocancelling, you should totally hold on to the idea that it's a move you fast-fall cancel into the ground without any lag, especially charizard's nair. Sooooooo good. I don't really care if helped you at this point, I hope someone else has read my words and understands it.

 

[WarioWaft]

Wario's f-throw will kill most characters at 110 from the ledge. Perfect for shielders.

His f-tilt will also KO most characters if connected by the ledge. I treat his f-tilt as a f-smash in the high percentages.

My strategy with Wario is to inflict a lot of damage in small spurts (chomp combos, dash attack chains), and then once I get them over 100% if I can catch with an f-tilt it's great.

Wario can take a lot of damage as well, I've been hit by a Sheik u-air halfway between the top of the screen and platform at 130% and still stayed a live. Unless you play someone like Ganon with so much knockback, you will generally survive most smash attacks at 80-110%.

Another thing is, there's two types of mind games you can play.

1) Super Waft Charged Wario. I notice my opponents will play more cautious, more aerial and defensive because they don't know when the Waft is coming. If they're in 40-50% depending on where they are it can be a guaranteed KO if I land a fully charged Waft.

2) I generally am counting in the back of my head when was the last Waft I attempted. I feel like sometimes I can sneak in a 3/4 charged Waft which is just as effective as a fully charged, but with no body flashing they don't expect it. This can backfire because sometimes I'll try an edgeguard and I'm only on a 1/4 charge Waft and die.