If you balance Kirby, what would you do?

[Artero]

Meh I don't think difficulty = quality imo. Kirby is meant to be Entry and has EXCEPTIONAL titles under his belt. Opinions I suppose. I feel Mario has a solid series and DK is good if you like run of the mill precision platforming at it's finest. Zelda to me is hit and miss. I like some games and dislike others. Matter of taste I suppose but I do realize Zelda is quite popular.

However if you like those games more it can't be helped.

I only play as characters whose games I like the most anyway so Kirby characters are my main. It's sort of like how I think it's odd to cosplay at a convention as characters you don't even like/love. Just doesn't have heart for me. I personally don't just play as characters that feel good for winning. Winning means nothing to me with a characters I don't like.

I think if you like Mario or Link than play as them than. Playing with a character you like is more important IMO but I know that's not necessarily how most people play smash.

Difficulty indeed doesn't equal quality, but it does often mean it has deeper gameplay and takes skill to get through, which is something I enjoy.

You seem to be confusing feel and love though. For example I love Link as a character the most, but I kinda hate how sluggish he feels in Smash, so I'd never choose him. It's not about winning, but how it feels to play the character in Smash and not how much I like them in their own games (though this obviously helps when on the fence between characters).

 

[kirby_queen]

Difficulty indeed doesn't equal quality, but it does often mean it has deeper gameplay and takes skill to get through, which is something I enjoy.

You seem to be confusing feel and love though. For example I love Link as a character the most, but I kinda hate how sluggish he feels in Smash, so I'd never choose him. It's not about winning, but how it feels to play the character in Smash and not how much I like them in their own games (though this obviously helps when on the fence between characters).

Gameplay can be deep with good design and creativity. One can look no further than how the Japanese/Kirby long timers play KSS. Whatever, opinions about "depth' and what not.

If you're worried that a character feels a certain way (especially sluggish) than I dunno about Kirby either. He's still slow. Try Greninja than.

 

[Zumakito]

What was the point of ruining Kirby's grabs and hammer?

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Because Sakurai doesn't understand balance as well as he thinks he does.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby's hammer is more usable in this game than it ever was lol
It sucked in Melee, and was semi-viable in the air in Brawl, but that's about it. Grounded hammer could be b-reversed for some mixups, but in general only worked on bad opponents. Grounded hammer is basically the same in this game, but you can charge it and jump with it and it's super fun. It's still unviable/unsafe 90% of the time against high level players, but the option is always there, probably better than ever.
And he doesn't have easy grab combos like in Brawl, but setups are still there and he can occasionally get combos depending on character. Most of my ground game still involves grabbing, and he has an excellent pummel just like Brawl :/ I don't see the problem.
At the very least he's not worse than Brawl.

 

[KenMeister]

Kirby's hammer is more usable in this game than it ever was lol
It sucked in Melee, and was semi-viable in the air in Brawl, but that's about it. Grounded hammer could be b-reversed for some mixups, but in general only worked on bad opponents. Grounded hammer is basically the same in this game, but you can charge it and jump with it and it's super fun. It's still unviable/unsafe 90% of the time against high level players, but the option is always there, probably better than ever.
And he doesn't have easy grab combos like in Brawl, but setups are still there and he can occasionally get combos depending on character. Most of my ground game still involves grabbing, and he has an excellent pummel just like Brawl :/ I don't see the problem.
At the very least he's not worse than Brawl.

So more or less the same, really? I thought he'd jump from mid, top, bottom and some other drastically different tier like he has in well, every game. I swear, Kirby has the weirdest tournament history. lol
It's like Sakurai can't decide whether or not he'll be broken, poorly-designed, or mediocre.

 

[Asdioh]

At worst I think Kirby's going to be around the same tier spot he was in Brawl. At best I think he'll be high, but mid is more likely.
We need to find some sweet techs but it's Kirby, he never has techs :/
Like there's this thing which looks basically like wavedashing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DXTNEPqcVo but it's sheik (needle) exclusive. Since Kirby can get needles, he can do it too, but due to his slower runspeed the 'b-reverse slide cancel' is shorter and less impressive.
Kirby's most notable ATs I can think of are like... grounded stone comes out faster than aerial, so if you run off the stage and slide off with grounded stone it's an extremely fast dangerous edgeguard. That's about it? Everything else is pretty basic/same with any other character. All he can really do is figure out how to abuse peoples' copy powers. Kirby vs Shulk is a super ultra fun matchup imo.
Why am I rambling, tl;dr Kirby's an average character that requires getting reads on people to do well in a tournament setting imo

 

[Unknownkid]

So what throws do you use once Fthrow+Fair stops working?

 

[Asdioh]

Fthrow and Dthrow both do 7%
Bthrow does 8%
Upthrow does 10-11%
Bthrow is good but a lot of times I save it to keep it fresh because it's his most viable KO throw on Final Destination stages.
I keep using Dthrow, but that's probably a Brawl habit. I believe it did the most/almost the most damage of all his Brawl throws, and put opponents in a good position to followup. It's kind of pointless now though honestly, what real use for the throw is there? Might be good for doubles but that's about it.
Fthrow is always good for getting people off the stage if they're at the end.
Honestly Upthrow might be his best throw if you can't get easy combos from the other throws, as it does the most damage and puts people in an equally bad position as the others at mid to high percent. Might be better to keep it fresh if you're on a stage like Battlefield, but on FD it doesn't kill until stupid high % so being fresh doesn't matter.


Speaking of fresh moves, does anybody know the specifics? http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation
What I wanted to make clear is that "Fresh" moves have 1.05x the damage and knockback right? So if you use a move (say Upthrow) it will have 1.05x the first time you use it. Now, does "refreshing" it by using 9 other moves bring it back up to 1.05, or 1.00? Is the only way to regain 1.05 to KO yourself, or using 9 other moves? This is something I've been wondering for a while. I guess I could test it out, somehow.

It seems like it DOES because Upthrow still does 11% after being used/refreshed in the same stock, while it does 10% in Training mode (where stale moves do not take place)
So I guess I answered my own question.
Also apparently individual Pummels during grabs don't refresh very well by themselves, as spamming Pummel and then upthrowing only does like 8-9% damage when it should be doing 10-11%.


But anyway, don't worry too much about your throws not being stale because grabbing, pummeling, throwing, jabbing, and hitting with other crap will ensure that your throws are probably fresh by the time you need them. Which I believe will be 1.05x strength, rather than 1.00x. >_>

 

[Unknownkid]

Ah I see. So basically Upthrow for damage, D throw for positioning and F/B throw depending on where they are on the stage. Gotcha! Thanks for the input.

Yes, I have been wondering about Stale and Fresh Moves. But I could not comprehend how it work; even after reading the wiki. Thank you for the explanation. I understand what to do. So any 9 moves or 9 different ones? Basically, I am asking if I do Fsmash (fresh) can I just do Dair, Dtilt and UpB ( any combination those 3) and Fsmash sure be fresh again?

 

[Asdioh]

"In Brawl, Stale-Move Negation is calculated with the aid of a queue of the last ten moves a character has connected with. When a move is used that's in the queue, its damage is decreased an amount based on both how often the move is in the queue and how recently the move has been used. If a move is used ten times in a row, it will have lost 55% of its power in total. If a move is not in the list of ten most recently used moves, it earns a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage - therefore, in Brawl, very few attacks ever deal exactly the base damage value."

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Stale-Move_Negation

basically if you want a fresh bair or bthrow or whatever, use other moves (i'm not sure what counts, but I believe in this game, multi-hit moves only count as 1 use) 10 times. I don't think it matters if you use the same move repeatedly. So I can refresh my Bair with 5 utilts and 5 pummels (assuming pummels work that way, which I'm not sure they do) or 3 utilts, 3 ftilts, 3 upairs or whatever. Or 9 different moves one time each. And if a move has only been used once within the last 9 moves, the good news is it'll still be almost as strong I think, so it doesn't matter too terribly.

 

[LittleKirby]

Why do people want back Melee dash attack?
N64 one was the dream. you could spam it so many times and it had great combo viability

 

[WootSnorlax]

Why do people want back Melee dash attack?
N64 one was the dream. you could spam it so many times and it had great combo viability

Yeah I agree with that. N64 dash attack was just so fast and felt good to land. Melee dash attack seems janky and I guess the only good part about it is that it goes off stage. Personally I hated Melee Kirby's dash attack for that reason also. Brawl and Smash4's is alright, but 64 Kirby was where it was the best.

 

[Unknownkid]

"In Brawl, Stale-Move Negation is calculated with the aid of a queue of the last ten moves a character has connected with. When a move is used that's in the queue, its damage is decreased an amount based on both how often the move is in the queue and how recently the move has been used. If a move is used ten times in a row, it will have lost 55% of its power in total. If a move is not in the list of ten most recently used moves, it earns a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage - therefore, in Brawl, very few attacks ever deal exactly the base damage value."

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Stale-Move_Negation

basically if you want a fresh bair or bthrow or whatever, use other moves (i'm not sure what counts, but I believe in this game, multi-hit moves only count as 1 use) 10 times. I don't think it matters if you use the same move repeatedly. So I can refresh my Bair with 5 utilts and 5 pummels (assuming pummels work that way, which I'm not sure they do) or 3 utilts, 3 ftilts, 3 upairs or whatever. Or 9 different moves one time each. And if a move has only been used once within the last 9 moves, the good news is it'll still be almost as strong I think, so it doesn't matter too terribly.

Music to my ears. Thank you for the clarification, Asdioh!

Why do people want back Melee dash attack?
N64 one was the dream. you could spam it so many times and it had great combo viability

Beats me. I hate the Melee Dash Attack and was pissed when P:M brought it back. Yes, N64 dash attack was a godsend.

If I would have put a tier list for just the Kirbys in Smash, it will go like this:
N64 Kirby > P:M Kirby (I have never took him seriously but I assume he should be better) > Brawl Kirby => Smash 4 Kirby >> Pichu >>>> Melee Kirby.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Changes I definitely want:
- Walking with Inhale
- Opponents can no longer block Inhale
- Dtilt pops the opponent up instead of horizontally, to help aid his combos
- Less startup lag on Nair, Uair, Dair, Usmash, Up B, and Dash Attack to make these moves much safer options
- Less endlag on Fsmash to make it less punishable
- More knockback on Uthrow and Bthrow to make them more effective as kill moves
- Dthrow pops the opponent slightly above him, to aid with combos
- Fthrow sends opponents at a lower angle and closer to Kirby, to aid with combos
- Slightly extend the ending projectile of Final Cutter to make the recovery safer
- Up B snaps to the ledge on the way up to make the recovery safer
- Dsmash sends the opponent at a low horizontal angle to make it more effective for edgeguarding, gimping, and KOing
- Stone can be interrupted whenever you want to, like in previous games
- Dashing and then using grounded Stone will cause Kirby to slide with a moving hitbox, just like the Kirby games

Optional Changes:
- Kirby gets a new Side B: Burning Tackle. Similar to Peach Bomber in both startup and endlag. Useful for techchases, and catching opponents who are rolling or spotdodging. Hits the opponent multiple times before sending them up. Passes through shields and does a minimal amount of shield damage. Snaps to ledges. Great as an alternate recovery. Using this move normally in the air would cause Kirby to fly straight, but you can angle it up or down similar to Jigglypuff's Pound. Can only be done once in the air to prevent infinite recoveries.
- Custom 2 of Burning Tackle would be Burning Crash. Makes the move function completely similar to Peach Bomber. Becomes a single hit move that bounces off of opponents and shields after it hits them. Increased damage and knockback, and is safe when it hits shields. Decreased horizontal distance/recovery to compensate.
- Custom 3 of Burning Tackle would be Blazing Tackle. Travels further and faster than Burning Tackle, making it a more effective recovery. However, the move only hits a single time with weak damage and knockback, and has more startup lag to compensate. Pretty much strictly becomes a recovery move or to travel across the stage quickly.
- Might add more later lol

 

[crashbfan]

illuvial, YOU STINK!

 

[Chief Chili]

Give Kirby his down throw that could lead to tech chases. Make nair start quicker to make it a better out of shield option. Increase range of inhale and allow aerial movement during inhale like in PM. Give him his dash attack from PM as well.

 

[KenMeister]

Give him advanced techs so he's not.....Average and boring like he was in Brawl.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Thinking about it more. I'd give him more air and ground speed, make it so his kills moves aren't so easily punished at they are now, allow him to kill at lower percents than what he's able to kill at now 120-130% is kind of silly when it feels like the rest of the cast can kill much earlier. Give him some kind of approach option. I'd love if his dash attack chewed up shields. Make his hammer more useful by allowing it to break shields instead of just heavily damaging them. Shields seem to regenerate pretty quickly in smash 4, and can be dropped really quickly too.

 

[Slonk]

I pretty much just agree with It'sRainingGravy.

I'd love to see Kirby's forward smash reinstated to its former 64 glory...the range! The power! Now when I use it it's like slapping them with a soggy spongecake.
As well as that:
-Faster air speed
-No more lag on the down air. For the love of God, it takes like half a second to start the move. You can't use it as a reaction because by the time the move starts they've rolled away/their non-laggy up-whatever has already smacked you.
-More range on the Final Cutter shockwave
-Maybe a tad more range on his d-tilt.
-Could you make Inhale not shieldable? Please? It's such a stupid mechanic.

 

[SRUFUS3D]

I would say to INCREASE his speed and range. Do something to make his throws better. In addition to let U-air kill. Like, if Kirby is close-quarters fighter, I SAY MAKE HIM DEADLY!
(shame up-throw don't kill no more )
And sort out the hammer or replace it for say, jet dash?- like mentioned earlier or a projectile... beam? bomb? cutter?
But really he will need a viable approach for example a better F-air. Fix N-air as good out of sheild option
And the inhale physics....
But I am very doubtful to see a patch for balancing to even be thought about than to be done.

 

[sxiz]

• can't shield inhale
• more ground and air speed
• faster hammer
• uthrow actually kills
• maybe more reach on the fair, for approach reasons

i think that'll do it but if not we can always bring 64's utilt back

 

[KenMeister]

• can't shield inhale
• more ground and air speed
• faster hammer
• uthrow actually kills
• maybe more reach on the fair, for approach reasons

i think that'll do it but if not we can always bring 64's utilt back

....Or just bring back N64 Kirby in general. Seriously though, when you think of the strengths the top/ high tiers have, KIrby would look rather balanced in comparison to them. lol

 

[Kirbyte]

Dash Speed (1.57) → (1.7)
Air Speed (0.8) → (0.97)
Walk Speed (0.93) → (0.99)
Faster Stone
Hammer replaced with Jet
Final Cutter replaced with Hi-Jump
N64 Dash Attack
N64 Down Aerial
N64 Neutral Aerial
Down Smash hits horizontally instead of vertically
Down Throw is faster, angle changed (63° → 90°), knockback (60 (base)/140 (growth) → 40/140)
N64 Down Tilt Range
Brawl Attack/Grab Range

 

[chaosmasterro]

Melee uair, less start up on inhale (can't be countered) give stone more shield damage ( equivalent to bowser bomb), better air mobility, and up throw actually kills.

Or at least make u throw kill. Kirby is centered around his grab game so at least give us that.

 

[Runt]

let him get more useful copy abilities. thats kirbys whole concept but it doesn't play a good role in any smash. i feel like 1 special move per soppy ability was ok for 64 and melee, but in brawl and sm4sh i feel they coulda done something more with that.

 

[KenMeister]

let him get more useful copy abilities. thats kirbys whole concept but it doesn't play a good role in any smash. i feel like 1 special move per soppy ability was ok for 64 and melee, but in brawl and sm4sh i feel they coulda done something more with that.

You forget how unbearably awful Kirby is in Melee though. lol
Have you watched Chudat's old Brawl videos of him maining Kirby? You can set up interesting edge-guarding situations with Inhale, and I assume it's inherently the same in Smash 4 as it was in Brawl.

 

[THK]

Restore him to his 64 state.

Seriously though give me Brawl side B in the air, Brawl d-throw/combo, actual kill throw and unshielded inhale cause that's dumb. There's a lot more that I'd WANT but that's all I NEED.

You know what would be neat? If inhaling replaced all or most of his B moves. Make him more faithful to the games.

 

[LaserLockOn]

In terms of directly fighting, Kirby is pretty good. He has both the option to constantly approach and retreat from enemies because of his aerial mobility. Just about all of Kirby's aerials connect into a grab, which can either be follow up with Fair (which you can take another chance at a grab to follow up,) or Final Cutter with Fthrow. Dair to Dsmash is a death combo, but if the opponent is anticipating an aerial from above, you can fake out with a Hammer (Kirby's only forward aerial disjointed KO move), or Stone.
If I were to make some changes...

~ Fair should have less end lag so you can spam it like crazy
~ Final Cutter should have super armor at it's peak, or at least snap ledges.
~ Enable horizontal movement at the start up of Hammer + less end lag.
~ Faster ground movement while charging Hammer.
~ Up Throw should at least KO
~ Better combo opportunities with his grabs
~ Faster Ftilt, I believed that Kirby's jab had a greater priority.
~ Less start and end lag on inhale.