I'm back to SSBM with a Vengeance, (Critique please) Zone vs Rice

[Zone]

I just want to say, I need help on options and habits, and how they are covered when they are covered and how I can avoid them as a Falcon main.

I'm cycling 3 characters right now. Captain Falcon/Fox/Marth

I use to play Zelda competitively and have for 6 years in Tournament. I've only recently in the past 5-6 months started taking high tiers seriously.

Please don't comment on my failed technical skill with these characters(It's a working progress), or obvious suicides. I know I should get more consistent L-cancels.

What I'm looking for is options/habits/How to increase my damage output on mistakes, and how to keep momentum going.

Like when is it a good Idea to STOMP a tech chase, vs just a -regrab down throw.

Here's the Video:

Falcon vs Falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_yEDJ-nX28&list=UUQuGXR3tQObHXN5s-pDIJHA&index=1&feature=plcp

THanks in advance.

I'll upload my Falcon vs Marth/Shiek/Fox/Ganon later.

I chose videos of me against Rice because he destroys me and can show my mistakes easier.

 

[Citizen Snips]

Quick post before I leave: What I'm seeing here is that you go for reads way too early in the techchase. And you get them, which is great. But at low percents, you want to go for regrabs up to maybe 30%. Hitting them with a knee at a percent where they can CC it is a high-risk/low-reward option. Techchasing with grabs builds up damage to a point where they can't do that, and then the option becomes high reward.

 

[Zone]

Quick post before I leave: What I'm seeing here is that you go for reads way too early in the techchase. And you get them, which is great. But at low percents, you want to go for regrabs up to maybe 30%. Hitting them with a knee at a percent where they can CC it is a high-risk/low-reward option. Techchasing with grabs builds up damage to a point where they can't do that, and then the option becomes high reward.

Yeah I didn't try for any normal down throw regrabs in those 3 matches. I'll take what you said into consideration next time I get to play him or Ragnarok. Thanks for the input.

 

[Citizen Snips]

You need to learn how to move smoothly over platforms. I feel like a lot of Falcons neglect this, yet it's an area where he really shines. S2J, Hax, Jeapie, and SS all utilize platforms beautifully, and I would recommend watching them. Obviously you're still getting used to the character, but I would suggest setting aside time specifically to practice stage movment. FoD is a great practice stage, especially if you do no time limit with the one-player glitch.

Also, you're really bad at handling lasers. You just let them hit you and they really disrupt your movement. I just worked on this because I used to do the same thing. Basically, there are two major things you can do:

First, learn to move around you want to learn to shield (And hopefully powershield) the lasers, then quickly move out of shield and keep moving. What I do to practice is fight against a level 9 Falco on FD and run away from him. It forces the AI to shoot a laser. Practice just DDing around and shielding these lasers and then continuing your movement. It's not anywhere near the volume of lasers a standard Falco will throw at you, but it really does help. If you powershield 3 or 4 lasers in a stock, they're going to start getting much more wary about barraging you with them, leaving you a little more breathing room. Remember that the focus shouldn't initially be on powershielding, though. It should just be on moving in and out of shield smoothly.

Second, platforms are your friend. They push you out of laser range and let you move quickly (Full wavelands are da bes'). This goes into what I said earlier about getting his movement down.

A lot of things with Falcon you just pick up over time. Issues I see with your gameplay like missing techchases and mis-timing aerials are all just part of learning the character. He moves fast and falls fast, so messing up is natural for a while. Hell, I still see top level players screw up and dair really late in their jumps sometimes.

One last thing is that you need to work on getting upairs into your game. So many new Falcon players completely disregard upair for situations where the opponent isn't directly above them. Upair hits really low and comes out really fast. Some situations that you should use it more in are:

-As a reactionary techchase because it hits essentially in front of you. If you expect someone to techroll away, you can do an empty short hop towards them, and fast fall with a late upair if they roll like you expected. The best part is that unlike stomp, you still have a chance to punish the tech in place on a lot of characters with another grab if they don't roll away. Plus, uair starts combos, so it's a great tool for picking them up off the ground to where you can manipulate them in the air.

-As an out of shield option. Uair comes out faster than nair, so doing it OOS is great. It's hard to do (I **** it up all the time), but if you get it out early enough you can hit Fox with it.

-As an alternative to nair in general. The issue with nair is that you can't hit short characters with it on the rise. Uair comes out fast enough that you can pick up a Fox off of his missed tech with it, making it a great tool for when you need to hit them right away but nair just isn't gonna cut it. I'm not saying it replaces nair by any means, but it's a good mixup, and it certainly will make your opponent more cautious about approaching you.

 

[Zone]

Thanks for taking the time to analyze me.

You need to learn how to move smoothly over platforms. I feel like a lot of Falcons neglect this, yet it's an area where he really shines. S2J, Hax, Jeapie, and SS all utilize platforms beautifully, and I would recommend watching them. Obviously you're still getting used to the character, but I would suggest setting aside time specifically to practice stage movment. FoD is a great practice stage, especially if you do no time limit with the one-player glitch.

Thanks, I played Zelda and she's slow as balls so I spent most of my time in the air short hopping in a retreat fashion. I do try to use his platform game alot. Most notible in the battlefield match. IT was working real good then he called me out on alot of my jump ups to paltforms and I got punished. His pressure on me was sooo good that I did get scared into defense mode too much. what's a good way to deal with his ridiculous pressure he was putting on me? a few times I tried to wavedash back out of shield, I tried light shielding to get pushed back (But the extra shield stun made it so he could stay on me lol)

I don't mean lazer pressure I read your comment on that that i'll address later. but I mean like I get control of my character just for a split second. aNd he's coming in on me with a laser. I always sit in shield because if I eat the laser i'll eat his approaching aerial. Then he proceeds to grab me. Powershielding it would be awesome but It's alot easier to powershield as marth or Zelda than as Falcon.

Also, you're really bad at handling lasers. You just let them hit you and they really disrupt your movement. I just worked on this because I used to do the same thing. Basically, there are two major things you can do:

First, learn to move around you want to learn to shield (And hopefully powershield) the lasers, then quickly move out of shield and keep moving. What I do to practice is fight against a level 9 Falco on FD and run away from him. It forces the AI to shoot a laser. Practice just DDing around and shielding these lasers and then continuing your movement. It's not anywhere near the volume of lasers a standard Falco will throw at you, but it really does help. If you powershield 3 or 4 lasers in a stock, they're going to start getting much more wary about barraging you with them, leaving you a little more breathing room. Remember that the focus shouldn't initially be on powershielding, though. It should just be on moving in and out of shield smoothly.

Second, platforms are your friend. They push you out of laser range and let you move quickly (Full wavelands are da bes'). This goes into what I said earlier about getting his movement down.

A lot of things with Falcon you just pick up over time. Issues I see with your gameplay like missing techchases and mis-timing aerials are all just part of learning the character. He moves fast and falls fast, so messing up is natural for a while. Hell, I still see top level players screw up and dair really late in their jumps sometimes.

One last thing is that you need to work on getting upairs into your game. So many new Falcon players completely disregard upair for situations where the opponent isn't directly above them. Upair hits really low and comes out really fast. Some situations that you should use it more in are:

-As a reactionary techchase because it hits essentially in front of you. If you expect someone to techroll away, you can do an empty short hop towards them, and fast fall with a late upair if they roll like you expected. The best part is that unlike stomp, you still have a chance to punish the tech in place on a lot of characters with another grab if they don't roll away. Plus, uair starts combos, so it's a great tool for picking them up off the ground to where you can manipulate them in the air.

-As an out of shield option. Uair comes out faster than nair, so doing it OOS is great. It's hard to do (I **** it up all the time), but if you get it out early enough you can hit Fox with it.

-As an alternative to nair in general. The issue with nair is that you can't hit short characters with it on the rise. Uair comes out fast enough that you can pick up a Fox off of his missed tech with it, making it a great tool for when you need to hit them right away but nair just isn't gonna cut it. I'm not saying it replaces nair by any means, but it's a good mixup, and it certainly will make your opponent more cautious about approaching you.

Alright I'll work on wave dash out of shield inbetween lasers a little more. But just about where do I want to stand when I want to counter attack him? I need to find that special spacing where I can bait him to laser me a bit too close yet still out of range of a grab/f-tilt and punish accordingly. I guess that should come from experience.

I'll experiment with up-air as you described thank you. I feel like I can also knee tech chase and still chase them in time to grab them. I'm pretty sure that's just as viable as up-air l-cancel (if whiff then chase) no?

my failed wavelands are just a technical problem I had with him I'll get that over time.

I tend to mess up my wavelands really bad though when I'm under alot of pressure. I can do it flawlessly when fighting against bad players, but against particularly Rice, I feel like my tech skill drops substantially because I spend so much time in defense My fingers aren't warmed up for offense/movement.


@2:15 in that match:

when I raptor boosted him onto that platform. I'm really good at punishing when say I like upthrow them above me on the platform. But when they are knocked away from me on a platform horizontally from me I almost NEVER land a punish. What would you have done to keep momentum in that situation?

 

[Citizen Snips]

what's a good way to deal with his ridiculous pressure he was putting on me? a few times I tried to wavedash back out of shield, I tried light shielding to get pushed back (But the extra shield stun made it so he could stay on me lol)

Honestly, buffer a roll with the c-stick if the pressure is too tight. Don't spot dodge. It's bad, and there's very few cases where you can use it. Don't let the rolls get predictable either, and try to look for a mistake in their pressure where you can get a shield grab. You can learn to identify pressure mistakes if you play enough Falcos (Early dair is usually the one I get).

Alright I'll work on wave dash out of shield inbetween lasers a little more. But just about where do I want to stand when I want to counter attack him? I need to find that special spacing where I can bait him to laser me a bit too close yet still out of range of a grab/f-tilt and punish accordingly. I guess that should come from experience.

Yeah, and it's something I'm still working on. Falco's tricky, and I honestly need to watch more of the matchup even though it's one of my most comfortable ones, because it's really hard to pinpoint a concrete strategy against him. Hopefully a better player can help you out with this.

I'll experiment with up-air as you described thank you. I feel like I can also knee tech chase and still chase them in time to grab them. I'm pretty sure that's just as viable as up-air l-cancel (if whiff then chase) no?

The difference between knee and uair is that you have to commit to a knee. You can react to a missed tech or tech in place with an uair, and if they tech roll, just don't do a uair, fast fall, land, and then run over and grab them. Knee is a much more tight timing and if you're even a little off you'll miss the regrab.

my failed wavelands are just a technical problem I had with him I'll get that over time.

I tend to mess up my wavelands really bad though when I'm under alot of pressure. I can do it flawlessly when fighting against bad players, but against particularly Rice, I feel like my tech skill drops substantially because I spend so much time in defense My fingers aren't warmed up for offense/movement.

@2:15 in that match:

when I raptor boosted him onto that platform. I'm really good at punishing when say I like upthrow them above me on the platform. But when they are knocked away from me on a platform horizontally from me I almost NEVER land a punish. What would you have done to keep momentum in that situation?

In that situation, I personally would waveland onto the platform and grab him. You can react to that, so I would leave myself open to react with a uair to cover the tech in place or roll away, and waveland and grab the roll in. FoD is weird though, so I'm not sure if it would work there. It's a tough call. I'd say that you could also double jump bait it and react.

 

[Deleted member]

rice is pretty good

i'll go in doubt in a bit feelin lazy

 

[Zone]

rice is pretty good

i'll go in doubt in a bit feelin lazy

yeah he's power ranked in FL. He just doesn't travel a lot.

 

[Deleted member]

wtf @ my 2nd line

i'll watch ur matches in a bit again, i find that your capitalizing though is sort of off

 

[ryankam10]

your really good and so is your opponent. I posted a comment on your vid but I'll say it again here. You don't seem to contest his pressure with nairs of your own. When he spaces nairs into shine pressure there isnt much you can do but in other situations where hes close but not nairing towards you try throwing out some nairs. i didnt really see any at all in your videos... i could be wrong but ill watch them again, that was my first impression. hopefully someone shares my sentiment

 

[Zone]

In that situation, I personally would waveland onto the platform and grab him. You can react to that, so I would leave myself open to react with a uair to cover the tech in place or roll away, and waveland and grab the roll in. FoD is weird though, so I'm not sure if it would work there. It's a tough call. I'd say that you could also double jump bait it and react.

He tech rolled toward the ledge, could I have jumped passed him when he shields to avoid me then waveland backward to push him off into an upair perhaps?

 

[Zone]

wtf @ my 2nd line

i'll watch ur matches in a bit again, i find that your capitalizing though is sort of off

Would appreciate any help. especially from a rising legend.

your really good and so is your opponent. I posted a comment on your vid but I'll say it again here. You don't seem to contest his pressure with nairs of your own. When he spaces nairs into shine pressure there isnt much you can do but in other situations where hes close but not nairing towards you try throwing out some nairs. i didnt really see any at all in your videos... i could be wrong but ill watch them again, that was my first impression. hopefully someone shares my sentiment

Thanks for the 2cents. I use Nairs ALOT against fox to catch him out of the air. Falco though.. his lasers I just don't feel like I can contend with them so I try to attack at a 45 degree angle over his lasers or raptor boost through them, or something.

He also punishes them alot with crouch cancel shine and that's extremely nasty. high reward for him low reward for me if I land a nair. but I guess if I was spacing it correctly like retreating or in PLACE Nair, he can't CC me.

The situation you're talking about do you mean like the 17 second mark? where I spot dodged on accident.



EDIT: Sorry double post on accident.

 

[Deleted member]

sorry for late critique:

your fundamental tech chasing problem is in my view you almost always assume they are going to do a get up attack so you jump around waiting for it. This would be great if your opponents get-up attacked a lot but committing to this option lets them get away for free if they choose not to

Rice got away a lot from it as a result

sometimes you should not always commit to a guess either, just wavedash/be close to their body so you can react and punish

==

Some sloppy tech skill let Rice get away from punishes

0:56 after rolling away, don't dash dance towards him again, 90% of falcos will auto cancel b-air in this spot so just focus on getting away and regaining neutral ground

1:06 again, you run around after you tech in place and get shined and killed

1:25 don't overabuse cute tactics such as waveland off up-air, then do it on other side of platform. Rice just back aired you in the face for it

1:36 DI/ Smash DI in so hard that you land on stage from spike in this spot. Alternative idea is to DI shine hard AWAY but that also puts you in a bad spot. At least you aren't dead though


start of 2nd match, y
2:05 instead of sitting in your shield until it breaks, roll to the left

3:34 you attack too much out of bad/defensive spots. I hella love to attack out of defensive positions ( some say this is my personal weakness) but you have to do it in spots where there is at least a chance of you hitting and not getting punished. This isn't one of them

5:56 personal preference, but after ur stomp here I just wavedash closer to him since he is probably going to roll in a direction/ normal get up and I just follow up grab.


6:33~ Good side-B spot, pre-emptive jab isn't too good because you have a timing window to jab reset as their body flops around


Your anti-combo DI is not very good

Fundamentals aren't top notch either, sometimes I can see you want to knee a certain direction but you fall short

6:44 comes to mind and makes me want to bash my face against the wall when I see this on youtube

===

I don't feel the need to say things for more obvious spots, and I got lazy towards the end, but Rice is pretty good. Playing vs players better than you is very important because they, unlike people worse, bring out the flaws in you.

Rice is really good for a guy I've never heard of in my life. Seems like a fun guy to play

 

[Zone]

sorry for late critique:

your fundamental tech chasing problem is in my view you almost always assume they are going to do a get up attack so you jump around waiting for it. This would be great if your opponents get-up attacked a lot but committing to this option lets them get away for free if they choose not to

Rice got away a lot from it as a result

sometimes you should not always commit to a guess either, just wavedash/be close to their body so you can react and punish

==

Some sloppy tech skill let Rice get away from punishes

0:56 after rolling away, don't dash dance towards him again, 90% of falcos will auto cancel b-air in this spot so just focus on getting away and regaining neutral ground

1:06 again, you run around after you tech in place and get shined and killed

1:25 don't overabuse cute tactics such as waveland off up-air, then do it on other side of platform. Rice just back aired you in the face for it

1:36 DI/ Smash DI in so hard that you land on stage from spike in this spot. Alternative idea is to DI shine hard AWAY but that also puts you in a bad spot. At least you aren't dead though


start of 2nd match, y
2:05 instead of sitting in your shield until it breaks, roll to the left

3:34 you attack too much out of bad/defensive spots. I hella love to attack out of defensive positions ( some say this is my personal weakness) but you have to do it in spots where there is at least a chance of you hitting and not getting punished. This isn't one of them

5:56 personal preference, but after ur stomp here I just wavedash closer to him since he is probably going to roll in a direction/ normal get up and I just follow up grab.


6:33~ Good side-B spot, pre-emptive jab isn't too good because you have a timing window to jab reset as their body flops around


Your anti-combo DI is not very good

Fundamentals aren't top notch either, sometimes I can see you want to knee a certain direction but you fall short

6:44 comes to mind and makes me want to bash my face against the wall when I see this on youtube

===

I don't feel the need to say things for more obvious spots, and I got lazy towards the end, but Rice is pretty good. Playing vs players better than you is very important because they, unlike people worse, bring out the flaws in you.

Rice is really good for a guy I've never heard of in my life. Seems like a fun guy to play

Really appreciate your in depth critique I'll try to harness the power and improve forward with what you've said and take it into hard consideration next time I play which is this weekend.

You made alot of sense with what you've said and I appreciate that you avoided "technical" errors as those are obvious and pointed out flaws in my decision making and my prediction vs reaction problems.

You're a cool guy just sayin.

Rice is powerranked in FL, and that's a hard state to get powerranked in. He doesn't travel much because he has no money, and no car. But hopefully I can take him to a big major sometime so he can run a train on the unsuspected.

As for the failed knee that made you want to bash your face in. I thought he'd tech in place. I just guessed wrong. I didn't fall short on that, I guessed the wrong tech option.

My anti combo DI with Zelda is great, but when I'm falcon, I'm getting hit at times I don't expect it, because the way I'm combo'd is totally different. I'll work on it. I'd always want to slightly survival DI with Zelda so if they chased me I'd get a free kick in their face.... the same DI does not do the same rewards for falcon. So I have to sort of readjust.

 

[Deleted member]

jk about face bashing, and yeah just lookin at ur sig i can tell u don't just play falcon lol

 

[Zone]

jk about face bashing, and yeah just lookin at ur sig i can tell u don't just play falcon lol

He's the one I've been considering MAINING lately

I'm just trying to find which character I think I'm most promising with that isn't "Zelda" she's been a headache and holding me back for such a long time.

So I'm cycling through Fox/Falcon/Marth atm.

Then I'm going to choose one and STICK with it. As I think staying with ONE is key to getting real good as I don't got the time to try and main 3 at once.

 

[Mr Postman]

Please don't play fox... the world as enough of them already.

 

[Gahtzu]

if you're looking for a character that wont hold you back and will help u win tournies/do better overall I think you should main Fox. While Falcon is cool as **** I feel like he's only worth it if you start out your smash career or switch to him early on. That being said you've been in the game for a while and coming back with a vengeance is also easier with Fox lol.

 

[JonnyW]

Please don't play fox... the world as enough of them already.

No it doesn't.

 

[j00t]

After watching Javi, no, there are not enough Fox players.

 

[Zone]

Well thanks for the effort guys. I've been convinced to choose between Fox/Marth now after a huge smashfest this last weekend. I yeilded better results with my Fox/Marth.

The only problem is my Fox was doing REALLY well at random points in time during the tournament (not missing a single l-cancel or waveshine, good spacing and tech chasing ect ect. Then only like after a 10 minute break while I ran the tournament, I'd come back and lost half my tech skill I just had missing wavelands and stuff.

I went Fox all tournament and changed to marth for loser's finals and grand finals against Rice. In Winner's finals against rice I went fox against his marth and did pretty well. It wasn't 2-3stocks like the vids I posted here. well one match was a 3 stock. The other 2 were last hit last kill.(HE got both last hits DAMMIT! lol)

 

[Citizen Snips]

Yeah, if you want to win don't play Falcon. His matchups against the top tiers all blow.

However, if you want to be awesome...

 

[Deleted member]

Wowwwwwww ****ig help u out then u main fox omfg

 

[j00t]

lol .

 

[Windrose]

Wowwwwwww ****ig help u out then u main fox omfg

:@:@:@:@:@:@:@:@

 

[Zone]

Wowwwwwww ****ig help u out then u main fox omfg

lol I was trying to main falcon... people told me I'm an idiot for even attempting it.

It's hard to try maining someone when some people aren't giving you support for it.

Everytime I lose someone's like "PRobably should've been Fox/Marth" or "why didn't you use your Fox/Marth?"

I'm still playing around with him. I'm just convinced My falcon is no where near tournament ready.

 

[Deleted member]

i was pretty much kidding but its sad to see that ur region is filled with biches

 

[Windrose]

depending what good players reside in what regions, certain characters become more popular than others and other characters are suppressed in said region.


Here in toronto, it is pretty stupid to play falcon (hence the lack of falcon mains). there are really good players that all play characters that beat falcon intrinsically. plus they're really good. but i can't play any other character because they're not fun.

i'm surprised hax continued to play falcon in a region with tope and m2k....this is probably why he's so good at the sheik matchup......

but not everyone can have the endurance to go through the extremely hard learning curve of falcon. you have to be so much better than your opponent to win against say a falco or sheik or fox...

 

[Wenbobular]

Why do you care so much about what other people think about your main haha

I'm still working on confidence issues with Falcon but he makes way more sense to me than any other character, so he's the character I consider my main

Also I feel like I've gotten a slightly better understanding of how this game works so I've been inspired to playing only Falcon again in tourney [/unrelated]

 

[JonnyW]

My falcon is the only character im confident with.

 

[Deleted member]

depending what good players reside in what regions, certain characters become more popular than others and other characters are suppressed in said region.


Here in toronto, it is pretty stupid to play falcon (hence the lack of falcon mains). there are really good players that all play characters that beat falcon intrinsically. plus they're really good. but i can't play any other character because they're not fun.

i'm surprised hax continued to play falcon in a region with tope and m2k....this is probably why he's so good at the sheik matchup......

but not everyone can have the endurance to go through the extremely hard learning curve of falcon. you have to be so much better than your opponent to win against say a falco or sheik or fox...

Idk about so much better

 

[Zone]

I played falcon most of the time in a smashfest yesterday, and did alot better vs Ragnarok's Fox than I did last time.

My mind was on point. I didn't miss my tech chases. I was 3 steps ahead in my mind while my fingers caught up.

Infact if it wasn't for atleast 1 shine gimp at near zero each match. I most likely would've tooken 40% more matches. I had a few zero to death (Psuedo)combos off of downthrow. I got re-excited for falcon. I'll probably stay re-excited until I get to play rice again lol. Not that it's not fun playing him, he just makes me feel like I go backwards in skill, because I almost never get any momentum.

I have a hard time switching from mass defense then when I finally find an opening. My mind isn't "3" steps ahead because I'm like half surprised I punished him lol.

 

[Mizar]

Falco is strong when you approach from the front and beneath. Make use of the platforms to have an easier time with lasers and a better attack angle. Also recovering from below/going for sweetspot with falcon is pretty bad in 80% of the cases, especially vs falco. Spacing nairs from platforms and stomping works great. Techchasing is also really important in the match-up. Once you get a knockdown with a stomp or spaced nair, go into full techchasing **** mode.

EDIT* Btw, anyway who flames you for playing falcon is more afraid to lose to a masculine underdog instead of an easy-to-pick-up char like fox or falco.

 

[Beat!]

Or they're afraid you'll turn into one of those guys who blame matchups/*insert characters* being broken when losing.