If you could make major alterations to any character(s), what would they be?

[Mordecai Hazard]

1.) Remove insane end lag from his down air.
2.) Bring double F-air back
3.) Melee Marth grab range back (lol)

1.) Flash man ability,
2.) Leaf shield less start and end lag
3.) Lagless B-air

1.) One word, Patch 1.1.5

1.) Up-B buff

1.) Infinite Levin sword
2.) Faster run speed

1.) More easier to punish spindash

 

[MasterZaden]

GANONDORF

Okay, so I did come up with some ideas based on Ocarina of Time.

Over the years, Ganondorf has slowly been separated from his Captain Falcon clone-ness of Melee, but in my opinion, this process is not happening fast enough. He just doesn't feel like the Great King of Evil he is in the Legend of Zelda games, and there could be some more changes that happen.

Jab
-This move is much too slow in Brawl and Smash 4, making Ganondorf simply not have any fast offensive techniques for close range, even though other heavy characters have faster options. It was changed from Melee, even though even in Melee it was a unique animation not shared by Captain Falcon. His Melee animation made more sense as a jab anyway, since he attacks with his front-foot arm of his sideways stance, whereas his current animation, he reaches across his whole body with his back-foot arm. It should be a jab, not a cross-punch, and he really needs it in his toolkit.

F-tilt
-This is a great move, coming straight from Twilight Princess, making it a canon Ganondorf attack. It's great and should stay.

Up-tilt
-Although I actually like the whole Volcano Kick idea, the fact that it is in his move list as his Up-tilt is crippling to his ground/combo game in that he does not have an Up-tilt as other characters have them. In one Project M mod, someone made a Ganondorf pac where this axe kick could immediately strike, slightly slower than Captain Falcon's, but still a reasonable move, OR it could be held for full Volcano Kick glory. Being able to hold his Up-tilt to charge was such a simple change that worked SO well.

However, my idea would be to use his current Up-Smash animation as his Up-tilt, but make it faster and snappier. It gives him coverage above his head that other characters with normal Up-tilts have that he does not have.

D-tilt
-I never liked this "I'll reach out and tap you with my toe in an over-extending position that doesn't even look like it would hurt the average person's shin bone." Many people use this as a follow-up to his Flame Choke, so it would make sense to make it some kind of ground stomp in front of him. Either that or a reaching low roundhouse that actually looks like it could do some damage instead of his current trashy boot animation.

Up-Smash
-Both ideas I have for this move involve him drawing his sword. One is a very close move to Ike's Up-Smash, since that hugely powerful, slow move makes sense for Ganondorf's build in this game. He'd draw his sword during the charge up, and put it away at the end since the sword ends up at his back during Ike's animation, and Ganondorf keeps his sheath on his back.

The other idea would be like Roy's Smash 4 Up-Smash, but replace the fire effects with lightning. This move would be similar to his Special Attack in Hyrule Warriors where he raises his sword and lightning strikes it.

F-Smash
-His current Warlock Punch animation would make a nice forward smash attack, or his Up-tilt Volcano Kick (chargable since it's a smash), seeing as it essentially hits in front of him instead of above him.

D-Smash
-I always liked how Ganondorf's D-smash functioned in his toolkit, and I like the two-hit idea. However, I'd like for it to have a different animation to de-clone him from Falcon, keeping the same hit function. For example, look at Ike or Mii Gunner's Down Smash. Those shots from Mii Gunner's arm cannon could be blasts of magic.

N-air
-Gerudo Karate!!!... no. I'd make his Nair have a rather spinny animation and function exactly as his current Up-air does. His Up-air is a staple move and would feel even better as a Nair, and this is a really silly move to share an animation with Captain Falcon.

Up-air
-This move's function went to his Nair, so you could give him a slower, reliable kill-off-the-top move like Zelda has. Could be a huge swinging kick or a magic blast like Zelda.

F-air
-This move always seemed slower to me in Smash 4 than it did in Melee and Brawl, and it makes Ganondorf even more sluggish and hard to land a hit. As someone who plays as other heavy characters, Charizard and Bowser, having a fast claw strike like they do is very, VERY important to their tool kit, however, Ganondorf's Fair doesn't really need to change if his Nair is good enough to land combo hits.

D-air
-This to me is a staple move that makes Ganondorf Ganondorf and should never change.

B-air
-Honestly I have no good ideas.

And he could FLOAT LIKE PEACH, feet dangling below him with his arms crossed, just like the fight in Ocarina of Time. Come on, this character has such awful recovery for a character WHO CAN FLY in the very first game he was introduced! I realized taking Peaches float and putting it on a character like Ganon would make an INSANE edge-guarding machine, but... come on, he's bottom tier. What's the worst that could happen, he moves to mid-tier?

(More to come...)

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Edit: cannot get image
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

 

[Dr.Megaman]

-Give him pre patch side B
-Make all hits of his up b connect

He's fine as he is, these just little things that I want.

 

[Nah]

Robin could afford to have some adjustments done to the durability and recharge times for his tomes and Levin Sword.

https://smashboards.com/threads/426052/page-72#post-21609306

Tome durability and recharge time is not really a problem for Robin and idk why so many people think that. They all come back fast enough that it's not an issue (Nosferatu takes forever to come back but that's fine, it's not as critical to her play as the other tomes+Levin Sword are), you can live for the 7-12 seconds it takes for them to come back.

Things that would be of more benefit to the character without turning her into bull**** would be like:

-Change jumpsquat frames from 7 to 5
-Make Arcfire keep people inside it the whole time so you can always follow-up rather than people sometimes falling out of it
-Make Elwind always shoot two wind blades regardless of durability so you don't have that dumb situation where you're trying to recover and it only shoots the first, causing you to die
-Change hitboxes and/or active frames on Utilt so it functions as an anti-air
-Somehow, if possible, change jab so both wind and fire versions function like they did during their glory days, but at the same time, and reduce transition frames between each hit

Of course, none of this changes the fact that ****ty mobility, lack of OoS options, average at best frame data, and silly clanking mechanics significantly hold the character back, but if we changed all those things the character would be a monster.

....but then again we have plenty of monsters in this game, what's one more?

He's fine as he is

you're kidding right

Mac is not fine

Mac is a load of polarized bull****

He has these completely ****ing absurd ground buttons with an unnecessary instant kill move but almost literally has no recovery or aerial options and has a 90:10 MU vs platforms in a game where offstage+aerial combat+platforms are a large component of the game

the **** is fine about that

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

you're kidding right

Mac is not fine

Mac is a load of polarized bull****

He has these completely ****ing absurd ground buttons with an unnecessary instant kill move but almost literally has no recovery or aerial options and has a 90:10 MU vs platforms in a game where offstage+aerial combat+platforms are a large component of the game

the **** is fine about that

Well, mac has never been an air fighter. I know that that is a generic thing to say, but this is all a part of character balancing. Ice Climbers chaingrab is annoying for any character, but there are ways to counter this. The same can be said with Little Mac and platforms. Protect your weaknesses and you will succeed.

 

[SaltyKracka]

ce Climbers chaingrab is annoying for any character, but there are ways to counter this. The same can be said with Little Mac and platforms. Protect your weaknesses and you will succeed.

...You should probably choose a different analogy, seeing as Brawl ICs were utter polarizing cancer utilizing a cancerous mechanic that was one of the major reasons that Brawl was such a competitive failure. The existence of chaingrabs, and especially the IC's chaingrabs, was an instance of absolutely terrible design that should never be repeated, ever.

And yes, Mac's design is terrible as well. It's just not IC chaingrabs polarizing.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

We brainstormed on the character boards, what we all agreed that needed something to make him better. We also agreed on the same thing in regards to what he needed which is something certain characters take for granted: better traction. This gives zard a vicious OOS game that will improve his position on the tier charts.

 

[DPKdebator]

1. More damage on every move
2. Sliiightly faster and better jump
3. Super Jump Punch goes a tad higher
4. Tornado is easier to mash to gain height

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Tome durability and recharge time is not really a problem for Robin and idk why so many people think that. They all come back fast enough that it's not an issue (Nosferatu takes forever to come back but that's fine, it's not as critical to her play as the other tomes+Levin Sword are), you can live for the 7-12 seconds it takes for them to come back.

Things that would be of more benefit to the character without turning her into bull**** would be like:

-Change jumpsquat frames from 7 to 5
-Make Arcfire keep people inside it the whole time so you can always follow-up rather than people sometimes falling out of it
-Make Elwind always shoot two wind blades regardless of durability so you don't have that dumb situation where you're trying to recover and it only shoots the first, causing you to die
-Change hitboxes and/or active frames on Utilt so it functions as an anti-air
-Somehow, if possible, change jab so both wind and fire versions function like they did during their glory days, but at the same time, and reduce transition frames between each hit

Of course, none of this changes the fact that ****ty mobility, lack of OoS options, average at best frame data, and silly clanking mechanics significantly hold the character back, but if we changed all those things the character would be a monster.

....but then again we have plenty of monsters in this game, what's one more?


you're kidding right

Mac is not fine

Mac is a load of polarized bull****

He has these completely ****ing absurd ground buttons with an unnecessary instant kill move but almost literally has no recovery or aerial options and has a 90:10 MU vs platforms in a game where offstage+aerial combat+platforms are a large component of the game

the **** is fine about that

1.) Git Gud (pls no warning/ban mods)
2.) Learn the Matchup
3.) Mac/Palu has the most results out of all the bottom tiers. Is he still "bad" now?
4.) Mac's aerials can lead to kill confirms, combo strings, frame traps, and his dair resets. Nair can be used to escape combos.
5.) Mac's only "bad" stage is duck hunt. Plus platforms can help give early kills with Mac, down tilt up b kills.

 

[Nah]

1.) Git Gud (pls no warning/ban mods)
2.) Learn the Matchup
3.) Mac/Palu has the most results out of all the bottom tiers. Is he still "bad" now?
4.) Mac's aerials can lead to kill confirms, combo strings, frame traps, and his dair resets. Nair can be used to escape combos.
5.) Mac's only "bad" stage is duck hunt. Plus platforms can help give early kills with Mac, down tilt up b kills.

You did not understand my post, try again

I did not say what I said out of salt, nor am I saying that Mac is a "bad" character....he's just horribly designed and I don't know how anyone looks at the character and does not agree

Also good luck hitting those aerials against a competent opponent. And how is Duck Hunt his only bad stage, what are you gonna do if I decide to platform camp you on Battlefield or something?

 

[MarioMeteor]

3.) Mac/Palu has the most results out of all the bottom tiers. Is he still "bad" now?

Being the best-smelling hunk of **** isn't really something to be proud of. It's still a hunk of ****. Just pointing that out.

 

[Manabu]

1.) Git Gud (pls no warning/ban mods)
2.) Learn the Matchup
3.) Mac/Palu has the most results out of all the bottom tiers. Is he still "bad" now?
4.) Mac's aerials can lead to kill confirms, combo strings, frame traps, and his dair resets. Nair can be used to escape combos.
5.) Mac's only "bad" stage is duck hunt. Plus platforms can help give early kills with Mac, down tilt up b kills.

Mac and Palu are far for being bottom or bad chars

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Mac and Palu are far for being bottom or bad chars

EXACTLY. Please excuse my cap locks, that's what I'm trying to say.

Being the best-smelling hunk of **** isn't really something to be proud of. It's still a hunk of ****. Just pointing that out.

All I'm saying is, they're not bad.

You did not understand my post, try again

I did not say what I said out of salt, nor am I saying that Mac is a "bad" character....he's just horribly designed and I don't know how anyone looks at the character and does not agree

Also good luck hitting those aerials against a competent opponent. And how is Duck Hunt his only bad stage, what are you gonna do if I decide to platform camp you on Battlefield or something?

So you can't short up fair at two perfect pivot up tilts at low percents? You obviously haven't played a good Mac that implements those.
I do agree with the fact that he was designed bad. What's stopping me from already having the percent lead or playing patiently?

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

So you can't short up fair at two perfect pivot up tilts at low percents? You obviously haven't played a good Mac that implements those.
I do agree with the fact that he was designed bad. What's stopping me from already having the percent lead or playing patiently?

I've seen some macs combo footstool into up B, and also use fair to edgeguard me (which I then questioned all my life choices) But if I have learned anything, for the most part, PLAY DEFENSIVE. Agressive macs get sheilded then punished 60% of the time.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

I've seen some macs combo footstool into up B, and also use fair to edgeguard me (which I then questioned all my life choices) But if I have learned anything, for the most part, PLAY DEFENSIVE. Agressive macs get sheilded then punished 60% of the time.

Yes, defensive Mac is the most optimal way to play him.

 

[Cyn]

Please try and avoid consecutively multi posting. Use the edit button to add to your thoughts instead of posting back to back posts. Thanks.

 

[MarioMeteor]

All I'm saying is, they're not bad.

That's debatable. I personally don't have an opinion on either character, but there's definitely a problem when I can win by just using platforms. Or a back throw. Or a windbox.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

That's debatable. I personally don't have an opinion on either character, but there's definitely a problem when I can win by just using platforms. Or a back throw. Or a windbox.

I agree but the character still gets results

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can probably bring up a few things for Ganondorf...

1: Make Dark Dive be more effective as an attack.
2: Improve Warlock Thrust so that it's much more usable. It's practically trash right now.
3: Wizard's Assault should've been more powerful if its start-up lag is long.

 

[Manabu]

Do you think Ganon would be better if he has the Warlock Blade as his neutral-b?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Do you think Ganon would be better if he has the Warlock Blade as his neutral-b?

The funny thing is, I actually took some time to buff up Warlock Blade. With my edits, the sweetspot is stronger than Warlock Punch, but the sourspot deals far less knockback, and is less damaging as well. Also, the attack is not any stronger in the air, so its power won't change if you manage to pull off an aerial Warlock Blade.

Anyway, Warlock Punch has the advantage in that it has no sourspots, so landing it will always deliver strong results. Warlock Blade is a larger gambit, since the sourspots won't give you favorable results, and you need to time your attack distance more strictly.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Of course, that's all irrelevant; the Warlock's everything are utter trash moves based on flat ******** design.