If you could re-legalize any stage, what would it be?

[Crawfiish]

Title

If I'm missing any stages that used to be legal, please let me know.

 

[AirFair]

Normally I would say Poke Floats just to be cool, but honestly, the floaties need somewhere to go that isn't Dreamland, so Mute City.

#SwitchBackToPeach (you know who I'm talking about)

 

[EPsilon933]

None. The neutral 6 are a good list

 

[Ringedge]

Brinstar so there is a stage that spacies are truly bad on as well as it is good in general for floaties.

 

[Solid411]

No love for Corneria? I'm surprised. It's a pretty basic stage.

 

[The Prince L]

ＬＥＧＡＬＩＺＥ ＰＯＫＥＦＬＯＡＴＳ

Seriously, that would be funny as heck if this stage was legalized.

 

[Vorde]

No love for Corneria? I'm surprised. It's a pretty basic stage.

With a weird shape and ships that shoot lasers at you, and have the potential to carry you up and off stage. Definitely should be legal...

 

[KevJames]

The closest to viability of the stages in my opinion would be Kongo Jungle 64. Decently normal stage. The barrel is what Randall is to Yoshi's Story. Unlike Randall, it cannot guarantee you getting back on stage if you fall in it because of the hitstun you receive once shot out of it, allowing for opponents to act accordingly. It would be fun to see how people can make use of certain angles with the Barrel.

 

[GspotMicrostock]

lol ＬＥＧＡＬＩＺＥ ＰＯＫＥＦＬＯＡＴＳ

i think the list is good. i wanted n64 yoshis story when i thought about it at first but within 3 minutes of messin around i realized there is a second cloud platform making the stage huuge. mushroom kingdom 2 would be great without birdo and the bird dude even tho they arent too horrible

 

[JediLink]

PokeFloats so ICs can become less viable.

 

[TehGuitarLord]

We need Fourside! Endless drill shine infinites, teching and immediately wall jumping out of many kills, and movement mixups on the ufo.

 

[anikom15]

Jungle Japes!

 

[N00B64]

either mute city or rainbow cruise. I don't think either of them are viable for singles, but I think they are good for doubles.

the Fzero machines in mutecity are annoying sure, but easily avoidable, electric flooring is great for combos and its just a great stage to look at and play on.

rainbow cruise Is great for fighting against people who like to be campy, the fight moves with the stage. it is very unlikly to be viable again though due to slower characers who don't have great recovery being bad on it. pokefloats would be a better option but really... just screw pokefloats.

 

[milligraham]

As much as I love corneria, I would have to have to say mute city or brinstar

 

[Mecha1]

Kongo Jungle 64 for me. In all honesty, I am not sure why that stage isn't allowed, but I am not that good a player (yet) so I guess that's not surprising. Would anyone care to explain?

 

[Stratocaster]

Here is a list of why many of the stages that are banned are banned (via XIF) which I think should be considered in this discussion:

Spoiler

* Brinstar

The lava comes up and generally makes a big mess of everything. Lava combos, lava saves, the fact you can't kill them off the bottom a good majority of the time really limits many characters killing potential. People like Mario absolutely need edge guards in order to kill people anywhere below like 150. The lava just makes it so his already uphill matchups like marth and space animals are just that much harder because he can't kill. Any character that NEEDS edgeguarding to be effective (bar Peach and Jiggs, for other reasons) cannot feasibly win on this stage. Not to mention that because you can go through the stage, people have so many more ways to make it back, but this is not really the issue.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8EEcpbOkxU (Zhu-Fox vs DSF-Puff)

This is all I really need to show. It shows how you can be in the middle of beating someone, and then get hit by the lava once and lose a stock because it decided to come up during your combo. The worst part is that the other two matches (which were on decidedly more fair stages) Zhu absolutely steamrolls DSF. If this had been a set with all neutrals, this would have never gone to third match.

* Corneria

Character advantages notwithstanding, arwings and wolfens fly in at random times, shoot randomly, and either help otherwise tame combos or break combos because it hits the person that was attacking. This in and of itself is reason enough to ban the stage. We all know about Fox and Falco's overwhelming advantage on the stage as well. The fin creates basically a wall with which the two can just run and camp, and then get stupid low percent kills. The other thing about thi stage specific with peach is that it moves up and down. This means that if Peach floats above the ground, depending on where it's moving, she will either rise up and mess up her spacing or hit the ground prematurely. I can't even begin to describe how catastrophic this is for peach if she even wants to consider floating for more than half a second.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeRaDqKGkN0 (Mango-Falco vs SS-CF)

This epitomizes how random elements can turn the match on it's head. Mango lost his first stock entirely because of the arwing laser, and Silent Spectre was a fraction of a second away from ending his a-a-a combo but slippy came in and blasted his ***, which gave Mango the winning 0 to death combo. Silent Spectre didnt have a chance after that.

* Green Greens

This stage is absolutely ridiculous, and i'm glad that most people here agree it should be banned. The blocks, bombs, and apples bring about absolutely absurd randomness to the point that the game becomes a farce. With money on the line, this stage has no business in a tournament setting. Besides this, Fox is just an overwhelming force on this stage, with his ridiculous vertical killing power, and the blocks give him ample opportunity to camp (or infinite half the cast! woohoo!)

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcL8NIXERXI (Marty-Peach and XIF-Fox vs SleepyK-Ganon and Laijin-Peach)

I need to enumerate all the random factors in order for anyone to make sense of it all.
0:35- Fox upsmashes Peach as a block comes down, something that would've been another hit becomes a stupid early kill.
1:56- Fox tries to ledge hop nair, but the block comes at that point and kills the momentum, causing fox to nair off the stage at 0.
3:09- Fox up smashes ganondorf, and instead of dying, ganon hits the side of one block and hits the bottom of the other, saving him.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo-mD2Kf3hE (Yayuhz-Fox vs Twitch-Fox)

6:53- shine knock down, instead of being a 50-50 mixup for the fox, turns into a guaranteed kill because the apple falls.
7:11- green fox bairs off the stage, and blue fox drops down for the shine, misses, and instead of being able to simply double jump back up, hits a block instead, forcing him to up B, and ultimately dying.

* Jungle Japes

Besides laser camping and the ridiculous ledge game Fox and Falco have... Klap traps. This is reason enough to warrant a ban. The river is also terrible, because half the cast has no chance of making it back if they get tapped down there once on the left/middle or far left from momentum alone.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVC8fnZbYVk (Linguini-Ganon vs I'veJihadIt-CF)

First few seconds Ivejihadit jabbed once and the klaptrap absolutely murders linguini. Other river shenanigans continue throughout the video.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UounHRMvbfM (HugS-Samus vs Edrees-Peach)
The first two stocks are there courtesy of mr. klaptrap once again. The last stock he gets hit, manages to tech, but can't recover because the river pulls him.

* Mushroom Kingdom II

Walk off edges just promote silly strategies such as wave shining, back throw fishing, and the such. Jiggs, Ganon, Fox, and Falco are seriously overpowered on this stage, because their aerials (or shines of the side/top for fox/falco respectively) can kill at very very early percents. Birdo comes out at random times and shoots eggs randomly, hitting people out of combos, allowing people to get killed, or general gimping in general.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiLzET8pYRk (Marty-Peach and XIF-Peach vs Iori-Ganon and Chad-Puff

at 0:55, peach gets jabbed by Ganondorf, ends up behind birdo as it's going off, and as he tech rolls forward, birdo pulls him off and kills him.

* Mute City

Without ledges, this overcentralizes the game into who has better edge guard capabilities, or who has the crappiest up B. Some character are simply not an option because they NEED to be able to grab the ledge in order to compete, and this includes Doc, Mario, Ganon, and Captain Falcon. Otherwise perfectly viable characters simply do not have the tools to compete, no matter the amount of adaptation or stage practice. Jigglypuff being too good on this stage is just the start. The cars are really what kills it. Being on a set pattern is hardly reason enoug for it to be fair. As scar has pointed out in other instances, the stage hazard here favors those that can actually control the air very well. Characters can only stay in the air so long, and it's not nearly long enough to stall out the cars if there's no platforms nearby, or at all, for alot of characters. Not to mention damage dealt by the cars is usually not in thanks to the opponent. It's free damage that required no thought and only serves to help a certain player.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOOGfYEwK70 (Ken-Marth vs PC Chris-Falco)

The classic. PC Chris vs Ken at MLG match 5 (for all the marbles basically). People like to concentrate on the ending (i'll get to that) but I think 1:45 deserves special mention. Basically PC Chris gets needlessly juggled for 46% for simply trying to recover back to the stage, because he just happened to be knocked off as the cars are coming. Instead of an already stupid situation where no ledges make recovery that hard, Ken gets a free 46% because he managed to land a hit that knocked him off 1 minute and 40 seconds into the match. Had this happened at 1 minute and 50 seconds instead, PC Chris would have come out relatively unscathed. You shouldn't get double rewarded for doing something at one time, as opposed to another because of the stage. And then immediately afterwards during Ken's combo on PC Chris, Ken lands an uptilt, and before he can do anything a car hits him, allowing PC Chris to come back down and punish him. (Wobbles: there's a clip for Combo Breaker!) And then there's the ending. We all know it so it hardly needs explaining. PC Chris manages to hit Ken with an uptilt, and what could have been a game ending combo turns into PC getting juggled for 50% (To be fair, Ken got hit for 20% as well, but it doesn't make it any less ********). The best part is that because Ken got hit (read: made a mistake) he avoided the first part of the cars that may have damaged him as well.

* Poké Floats

The amount of falling through pokemon glitches alone should be reason enough to warrant a ban. I know and have seen it happen on Seel and Snorlax, and I've heard about it on Venusaur and other as well. The main problem with the stage is that you have to move around and jump so much, characters with strong aerial games are heavily favored. As a good friend of mine who plays Roy put it, "You can learn the pattern and contemplate strategies all you want, but you can't make Roy's aerials any better." Some character excel in their ground game, and other in the air, and you've basically taken the ground out of the equation, and made it a nightmare for characters like Mario, Roy, etc to even land hits, let alone kill anyone. Aside from that, the low ceiling makes it so that Fox and Falco also have an overwhelming advantage on the stage. Other than that, opportune pokemon make appearances to cause stupid kills.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhg7-7Ou8JM (Azen-Luigi vs Mathos-Falco)

at 1:45, Mathos starts by showing off how overpowered Falco can be on this stage with a fairly early percent kill by shining off the top. As Luigi turns into a star, Sudowoodo comes in and lifts Azen off as he respawns, killing him again. Great right?

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1HF6tfbPM (Rice-Falco vs SmashMac-Doc)

Rice is able to shine smashmac's Doc off the top twice in the first 20 seconds, doing a combined total of 84% between the two stocks. This wouldn't be such a problem if Shine didn't come out in one frame. If this strategy had to be done with Bowser's up air, then it'd be a reasonable work around. Asking someone to avoid a one frame move is hardly a viable strategy.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJrZUulDCY0 (XIF-Peach vs Viperboy-Falco)

Even if it's in my favor, this is really dumb. 1:18 I forward air Viperboy into weezing, and he manages to tech it. But then his up B gets ganked by slowbro, netting me an undeserved kill. At 2:05, I down smash Viperboy, and instead of being able to attempt a recovery, Venusaur comes in at that precise moment off screen and spikes Viperboy. He couldn't even see what killed him, let alone tech off of it.

* Rainbow Cruise

Once again, the movement in this stage give characters with strong aerial game overwhelming advantages. And also once again the ceiling is so low that Fox and Falco have easy low percent kills that make it a nightmare to actually play against. Characters that absolutely cannot function on this stage range from Mario, doc, ICE CLIMBERS, Roy, Donkey Kong, etc. Once again, these are otherwise tournament viable characters that are effectively shut down for at least one round, netting the opponent free wins.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFY7dm6Ekf8 (Darkrain-CF vs Trail-Marth)

Here's a prime example as to how strong CP's can be for certain characters. Trail manages to beat Darkrain match 1 of the set using IC's. Darkrain displays his understanding of how powerful CP's can be by taking Trail to Rainbow Cruise. This is a notoriously bad stage for IC's, and Trail even comes out with his known secondary, Marth, which is basically the only suggestion thus far for combatting against CP stages. Darkrain proceeds to absolutely demolish Trail, continuing the set to game three, where darkrain barely wins. Now what stage exactly does Trail have to pick against Darkrain that gives him that same advantage? Mute? Lol getting knee'd once means Darkrain gets a free edge guard kill with IC's sorry recovery, to which admittedly IC's can do back, but the moving stage removes their CG, so at best it's even and at worst it's still in CF's favor. Corneria? Say hello to 70% knee kills. So here is an instance where characters and stage advantage/disadvantage played a large enough role that the player had no real answer for it. The stages introduced advantages to one character that the other character had no access to.

* Kongo Jungle 64

I'll keep this short and simple. Barrel allows for people to live from otherwise fatal hits. Barrel hogging isn't always an option due to character and position before the hit. There's also the power of certain characters on this stage make it nearly impossible to win for alot of people.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k (Pink Shinobi-Peach vs Rockcrock-Ganon)

This is just sad. Peach doesn't need this vs Ganondorf at all.

tldr;

Brinstar is banned because the lava luck can turn matches around. Edge-guarding is highly weakened and characters that depend on it are invalidated.

Corneria is banned because of a wall (camping/infinites), random attacking lasers, and ruining peach's float with the rise and fall.

Greens greens is banned because bomb blocks rain down and destroy you, create walls for infinites, and generally mess everything up.

Jungle Japes is banned because of Klap Traps. Though Fox/Falco being OP on this stage doesn't help.

Mushroom Kingdom 2 is banned because walk-off edges lead to ridiculously early kills from waveshines, back throws, etc. making many characters highly OP as well as removing edgeguarding.

Mute City's lack of ledges makes some characters with recoveries that need the ledge like Falcon basically dead off stage and is a really really hard counterpick. The cars don't help its case.

Poke Floats is banned because of glitchy pokemon you can fall through and Fox is incredibly OP on this stage between laser camping and up smash.

Rainbow Cruise is banned because of tiny blastzones and a focus on aerial play that invalidates certain characters that need to stay more grounded like ICs.

Kongo Jungle 64 is banned because of the Barrel and that you can go through bottom of the stage which changes edge-guarding dynamics, but its mostly banned because some characters can camp others really hard on this stage.

If I HAVE to pick I guess I'd pick Kongo Jungle 64 because it's a decent stage for most match-ups, and the match-ups it so heavily favors are match-ups that aren't that relevant or common anyway.

Mute City is just too strong of a counterpick that it makes some of Falcon's match-ups basically un-winnable (among others). Brinstar is too volatile with the lava. I like Japes fine as long as I'm the one playing spacies. I don't think the others are even worth considering IMO.

The current stage list is really good but I could live with KJ64 as a CP.

 

[AUS]

Kongo jungle 64 for me, no real hazards and while yes the barrel at the bottom does mess up edgeguarding you could say the same to Randal on Yoshi's Story. While yes some characters can camp very well on KJ64 I think it would still make for a fairly decent legal map in competitive.

 

[pershona]

Mute City so floaties can get better, and it also has music i enjoy so that's a plus.

 

[Boardwalk]

these are just some thought that i have. id love to hear some opinions and counter arguments

should stages be banned with individual character(s)/matchup(s) in mind?
i am trying to look at these stages without looking at potential advantages/disadvantages that certain characters might have.
i might however take into account if certain stages promote/prevent a character being able to camp with significatly reduced consequences or approach options.

Random
competitive games should ideally have no random components that might effect the outcome of the game
melee has a few character specific random components (turnips, G&W hammer, Luigi misfire) and these cannot really be removed from the game short of banning the character.


Brinstar

while the lava is random there are visual cues for the lava which give they player at least a full second to react to.
discourages ledge stalling
edge guarding might become more complicated with the lava, but the lava itself can set up huge damage combos
this stage i think would not be too terrible but because of the random lava it makes sense to ban

corneria

random lasers
separated area to encourage camping
BANNED

Green Greens

this stage speaks for itself
BANNED

Jungle Japes

the side platforms make camping really easy
klap trap is random but it can be paid attention to
the only stage hazard is in a position that you should already not be
not the worst but still Banned

Mushroom Kingdom 2

walk-offs
BANNED

Mute City

no ledges
random cars/ large number of stage hazards
not terrible the car

Poke Floats/ Rainbow Cruise

i will group these together because of how similar they are
im not really sure how often falling through pokemon is a problem so i wont comment on that
decreases effectiveness of ledgestalling
no random events
these stage heavily modify how the neutral game takes place and stage positioning.
definitely not perfectly balanced stages but honestly not as bad as it first appears

Kongo Jungle 64

i am not sure if the barrel is random or if it follows a fixed schedule like randal on yoshis
either way i do not think it is a huge game changing factor due to the hitstun of being shot out of the barrel and barrel hogging
it is a large stage with a high ceiling.
the ability to recover through the bottom of the stage is an interesting factor but not to OP
the stages large size does could make camping easier
i think this stage should not be banned

Pokemon Stadium

random stage transformations
you are notified of the next stage coming but the transformation itself is usually enough to disrupt combos
transformations themselves are not good either
with multiple transformations having areas that are easy to camp/stall in
due to the random events of pokemon stadium i believe it should be banned

again these are my opinions and not fool proof logic
you will notice that i did not mention any character names as reasons for or against any stages.
players in tournament are allowed to change their character after the stage has been selected.
if somebody can argue that a certain character has an almost undeafatable strategy against a large number or characters on a certain stage that could change my opinion about character influence
the argument of fox infinite wallshine or falco easy shine off the top as being grounds for banning a stage should easily agree with me that pokemon stadium should be banned