If you could make major alterations to any character(s), what would they be?

[Bob]

Assuming this is a competitive scenario, what would your changes be? It can be anything from a Melee Rest to minor speed buffs. Discuss it all here!

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

& 's respective side smashes can stand a 50% ending lag reduction. 's smash attacks, a 35% end lag reduction. I'd be happy with only these modifications.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

For charizard increase his air speed to give him more options. Even if this doesn't give him a fast fall it will open up combo opportunities on moves that zard didn't have before.

 

[FruitDealer]

I would decrease the range of Mario's cape.

 

[MasterZaden]

Okay, so we're talking major alterations. I would totally revamp Falco. He would personally prefer the air and would have Jigglypuff's airspeed and jumps, but would fall slightly faster. His ground moves would be greatly nerfed, taking away many kill options while grounded and instead repurposing his ground game into pop-ups that start aerial combos. His aerials would be buffed for insane walls-of-pain style combos. His Side-B would change animation from dashing forward to actual flight, and make a better recovery move than whatever his Up+B would be. His blaster would be mostly unchanged on the ground, but in the air could fire bursts as fast as Fox's. This would be overpowered with his current blaster hit stun, so maybe nerf the hit stun and/or damage to compensate as needed, and definitely make the landing lag punishable if you actually land while in the firing animation to punish unskilled, cheesy spammers.

Optionally, instead of having Fox's firing speed in the air, you could have a special animation where he pulls out two blasters and fires two shots each time with his normal firing speed that only works in the air.

In this current build, his meteors would have to be nerfed as well. You can imagine how broken it would be if Jigglypuff could spike like Falco in the middle of a wall of pain, yes? His Side-B and D-air could send them downward but not as strong as he can currently smash them. Also flying/gliding was a fun mechanic in Brawl. Falco is a bird.

His D-air would have that insane lasting hitbox in Melee, but not hit nearly as hard and with less hit stun and less landing lag. This would mean you could pillar combo on-stage with it to rack up damage, but not spike for a kill off-stage until they are at much higher percents, because having Jigglypuff's aerial mobility takes virtually all the risk out of going for a spike that Falco usually has.

This Falco prefers the air and is like the opposite of Little Mac. No kill power on the ground, but very strong combo and kill game when he pops them in the air. N-air and F-air and potentially D-air if you are falling fast would string together for combos, and his kill moves would be B-air, U-air to kill off the top, and Up-B and Side-B.

Lastly, screw the Landmaster and give him a clone of Zero Suit Samus's Final Smash, but firing an Arwing's Hyper Lasers. You could have an Arwing Final Smash similar to say Yoshi or Charizard, but for coding purposes, ZSS's would be easier to just clone and I'd be happy. As long as he isn't proclaiming his preference for air combat while getting in a ground vehicle. I hated that.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Make viable.

Buff the fundamental area of his moveset (normals and grab).

I would reduce the end lag on Neutral B by 1-2 frames.

I would reduce the ending lag on Bair, Dsmash, Usmash, and Dair by 5-6 frames

I would increase the hitbox sizes of Utilt, Fair, Dtilt, and Dair significantly.

I would increase the knock back on Fair, Bair, Dair, and Ftilt moderately,

I would make the active frames on Grab start earlier and last throughout the move til the tractor beam starts to recede.

Then make most of his normals deal 2-3% more damage.

 

[Kapus]

I always thought Zelda would be cool if she had her sword.

Also I'd buff the hell out of Shulk with his frame data issues.

 

[Bob]

Okay, so we're talking major alterations. I would totally revamp Falco. He would personally prefer the air and would have Jigglypuff's airspeed and jumps, but would fall slightly faster. His ground moves would be greatly nerfed, taking away many kill options while grounded and instead repurposing his ground game into pop-ups that start aerial combos. His aerials would be buffed for insane walls-of-pain style combos. His Side-B would change animation from dashing forward to actual flight, and make a better recovery move than whatever his Up+B would be. His blaster would be mostly unchanged on the ground, but in the air could fire bursts as fast as Fox's. This would be overpowered with his current blaster hit stun, so maybe nerf the hit stun and/or damage to compensate as needed, and definitely make the landing lag punishable if you actually land while in the firing animation to punish unskilled, cheesy spammers.

Optionally, instead of having Fox's firing speed in the air, you could have a special animation where he pulls out two blasters and fires two shots each time with his normal firing speed that only works in the air.

In this current build, his meteors would have to be nerfed as well. You can imagine how broken it would be if Jigglypuff could spike like Falco in the middle of a wall of pain, yes? His Side-B and D-air could send them downward but not as strong as he can currently smash them. Also flying/gliding was a fun mechanic in Brawl. Falco is a bird.

His D-air would have that insane lasting hitbox in Melee, but not hit nearly as hard and with less hit stun and less landing lag. This would mean you could pillar combo on-stage with it to rack up damage, but not spike for a kill off-stage until they are at much higher percents, because having Jigglypuff's aerial mobility takes virtually all the risk out of going for a spike that Falco usually has.

This Falco prefers the air and is like the opposite of Little Mac. No kill power on the ground, but very strong combo and kill game when he pops them in the air. N-air and F-air and potentially D-air if you are falling fast would string together for combos, and his kill moves would be B-air, U-air to kill off the top, and Up-B and Side-B.

Lastly, screw the Landmaster and give him a clone of Zero Suit Samus's Final Smash, but firing an Arwing's Hyper Lasers. You could have an Arwing Final Smash similar to say Yoshi or Charizard, but for coding purposes, ZSS's would be easier to just clone and I'd be happy. As long as he isn't proclaiming his preference for air combat while getting in a ground vehicle. I hated that.

That actually sounds nice! I could probably program that, but not in Sm4sh (due to unsophisticated moveset editors and no animation editors), so I'd have to do it in Brawl, however, as a concept, that's amazing. I could imagine Falco flapping his wings for his jumping animations. In regards to the Landmaster, I think the reason he says that is because he didn't have a choice; he had to use the Landmaster. At best, he was able to optimize it for aerial combat, but he couldn't swap out his designated vehicle.

Make viable.

Buff the fundamental area of his moveset (normals and grab).

I would reduce the end lag on Neutral B by 1-2 frames.

I would reduce the ending lag on Bair, Dsmash, Usmash, and Dair by 5-6 frames

I would increase the hitbox sizes of Utilt, Fair, Dtilt, and Dair significantly.

I would increase the knock back on Fair, Bair, Dair, and Ftilt moderately,

I would make the active frames on Grab start earlier and last throughout the move til the tractor beam starts to recede.

Then make most of his normals deal 2-3% more damage.

This sounds good. It's rather conservative, however I think that it would help balance out some of Pac-Man's weaker traits (such as fair and dair). I'm rather surprised you didn't suggest any trajectory changes, however.

I always thought Zelda would be cool if she had her sword.

Also I'd buff the hell out of Shulk with his frame data issues.

I think that having a Sword-Attack would make for a better Down-B than Phantom; I could imagine it having more offensive uses while still being powerful. As for Shulk, he's an interesting case, as he has both a great strength and major flaw in his range and speed respectively. I think an optimal Shulk should only have slight reductions in endlag; just enough to comfortably allow for more combos, but not enough to make him Corrin or Long-Ranged Sheik.

 

[MasterZaden]

That actually sounds nice! I could probably program that, but not in Sm4sh (due to unsophisticated moveset editors and no animation editors), so I'd have to do it in Brawl, however, as a concept, that's amazing. I could imagine Falco flapping his wings for his jumping animations. In regards to the Landmaster, I think the reason he says that is because he didn't have a choice; he had to use the Landmaster. At best, he was able to optimize it for aerial combat, but he couldn't swap out his designated vehicle.

I still have an interest in Project M. If you make an Air Falco, could you link me in a private message?

 

[Bob]

I still have an interest in Project M. If you make an Air Falco, could you link me in a private message?

Making one for PM might take awhile, but I should be able to pull it off with enough time.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Increasing the duration of certain Final Smashes would be pretty handy. Some Final Smashes just don't last long enough for you to take advantage of them.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I'd make it so all of 's aerials autocancel 10 frames before their respective FAF.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Alright, these are the things that I would change:

Mewtwo: revamp side tilt. Down tilt is just a better version of this lame attack

Jigglypuff: increase running speed, shorten arial animations by 2 frames, besides bair

Bayonetta: get rid of some priority on down tilt

Meta Knight: increase knockback on uairs, increase damage on tornado

Diddy Kong: reduce bair knockback

Bowser Jr: make dthrow a decent combo throw and bthrow a more reliable option at 125-150%

 

[Potatotatop]

Buff his down B for less lag, and I'm alright with that.

's Cape on 's Final Cutter is the most annyoing reflect moment ever.

 

[MasterZaden]

I would Make Ganondorf Ganondorf Again.

 

[JayE]

Give 's Dolphin Slash kill with the tipper, and give it its old strong reverse hitbox
Make 's missiles a lot better. Faster, stronger, and maybe even autocancel like in Melee

Give a useful attack with his Hylian Shield.

Reduce Luma's knockback
Give his old down tilt

 

[Zerp]

Undo literally every buff that's been given out to the cast and then give the equivalent of all those buffs combined for a week. It'd only be fair that Jigglypuff gets to deliver justice to all those that stole our would-be buffs! /s

 

[MarioMeteor]

- Lower his gravity and falling speed. Roy has the potential to have one of the best air games in Smash 4, the only thing is he falls faster than Sonic fell from glory.

- Undo every nerf except for the Cyclone nerf. Luigi was never good enough to warrant a nerf, and he's incredibly mediocre now.

- For the love of God, make him faster. Doc would be an infinitely better character if he didn't move like he's in permanent Witch Time.


- Make her up throw about as strong as Lucas's. Jigglypuff badly needs a reliable way to finish off people that doesn't involve going to sleep for 5 seconds.

Increasing the duration of certain Final Smashes would be pretty handy. Some Final Smashes just don't last long enough for you to take advantage of them.

"Oh hell yeah, I'm Giga Bowser, time to fu- what do you mean I'm out of time?!"

 

[JayE]

- Undo every nerf except for the Cyclone nerf. Luigi was never good enough to warrant a nerf, and he's incredibly mediocre now.

I think Luigi is fine how he is now. Sure, he isn't Top 5 anymore but he's still great. He still has a potent and strong combo game and gets kills relatively easily. Have you seen Elegant's Luigi? Crazy good.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

The ability to L-cancel aerial attacks for each character. Characters like or even can benefit from that. Now, I know Smash 4's competitive scene is going strong thus far, but it is no wonder that L-cancelling is in a very long list of reasons why Melee smokes the other Smash installments. Not that there's anything with N64, Brawl, and 4, mind you.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The ability to L-cancel aerial attacks for each character. Characters like or even can benefit from that. Now, I know Smash 4's competitive scene is going strong thus far, but it is no wonder that L-cancelling is in a very long list of reasons why Melee smokes the other Smash installments. Not that there's anything with N64, Brawl, and 4, mind you.

Yes, because if there's one thing that people love it's random needless complexity jammed into every available orifice of the game that they are playing. That's just inspired game design, that is.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

"Oh hell yeah, I'm Giga Bowser, time to fu- what do you mean I'm out of time?!"

It's even more insulting when you realize that Giga Bowser's power is inferior to that of a giant-sized Bowser. Giant Bowser's f-smash can potentially make 1-hit KOs on even the heaviest fighters when fully charged. Giga Bowser's f-smash doesn't even come close to 1-hit KOing the lightest fighters, even when fully charged.

I actually spent some time fixing up Giga Bowser so that he's back to being the actual beast that we all loathed in Melee. One example is buffing up the f-smash so that a fully charged hit with the head can KO even the heaviest fighters at 0% damage. Even the Flying Slam and Bowser Bomb have been strengthened as well. However, some moves and events did have to have their knockback values nerfed.

And to add to the buffs, the Final Smash duration gets increased to 1200 frames. Stronger and longer lasting, you definitely don't want any opposing Bowser players to snatch any Smash Balls, or else you could be in for a good thrashing if there are no Super Stars around to make you invincible.

 

[MasterZaden]

Why do people think L-cancelling is a good mechanic? Or wave-dashing? They are not good mechanics. What is good is having less landing lag. You shouldn't need to press a button to ukemi like this is Tekken. It's Smash, fun and favorite for casuals and competitives alike. Just give the characters less landing lag. Jumping up and throwing your body against the ground awkwardly after your jump squat so you slide in a way that looks like you're zipping across the ground on your knees in order to keep your attack options open is also a dumb mechanic. Just make it so your character has better attack options out of their mobility.

 

[L9999]

Rework Bair, Nair and Fair to be consistently powerful and be kill moves.
Undo some of his Brawl nerfs so he can be good again.
Undo the nerfs from Brawl and 3DS so DDD is worth playing.
Give him an actual neutral B so he can force approaches and put his good punishers to good use.
Cutting off frames on his jumpsquat, more kill power on Fair, making his foward throw set up tech chases, severely increase pummel speed, make Ftilt a kill move, make Up Throw a killer throw so Up Throw can have a purpose, and making Dtilt combo instead of setting up reads.

Why do people think L-cancelling is a good mechanic? Or wave-dashing? They are not good mechanics. What is good is having less landing lag. You shouldn't need to press a button to ukemi like this is Tekken. It's Smash, fun and favorite for casuals and competitives alike. Just give the characters less landing lag. Jumping up and throwing your body against the ground awkwardly after your jump squat so you slide in a way that looks like you're zipping across the ground on your knees in order to keep your attack options open is also a dumb mechanic. Just make it so your character has better attack options out of their mobility.

Most people who advocate for those mechanics would rather break their hands than having things made simplier, under the belief that it makes the game deeper.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I'm debating whether needs to be nerfed or not. The banana and peanuts make his range crazy. I've noticed his combo which I have dubbed the hee-hee, being dthrow to multiple bairs, which can rack up damage quickly. His fair comes out fast, and is an excellent spacing tool. He even has a easy-to-hit meteor. I understand the hoo-hah nerf really set a lot of diddy mains back, but he is still top tier and can render anything less than mid-tier helpless

 

[Emblem Lord]

For reduce recovery frames on hadouken and make it transcendent. It has way too much recovery and not enough reward. Not to mention it is far too easy to deal with. Many characters can either crawl under it, duck under, or reflect it. And EVERYONE can just jab it. These changes would make a useless attack into a solid tool and there would still be good counter play behind it. Would not break the character at all.

 

[MarioMeteor]

the hee-hee,

I'm so stealing this. The Hoo-Ha and the Hee-Hee, that's perfect.

On the subject of Diddy, I think that he should be nerfed, but slightly. Increase the ending lag of down tilt and the animation of his banana toss and he'll be fine.

 

[Crystanium]

Charge Shot

• Capable of running while shooting like in every Metroid game.
• Faster rate of fire like in every Metroid game.
• Charge slightly faster.
• If charging is interrupted with an attack or grab, the charge should remain where it was last.

Missiles

• Auto-cancel homing missiles like in Melee and Brawl.
• More precise homing. It's good, but it could be better.
• Super missiles can KO like in Melee.

Bombs

• Bombs should detonate on contact like in Melee.
• Fully charged Charge Shot should allow Samus to drop five bombs, but use up the charged Charge Shot. Can only be used on the ground. A single bomb will drop as is in the air.

Screw Attack

• My brother tells me that Screw Attack should have a wind effect (more accurately a vacuum effect) to draw nearby opponents into the Screw Attack, since it has a habit of nicking the opponent at times, leaving Samus vulnerable.
• Screw Attack should be directional. Not only has Samus always been able to move in any direction, even SA-X, a perfect copy of Samus, can charge at Samus with the Screw Attack in a horizontal direction.
• Screw Attack should not leave Samus vulnerable, but allow for her to break out of this invulnerable state and jump again like Bayonetta.

Grab

• If Samus is near her opponent, she shouldn't use the Grapple Beam, but rather perform a grab like she would in Metroid: Other M.
• Samus' grab should be faster. Look how fast this thing comes out and goes away.
• Back throw should be a kill.

Neutral Non-special

• Make Samus' jab better. I'm not asking to increase it beyond 3%. Just give it some damn hit stun.

Speed

• Trade Samus' speed with Zero Suit Samus' speed. It's obvious that the power suit improves all of Samus' athletic abilities. Oh, and you know, the ****ing speed booster?

Jumps

• Give Samus at least an extra jump. Why does Pit, who cannot even fly, get more jumps than Samus, who can?

That's all I have for now.

 

[Bob]

Yes, because if there's one thing that people love it's random needless complexity jammed into every available orifice of the game that they are playing. That's just inspired game design, that is.

Don't start. This is designed to be a fun discussion. Take any Melee hate to the Sm4sh Social Thread.

Anyways, I'd probably revert Mewtwo to his Melee iteration. He got some good buffs in 4, however, I feel that his main source of viability stems more from the engine than the character himself. I'd still buff his F-Throw and Confusion, however. There is a certain property in the game's code that could allow Confusion to retain it's angleless properties while still inflicting hitstun, I think that he could benefit from that.

It's even more insulting when you realize that Giga Bowser's power is inferior to that of a giant-sized Bowser. Giant Bowser's f-smash can potentially make 1-hit KOs on even the heaviest fighters when fully charged. Giga Bowser's f-smash doesn't even come close to 1-hit KOing the lightest fighters, even when fully charged.

I actually spent some time fixing up Giga Bowser so that he's back to being the actual beast that we all loathed in Melee. One example is buffing up the f-smash so that a fully charged hit with the head can KO even the heaviest fighters at 0% damage. Even the Flying Slam and Bowser Bomb have been strengthened as well. However, some moves and events did have to have their knockback values nerfed.

And to add to the buffs, the Final Smash duration gets increased to 1200 frames. Stronger and longer lasting, you definitely don't want any opposing Bowser players to snatch any Smash Balls, or else you could be in for a good thrashing if there are no Super Stars around to make you invincible.

I think that the main problem with Giga Bowser is that they made him into a "character" rather than a Final Smash. Giga Bowser was never meant to be balanced--In fact, the very nature of him was that he was unbalanced. I also find it both creative and lazy that they kept all of his Brawl animations, almost as though his very existence was but an afterthought.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Don't start. This is designed to be a fun discussion. Take any Melee hate to the Sm4sh Social Thread.

I don't have any hate for Melee. It is what it is. Trying to take the properties of Melee and shove them into other games as though they were good design principles irks me, though.

 

[Bob]

I don't have any hate for Melee. It is what it is. Trying to take the properties of Melee and shove them into other games as though they were good design principles irks me, though.

"as though they were good design"
But "good design" is a subjective matter.The only way one can determine what a "good design" is, is if we, collectively, as one unit, come to a unanimous design that [subject] is a good design, but since that scenario will never happen, it's up to the individual, and a lot of people like those techniques, equally as many as those who dislike them.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think that the main problem with Giga Bowser is that they made him into a "character" rather than a Final Smash. Giga Bowser was never meant to be balanced--In fact, the very nature of him was that he was unbalanced. I also find it both creative and lazy that they kept all of his Brawl animations, almost as though his very existence was but an afterthought.

What's more ironic is when you start comparing giant Little Mac to Giga Mac. Even when giant-sized, Little Mac still deals less damage overall than Giga Mac; giant Little Mac's full power Straight Lunge only deals around 39% damage, while Giga Mac's full power Straight Lunge deals up to 50% damage.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

What's more ironic is when you start comparing giant Little Mac to Giga Mac. Even when giant-sized, Little Mac still deals less damage overall than Giga Mac; giant Little Mac's full power Straight Lunge only deals around 39% damage, while Giga Mac's full power Straight Lunge deals up to 50% damage.

skaurai please nerf. The competitive scene is really triggered by this... JK

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• I'd reduce the aerial end lag on 's f-air and b-air by 50%. I'd also want to rework her d-smash so it hits the same way as 's.
• I'd also want to make 's Plasma Whip a kill move again like it was in Brawl.
• And this one is going to be a pretty extreme change: 's Ultimate Uppercut becomes a K.O. Uppercut equivalent but the charge-up time is twice as long to compensate.

 

[DunnoBro]

Give duck hunt kill moves without asterisks

 

[mountain_tiger]

Witch Twist and After Burner Kick to no longer refresh upon flinching (i.e. if you hit her after she's used up B or side B, she's not gonna get her up B and/or side B back until she lands or grabs a ledge). Additionally, start-up on Witch Twist is increased from 4 frames to 6, and each bullet now does 0.2% less damage per hit.

Flip Kick intangibility frames reduced, so that they now only start on frame 4 and last until frame 9 (currently it starts on frame 3 and lasts until frame 12) Furthermore, 3 extra frames of landing lag on Bair (from 9 frames to 12)

Significantly increased base knockback on all of Jiggly's moves which are currently unsafe on hit at low percents. Additionally, Rest damage increased from 20% to 24% (no flower effect afterwards), a knockback growth increase to UThrow (should have stats very similar to Ness' UThrow), 3 frames less landing lag on each aerial, and a 5 frame jumpsquat (currently 6 frames). USmash and DSmash to also gain super armour frames from frame 3 up until when the hitbox appears.

Significant reduction in knockback growth on Needles, such that they don't send the opponent airborne and into a tumbling state until much higher percents. Also a drastic air speed reduction from 1.1 to 0.96.

Float to be refreshed from grabbing a ledge without needing to touch the ground first.

Air speed increased from 1.04 to 1.1, and air acceleration from 0.055 to 0.08. Additionally, jab start-up to be reduced to 5 frames (in exchange for the lower pre-patch damage), a significant reduction to Phantom Slash start-up, Phantom Slash no longer being categorised as a projectile, and a knockback growth increase on BThrow such that it has killing power comparable to Mewtwo's UThrow.


Luma HP decreased from 50 to 45, weight decreased slightly to make him easier to knock away, and respawn time increased to 14 seconds. Additionally, base knockback on Luma Uair, UTilt and Dair to be decreased by 10 units.


To differentiate her a bit more from Marth, weight to be decreased from 90 to 86, dash, walk and air speeds to be increased, fall speed marginally decreased, UThrow to do 1% more damage and DThrow to do 1% less damage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Robin could afford to have some adjustments done to the durability and recharge times for his tomes and Levin Sword.

https://smashboards.com/threads/426052/page-72#post-21609306

Give duck hunt kill moves without asterisks

One way to do that is make Wild Gunman not be so pitiful with its power.

https://smashboards.com/threads/426052/page-70#post-21567153

 

[DunnoBro]

Robin could afford to have some adjustments done to the durability and recharge times for his tomes and Levin Sword.

https://smashboards.com/threads/426052/page-72#post-21609306



One way to do that is make Wild Gunman not be so pitiful with its power.

https://smashboards.com/threads/426052/page-70#post-21567153

Wha- Did they change mega gunmen's damage? It NEVER killed at 35% or ever below 100%

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Wha- Did they change mega gunmen's damage? It NEVER killed at 35% or ever below 100%

No, it's a hack that I did up. When left unhacked, Wild Gunman is quite pitiful as a KO maker, since it isn't able to KO even the lighter fighters until their current damage goes over 200%, and some of them can't KO until the opponent goes over sudden death damage levels.

My hack for Wild Gunman simply improves the gunmen so that they can make KOs sooner; the hacked lanky gunman can KO Mario sooner than the unhacked leader, who KOs Zero Suit Samus at a later damage percentage.

Also, Mega Gunman is very pitiful when left unhacked. The significant buff that I gave it is to compensate for how large the start-up delay is for the giant gunmen.

 

[Slip33]

Character Mode Wise: I really like Peach's dress this smash game, but it should have her white petticoat/underskirt. To give it that complete full dress feel, not to mention looking nicer. In Disney, it seems as though it mandatory for character gowns to have them(Snow White, Belle, Cinderella, Tiana etc....