IFHS vs Snake's Mortar Slide and Meta's Tornado (Revisited)

[Zanthos25]

This is a long post, so my apologies. If you can disprove each and everyone one of my points where Falco comes out in a disadvantage when using IFHS vs. Snake's Mortar Slide and Meta's tornado, I will not create any more topics about IFHS I promise. Unless this is addressed, I don't back down from an argument. Please note that by quoting you all, I am not attacking you directly, and have never attacked anyone on here directly in and way shape or fashion. Now, I don't reply with one sentences because not only is that immature and hardly examines the situation closely, I take the time to think things through before posting. Debates can be fun, but not if everyone is flaming the next person left and right.

Before we continue, a visual of what I am doing. I apologize if I was not specific enough in my wording. I'm not talking about using the shine part to trip or attack Snake on the ground.

Here is my bad visual representation.
M= Mortar



.................................................. ..............................................| ...(Falco after using IFHS)
.................................................. ............................................. V

.................................................. ....................... (M falls down hits shine)
.................................................. .................................................. ..|
.................................................. .................................................. ..|
.................................................. .................................................. ..|

Snake .................................................. ...........................................Falco
--------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>>>(Mortar Slide)
.....................(At this point, Falco uses IFHS)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Stage]

Hey, it's Zanthos25. Now some of you might be thinking..."Here he is to talk about the 'useless' tech IFHS again. Who is quoted of saying this is flat out useless with no applications whatsoever (so you know that I'm not throwing around the term)? Guys, I'm not here to start a flame war, but claiming something is useless in 100% of situations is illogical thinking. Now if you don't want to be quoted as such, please don't make such ridiculous claims and I won't have a need to do it. Sorry but, I get flamed way too much and harshly compared to users on other character boards.

And IFHS stands for...?

EDIT: Lol. This is for the most part useless

That being said, IFHS (sorry but I think this is pretty bad as well) is near useless to me.

Ok, he asked me to do this.

If you actually read this whole post and don't ignore it then quote this one sentence in your next post.

Stupid is not "useless", but you get the point.

hmm, yea, this is terribly stupid.

Also NjFinest said that it was ******** but then took it back. Oops, claiming something and then taking it back can work when you are thinking but not by posting something on a message board.

Well there we go. Claiming something is "useless" is not the same as saying :
1) This is not very practical in competitive play in any (vague unless you disprove EVERY possible situation in brawl) situation, so there is no need to use it. Sorry. Good effort though. (if someone said this I would not need to bring it up again).
2)Everytime you use IFHS, it puts you at a disadvantage. (You would have to disprove each and everyone one of my points).
3)You've disproved some of my points, and I understand that.
4)Even J4pu said this has a situational use. J4pu! Which prompted me to create yet another topic.

EDIT-

Situational use, I like it
hits snake, reflects mortar which makes it unsafe for snake to stand there and await your return to the ground, and it allows you to DI away while in cooldown lag

However, I wanted to revisit the IFHS vs Snake's Mortar Slide and Metaknight tornado debate, which I believe was hardly discussed at all.

Now what is IFHS? (hopefully you can discern the abbreviation by now). It's a laggy move that people can see coming, is "highly punishable", "has shine lag", and "Falco is vulnerable in the air". If you are not aware of when the shine lag frames end when performing this, yes you will get punished.

First off what is Snake's mortar Slide? It's a laggy move and you can see it coming...but Snake's still use it. Second, he cannot do anything in the duration of performing a Mortar Slide, and slightly afterwards.

Alright, forget everything about IFHS for a second and just focus on this. You are performing IFHS while Snake is using mortar slide. He is not about to use mortar slide, he is actually in the mortar slide animation. Now, Snakes typically uses mortar slide a fair distance away from you (not up in your face). What are your options?

1)Shield his mortar slide where you will either get punished by the mortar or Snake afterwards. DISADVANTAGE
2)Dodge on the exact frame snake comes across with his mortar slide (not only difficult to do, the mortar or snake will probably still punish you as a result) DISADVANTAGE
3)Jump out of the way. If you jump straight up, you will still get punished. You have to jump (Full hop) up and diagonally fast enough to put yourself in an advantageous position. ADV. OR DISADV.
4)Run up and try to attack Snake (you will likely get hit with the slide part as a result) DISADVANTAGE
5)Perform a phantasm. If you can perform an aerial phantasm fast enough and hit Snake as a result, you will have the advantage. If you cannot perform an IAP fast enough then you will get hit and be in a bad situation. If you are performing a regular phantasm you are performing a move you didn't want to do in the first place and Snake will have the advantage. ADV. or DISADV.
6)Perform a laser or SHDL. If you can time a laser properly, I believe it will stop Snake in his tracks, but don't quote me on that. If you SH or SHDL, Snake has the potential to hit you with the "slide" animation of mortar slide before you return to the ground. ADV or DISADV
7)Retreat over to the edge in some fashion. Not only is it hard to get over to the edge fast enough as Falco, you are putting yourself in a position where Snake wants you, giving him the advantage. DISADV
?)Now I'm sure there are other options I didn't mention but certainly not where there will put Falco in an advantageous position.

Now I haven't directly tested this...but if someone goes out there, tests this, and proves me wrong on my points, I will rest my case and conclude that IFHS has NO place in competitive play.

8)Properly time a IFHS so that the shine is below Falco after its use. This shouldn't be hard to do because Snake typically performs his mortar slide at a full stage's length. I'm not saying this is easy, but neither is RPBG, and see how advantageous that is. If you have fast reflexes the shine part of Falco's shine should reflect Snake's mortar no matter where he uses it vertically to you. ADVANTAGE

-How are you going to get hit with his mortar if you DI away from the mortar itself. Worst case scenario, you are on a platform with a little lag upon landing, which there is no way a Snake can get up there in time after performing MS to punish you.

I'll review my points on using this on Snake's mortar slide and add input on Metaknight's tornado after some users offer their input.

 

[Dreadz18x]

link to the IFHS demonstration?

 

[Zanthos25]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUALsW-pr4&feature=channel_page

I forgot how to put a name on a link, but there it is. It's the best demonstration I could do and the video quality is bad, so forgive me for that.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

By attempting to disprove anything you say, it's only going to cause you to spam your topic even more. It's pretty unfortunate that you would choose to "unveil" this in the same time Tommy G shows his Dthrow > Bair video and the Dthrow > jab > laser lock and you get completely over shadowed. But it's not like this is a huge discovery or some game breaking technique or something worthwhile to implement in our game.

Seriously, you're the only one hung up on this and at this point, you're doing more harm than help to the Falco boards.

 

[Dreadz18x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUALsW-pr4&feature=channel_page

I forgot how to put a name on a link, but there it is. It's the best demonstration I could do and the video quality is bad, so forgive me for that.

oh..
dis aint nuttin new to me atleast.
only good for projectiles and snakes mortar imo.

 

[Zanthos25]

Look, I don't expect to be hailed as some hero or make a name for myself either. But already, I'm being DIRECTLY attacked (flamed) by people and they didn't even probably read my entire post. If you deny the fact this has situational use, then you are being naive.

EDIT: I'm sorry guys flaming gets no where in attempting to have a mature discussion and only causes me to ignore you. Nothing gets done with flaming. Nothing.

 

[Dreadz18x]

Look, I don't expect to be hailed as some hero or make a name for myself either. But already, I'm being DIRECTLY attacked (flamed) by people and they didn't even probably read my entire post. If you deny the fact this has situational use, then you are being naive.

dont worry about it..
falco doesnt really need AT's anyways

 

[Hyo]

I understand that hitting snake with a reflector while he mortar slides is advantageous. But let's look at it from this perspective: How advantageous is it?

For one, Reflector has no real knockback. The best we can get is a trip, which we automatically can no longer punish because we are airborne.

Two, timing. I get how someone would be able to just IFJS a mortar, but a smart Snake wouldn't abuse it. A lot of the time, I don't see it used too much as a full out attack, but more as a method of travel. In addition, it works as a great edge guard.

Finally, reflection of the mortar missile itself. Snake slides in the animation, and the missile lands behind him. Therefore, even if the missile is reflected, it hits no one.

From what I gather, it looks like Falco gains a momentum boost from his shine, when in actuality, all of it is a visual illusion. There is no discernible difference between a double jump or shine, but it takes away Falco's options in the air as he has to be shining.

 

[p8nted]

Maybe there's a reason you're getting flamed... =X

You shouldn't take it personally, people are just trying to find the best possible use for your discovery. Which, in this case, is to not use it.

Your hard work is appreciated, but there are far better alternatives than the IFHS.

Please stop spamming the falco boards with this.

 

[Zanthos25]

I understand that hitting snake with a reflector while he mortar slides is advantageous. But let's look at it from this perspective: How advantageous is it?

I apologize if I was not specific enough in my wording. I'm not talking about using the shine part to trip or attack Snake on the ground.

Here is my bad visual representation.
M= Mortar



................................................................................................| ...(Falco after using IFHS)
............................................................................................... V

......................................................................... (M falls down hits shine)
......................................................................................................|
......................................................................................................|
......................................................................................................|

Snake .............................................................................................Falco
--------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>>>(Mortar Slide)
.....................(At this point, Falco uses IFHS)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Stage]

Now i haven't tested this, but Falco should have enough time to punish Snake's attempt to dodge the reflected mortar. Remember, there is no lag when landing, unless you land in the shine lag's animation up in the air (i.e. lower Battlefield platform).

 

[Panix]

Comming from a snake's point of view this move could be used. more or less i would say their are better alternatives, even just laser'ing snakes mortar slide is better.

But a snake wont approach a falco with mortar slide, mainly because out of the whole cast of ssbb falco can punish snakes slide the worst. (shl to grab to a chain grab, shl to a fsmash)

 

[p8nted]

We're not saying that it's completely useless. It's just that there is always a better alternative. Simply lasering snake when he starts the slide is a better alternative because it leads to a follow-up.

Edit: oh, Panix replied before I could.

 

[zamz]

Comming from a snake's point of view this move could be used. more or less i would say their are better alternatives, even just laser'ing snakes mortar slide is better.

But a snake wont approach a falco with mortar slide, mainly because out of the whole cast of ssbb falco can punish snakes slide the worst. (shl to grab to a chain grab, shl to a fsmash)

And this becomes the biggest possible problem towards IFHS's usefulness. There will always be better options. Why reflect and potentially miss, when you can hurl a laser that wont miss? One needlessly puts you in danger and one doesn't.

Yes, IFHS might have a use out there. But laser will always be the just as applicable, safer alternative.

 

[Zanthos25]

And this becomes the biggest possible problem towards IFHS's usefulness. There will always be better options. Why reflect and potentially miss, when you can hurl a laser that wont miss? One needlessly puts you in danger and one doesn't.

Yes, using B (laser) during Snake's mortar slide is one option, but why not punish the Snake player more? The damage of a reflected mortar is nothing to sneeze at. I'm saying both are viable options, and I'm not dismissing simply tapping B at all.

First off, how is Falco in danger? His jump already took him away from the scene of Snake's mortar slide, and snake cannot move until he releases the mortar.

I still say IFHS on the edge of a stage is a viable alternative to Snake's edgeguarding game with his grenades, mortars and whatever else he throws at you. (i.e. actually hanging from the edge so you know what I'm talking about.)

 

[J4pu]

well when i described when it is useful is in the exact scenario where: shine can hit snake AND reflect mortar.

in other cases it's less viable.

 

[Panix]

If you give me a video of how much damage this does and that it beat's out (at lower percent's a chain grab)or at least a laser to F-smash (mind you this are high level skills in the first place to be utilizing.)

 

[Zanthos25]

Did anyone consider the situation where you perform IFHS like the visual I depicted, but instead you input no directional influence and go straight up. In this scenario, you've got a reflected mortar and aerial awaiting to meet Snake on the ground. I'm not saying its the best alternative, but I see Falco players losing to Snake's left and right. We have to think of something.

If Snake waits to release his mortar, airdodge the mortar and then follow-up.

 

[superglucose]

So when facing off against a mortar slide, your proposed solution is to full hop a shine? To what means? The video you linked said that it doesn't hit grounded opponents, so the only possible advantage is that you reflect the mortar... but the mortar slide isn't a killer move, it's mostly utility. It's mostly "I wanna be *over there* and fast."

In any case, SHL/SHDL is a little slower on startup but has almost no landing lag and puts us in a position to punish. Especially since mortar slides are generally speaking not used to approach. In fact, from my time on the snake boards, I believe it's used as a tool to retreat or edgeguard.

Falcos are losing to snake because snake is a fantastic character and a lot of good people main him, not because mortar slide is ridiculous or hard to stop.

 

[Zanthos25]

The video you linked said that it doesn't hit grounded opponents, so the only possible advantage is that you reflect the mortar... but the mortar slide isn't a killer move, it's mostly utility. It's mostly "I wanna be *over there* and fast."

When I made that video, I was in the earlier stages of testing IFHS and finding something useful that could be applied to Falco's game. Later on, I discovered the shine (while performing IFHS) can hit grounded opponents if they are in within grabbing distance (roughly). Its odd though because it didn't always hit the opponent when I performed it.

It's funny though, people still aren't seeing eye to eye with me yet on this issue. You can say, yeah I'll punish Snake with 2-3% for using mortar slide on me. However, if you can successfully pull off what I am describing, that is potentially 30% on him for his punishment of pulling out mortar slide on you during the match. I can almost guarantee that the Snake player won't pull out mortar slide again that match (except when edgeguarding) because they know they will get heavily punished. You have just eliminated one of Snake's potential options. You have the advantage in the matchup. What does this mean? Snake won't approach you with a mortar slide and will only retreat with it. You have won the spacing battle.

Performing IFHS in this scenario is a risk.

Why do you think SK92 is such a great Falco player (or any well-known Brawl/Melee) player. Because they take risks. Their level of thinking during the match is unparalled to any of our own. Why do people win tournaments? Because they take risks. Why do people win the lottery? Because they take risks. I could go on...

You could say...
"I see Snake approaching me with mortar slide...I'm going to give him 2%-3% damage by simply tapping the B button."

View this scenario...
"I'm gonna punish Snake take a risk for 30%+ damage, and if I am successful, he won't pull out an advancing mortar slide vs. me for the entire rest of the match".

EDIT:
I'm just going to say people are neglecting the reflective properties of performing IFHS and are just looking at the weaknesses. Yes, there are weaknesses, I am not oblivious to that fact.

 

[Hyo]

^I don't think you're seeing past the 2-3% laser either. The follow up is almost guaranteed, and can score well over 45% damage.

If you space it right, Falco can fire a SHL and then follow up immediately with a grab. This leads to CG, leading to 45%+ damage ending possibly with a spike. If that isn't discouragement to finish a MS, I don't know what is.

If Snake is at high percents, SHL to DACUS (or just usmash for that matter) and he dies. Again, no more mortar. His own mortar would not kill him as likely as a Falco usmash, that's irrefutable.

If you don't want to usmash (high ceiling), fsmash. Snake again, dies.

There you go. Three ways that the laser is superior to IFHS when playing a Snake, right out of the Falco textbook. All three lead to Snake losing a stock, and all three either deal more than 30%, or kill Snake.

 

[Zanthos25]

Hyo. It's almost if people neglect to look into this and are afraid to apply new concepts to their game. "Yeah, in this particular instance, I could at least consider using it". Its almost as if no one wants to concede that I am right on certain points. I NEVER said IFHS was the superior choice in all situations. Yet you fail to give an example where this (IFHS) would certainly would be the best (or alternative) option (telling me that you are just dismissing it without even looking at the entire picture). I'm sure everyone around here takes my input with a grain of salt, (judging by all the flames and whatnot I have received) but here it is.

Did ANYONE ever address using IFHS on the edge? If you are confused what it is watch the video again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUALsW-pr4&feature=channel 2:01-2:38

1) Snake is camping/edgeguarding with his mortar and grenades on the edge. You are hanging from the edge. You perform an IFHS while hanging on the edge "shine-hopping" pushing his projectiles away from the edge giving you clearance to return safely via phantasm or firebird if you choose. This is useful particularly against Snake. Why can't anyone understand this. I know if you do it vs. Metaknight you will get punished because of the proirity of his attacks. I know that.

2)Pit/Lucario/Samus etc. projectile is approaching you and you are in the air (or even on the ground for that matter). If you use shine normally you will fall down to the ground and get punished. You can DI away and reflect the projectile at the same time.

Sorry but, good Snake players don't get spiked by Falco. Period.

EDIT: Where's that quote about the special olympics and arguing on the Internet. Yeah. It applies in this situation. Good luck against Snake, Falco's. Rather than trying to consider all possible points and discussing various countermeasures, people just flame others trying to disprove each other showing how "high and mighty" they are about Falco. If I see you lose, I'll probably be laughing in the background.

Ehh..I'm done posting on Smashboards, it really is pointless. I hope you treat everyone in real life the same way. You'll go very far.

 

[Hyo]

I NEVER said IFHS was the superior choice in all situations.

For the most part, IFHS is just a mixup that the general concensus is that IFHS has high risk and little reward.

Yet you fail to give an example where this (IFHS) would certainly would be the best (or alternative) option (telling me that you are just dismissing it without even looking at the entire picture).

What? I'm supposed to give you an example of where your move is the best (or alternative) option? I've recognized your situations for where IFHS may have application, but the fact is that alternatives to it exist. And these alternatives are superior. (Not to mention a lot easier to perform. Remember, Falco is all about consistency.)

Did ANYONE ever address using IFHS on the edge?

It has been discussed (I believe) several times that the only application for a IFHS was on the ledge. In fact, many Falco's already incorporate this in their game. However, like above, there are better options. On the ledge, Falco could just as easily LH laser on, LH laser to phantasm, or immediately phantasm when Ledge hopped.

1) Snake is camping/edgeguarding with his mortar and grenades on the edge. You are hanging from the edge. You perform an IFHS while hanging on the edge "shine-hopping" pushing his projectiles away from the edge giving you clearance to return safely via phantasm or firebird if you choose. This is useful particularly against Snake. Why can't anyone understand this. I know if you do it vs. Metaknight you will get punished because of the proirity of his attacks. I know that.

For the most part, Snake tries to use his mortar as an edge guard on characters with more vertical recovery. Falco -- as we all know very well -- has next to none in that department. In fact, it's all horizontal. In that situation, Snake would pull out Nikita. Sure you can IFHS it, but the shine has certain properties that don't reflect it straight back. For all you know, it could just hit you again.

2)Pit/Lucario/Samus etc. projectile is approaching you and you are in the air (or even on the ground for that matter). If you use shine normally you will fall down to the ground and get punished. You can DI away and reflect the projectile at the same time.

By doing this, you are sacrificing your double jump. This is in effect, putting Falco in a terrible position.

IFHS requires a full hop. Sure you reflected their projectile. But now you're in the air, and they have likely spot dodged their own projectile. Against Lucario, Samus, and Pit, you are bound to be juggled/ hit with another one. Samus has homing missiles, Pit has controllable arrows, and Lucario has a spammable wavy aura sphere. All three are very expendable and can really take apart a Falco with no jumps.

Sorry but, good Snake players don't get spiked by Falco. Period.

Chain grabs lead to a spike.

 

[§witch]

Wow Zanthos, your vision is so clouded by, either your need to have your name to a discovery, or just straight up bias towards this 'tech' you continue to pass off as chaingrab v 2.0. You don't seem to be able to comprehend how IFHS is not a better alternative for nigh any situation.

Shine does six damage, has zero combo potential, and lags to hell and back. There is absolutely nothing that IFHS can replace, moreover improving falco's metagame.

I appreciate all the effort you've put into this, but you've beaten this horse to death. You've been disproved on numerous occasions, yet you continue to make new threads, and write on essays on the effectiveness of IFHS. Continue to work with falco, try to discover something new, but when it becomes apparent that it isn't working out, just drop it and move on.

Thank you for the contribution; have a good day.

 

[Denzi]

*Shuts down Zanthos*

He's pretty much right, sorry.

You didn't mention that SHAD (short hop air dodge) and Grab (towards the end; platform above you) both work just as well/better that the IFHS to combat mortar slide. You also didn't mention that a lot of Snakes use MS simply as a quicker way to get to the edge when you are off stage, making this even moree situational.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

You know, for the most part, I've only seen people politely and intelligently argue with you. Who's "flaming" you? Apparently you define flaming as disagreeing. We're not *****. We don't want you to stop posting on the Falco boards. Quite the opposite. We like the input and contributions. We just have heard enough of this. You've made 2 threads about it now? You grave-digged Fluke's thread about reflectors just to post in it. You tried high-jacking Tommy G's thread about his Falco techs. Seriously, enough is enough.

It's situational at best, we've agreed to that. You've agreed to that. But provided the situation, there are significantly better, safer, easier alternatives. You say that Snake won't do his mortar slide once you properly execute this and punish him for it, but at the same time, Snake wouldn't constantly mortar slide if he got a laser in his face every time he tried it.

 

[J4pu]

NEW IDEA: since he won't listen to reason, and he won't stop promoting this "new" "tech", if you agree that it shouldn't be continuously talked about just stop posting in his threads, stop responding to IFHS posts, and just ignore them altogether, responding seems to just add fuel to the fire, so we should stop.

P.S. If he quotes you and somehow says how wrong you are or something, don't worry about it, just let it go and don't respond so this whole thing can just be done with ASAP.

I would love to have him stay on the falco boards if he is intelligently devoted to things, but if he's just gunna do this all the time perhaps it's better if he goes to the MK forums or something

 

[Lazee]

zanthos just let the thread die bro,yes its an at but its about as useless as mine was lol.
if you really feel so strongly about it,take it to tournaments,incorporate it into your game and actually own people with it and then maybe people will incorporate it into their game as well.as of right now your mostly theorycrafting,and thats only half of it. gg's on this discovery but i think most people here just simply need more out of it.