If some tournaments start enabling Auto L-Cancelling, how would you feel?

[Vigilante]

...Which missed inputs/misinputs covers and can refer to more relevant things than L-cancelling in this circumstance.

More relevant according to whom?

 

[4tlas]

In fact, most would use the auto-cancel not because it's what they want, but because they want to win.

You could say the same about manual cancel. Feeling good about your time investment is a form of this. Being concerned that new players have an unfair advantage is a form of this.

 

[JOE!]

More relevant according to whom?

I guess more relevant to players? Messing up a waveland is much more devastating that missing an Lcancel.

 

[Vigilante]

I guess more relevant to players? Messing up a waveland is much more devastating that missing an Lcancel.

Are we actually discussing "but this is more important" as opposed to "why it is important"? I will repeat it again, people enjoy L-canceling as it provides an amazing pressure tool that allows people to keep attacking at a rapid rate, as well as providing a way to see just how rattled the opposition is. Those are factual points that really can't be discussed. Now, if you're arguing taking these things away will make the game more interesting to some, it might... it will also make it less interesting for a lot of the established fanbase whom will have lost a degree of depth.

 

[Rawkobo]

Are we actually discussing "but this is more important" as opposed to "why it is important"? I will repeat it again, people enjoy L-canceling as it provides an amazing pressure tool that allows people to keep attacking at a rapid rate, as well as providing a way to see just how rattled the opposition is. Those are factual points that really can't be discussed. Now, if you're arguing taking these things away will make the game more interesting to some, it might... it will also make it less interesting for a lot of the established fanbase whom will have lost a degree of depth.

Except it's not factual. It's assumed to be factual, when something else is describing the situation.

 

[Vigilante]

Except it's not factual. It's assumed to be factual, when something else is describing the situation.

It is stated that way because smashers agree that is is the role that it serves, and quite clearly, it does. No one can deny that it is a pressure tool as it is exactly the role that L-cancel fills among others. That is not even disputable.

 

[Rawkobo]

It is stated that way because smashers agree that is is the role that it serves, and quite clearly, it does. No one can deny that it is a pressure tool as it is exactly the role that L-cancel fills among others. That is not even disputable.

But I can deny it, because clearly there are those who disagree. That's a very bold assumption to make without observable evidence.

 

[Ningildo]

Are we actually discussing "but this is more important" as opposed to "why it is important"? I will repeat it again, people enjoy L-canceling as it provides an amazing pressure tool that allows people to keep attacking at a rapid rate, as well as providing a way to see just how rattled the opposition is. Those are factual points that really can't be discussed. Now, if you're arguing taking these things away will make the game more interesting to some, it might... it will also make it less interesting for a lot of the established fanbase whom will have lost a degree of depth.

Uh...except this could be simply changed to auto and the gameplay would remain the same. Yes, technically, the reward for pressing a button is the landing lag reduction. But can this "tech" fill other roles? Be used in unexpected ways? It can't. Calling l-cancelling a tool is stretching it, as it can't do anything else and you don't have to even think about the situation at hand to use it. You just do. It's not a tool, an option, a choice, because you will never want to not l-cancel.

Besides the lag reduction, what does l-cancelling offer? Again, if auto was enabled, nothing would change. Top level play would stay exactly the same. Interactions between players would stay the same. Please point out the depth l-cancelling has as a "tool", something I've asked of you before and you basically said "because they can mess it up, it is a skill based thing and thus, has depth". A lot of things can be messed up (spacing, smart recovery, good neutral decisions etc.), but they aren't considered signs of a good player because of that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It is stated that way because smashers agree that is is the role that it serves, and quite clearly, it does. No one can deny that it is a pressure tool as it is exactly the role that L-cancel fills among others. That is not even disputable.

I wouldn't say it is firmly agreed upon.

PPMD was not entirely in agreement with this.

Even top Melee players have said it can be seen as a negative to the game since the minimal depth it offers isn't on par with something like wavedashing and removing it lowers the skill floor while barely messing with the skill ceiling.

 

[trash?]

it's difficult to look at more recent melee smashboards discussion for l-cancelling, as people take it as a personal slight against melee itself, not realizing a game can still be good despite small flaws (and, in the grand scheme of things, that's all l-cancelling in melee's design sort of is, a really small flaw)

I found this one from 2013, though: http://smashboards.com/threads/l-cancelling-does-add-depth-to-the-game.337350/

one of the major points that I agree with SB on in that thread is that, even if l-cancelling can provide a metagame concept, does that mean it justifies the price of accessibility? again, it's a relatively small price (waveshining doesn't need l-cancels to run at a silly APM, after all), but then we have an even smaller metagame concept towards it

 

[Vigilante]

It would not be the same as there would no longer be the effect of pressure influencing how well you L-cancel. It doesn't have to unexpected, however, missing it adds a window of opportunity, and that is something the player must react to on the spot. It's no different in design than the timed hits in RPGs. It's fun, adds a rhythm aspect, except than in this game, it's the equivalent of a lapse of attention in a fight, which leaves you momentarily vulnerable.

Assuming nothing would change with auto-cancel is hardly true. Again, stress and psychological state is very important to Smash. To me, and I'm trying to be nice here, it sounds as an excuse to not take the small amount of time needed to learn the skill.

 

[Rawkobo]

It would not be the same as there would no longer be the effect of pressure influencing how well you L-cancel. It doesn't have to unexpected, however, missing it adds a window of opportunity, and that is something the player must react to on the spot. It's no different in design than the timed hits in RPGs. It's fun, adds a rhythm aspect, except than in this game, it's the equivalent of a lapse of attention in a fight, which leaves you momentarily vulnerable.

Assuming nothing would change with auto-cancel is hardly true. Again, stress and psychological state is very important to Smash. To me, and I'm trying to be nice here, it sounds as an excuse to not take the small amount of time needed to learn the skill.

But it's also hardly true to assume the significance is as great as you make it out to be.

That's, like, the whole problem. We're never going to agree on that because there's no evidence for it that isn't just word-of-mouth.

 

[trash?]

Assuming nothing would change with auto-cancel is hardly true. Again, stress and psychological state is very important to Smash. To me, and I'm trying to be nice here, it sounds as an excuse to not take the small amount of time needed to learn the skill.

this is short-sighted of the actual execution potential this game has. again, l-cancelling is tiny, it's easy to figure out with maybe a few hours (even assuming you know nothing about execution), that's why I think discussion of it should be treated as tiny.

like... look at iPK's execution with lucario. you see all the fancy stuff he can pull with that horrifying little anthro creature, what people probably don't say in response is "wow, look at all those l-cancels!". it's not really a big thing, I enjoy talking about it as a small thing to poke and prod at, but my god do people argue like it's the most important mechanic in the game

 

[Ningildo]

It would not be the same as there would no longer be the effect of pressure influencing how well you L-cancel. It doesn't have to unexpected, however, missing it adds a window of opportunity, and that is something the player must react to on the spot. It's no different in design than the timed hits in RPGs. It's fun, adds a rhythm aspect, except than in this game, it's the equivalent of a lapse of attention in a fight, which leaves you momentarily vulnerable.

Assuming nothing would change with auto-cancel is hardly true. Again, stress and psychological state is very important to Smash. To me, and I'm trying to be nice here, it sounds as an excuse to not take the small amount of time needed to learn the skill.

For the record, I couldn't care less about what happens regarding l-cancelling. It's not hard at all, hasn't really caused issues for me in tournaments and all that. It's just that I don't like people arguing for things that aren't defensible in the slightest, choosing to constantly bring up incredibly niche scenarios that will likely never influence a match (due both the crazy amount of set up needed and that better alternatives always exist), bring up possible punishes for messing up the "tech" (ignoring that only very few moves would have enough regular lag for the opponent to be able to react to the missed l-cancel in time, that moves that do end up punished this way get punished more so due improper spacing, timing (late vs early) and whatnot and that at high level play, missed l-cancels simply don't happen and thus are never in play) and sometimes just calls out the other side for being bad. Given all these (bar the latter), what interactions would be lost from the game? What would we lose that meaningfully impacts interactions? Forget the impact on the community for a second and just answer that.

Now, I'm going to ask again. Show me these missed l-cancels happening at top level play. Everyone mentions it, yet there hasn't been even one example. Bonus points if it actually changed the outcome.

And nice call out, too. I even mentioned the difficulty isn't the goddamn issue. You want to talk stress, too? My first concern with getting flustered isn't going to be "oh man, now I can't l-cancel to save my life", it's "oh man, he's reading all my approaches and movement and taking all of the momentum". Please stop doing the same thing so many pro manual posters do and assume we want it gone cause we suck at it.

 

[Rawkobo]

Like, please don't misunderstand. The whole reason I'm making this such a back and forth is because I'm asking you to prove sweeping statements that have little bearing beyond "it's always been this way" and other arbitrary assumptions that don't exactly give voice to the greater picture.

I'm not saying I'm a master of the game, but I consider the fundamentals of spacing and technical skill that facilitates spacing and footsies substantially more important because they give immediate results to improvement in play. That's what I teach anyone who asks me what's important to do in Smash to start getting farther. It's those things, and acknowledging the weight and magnitude of those things along with player mentality, a true barrier in expressing those skills optimally, that should be discussed.

It takes a lot more than just "because it does" to explain how L-cancelling fits into that dynamic. It requires extensive analysis and meaningful data. That's why I support the tournaments the thread is requesting to try out. It's research.

And it's difficult to have to keep repeating this, because it's not getting answered in a way that makes any remote amount of sense, or has any sort of backing.

 

[Bleck]

Please stop doing the same thing so many pro manual posters do and assume we want it gone cause we suck at it.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the main reason people argue in favor of l-canceling is so that they can be condescending about it in the same way that Vigilante has been doing

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

This has probably been repeated multiple times in various tongues, but

It would not be the same as there would no longer be the effect of pressure influencing how well you L-cancel. It doesn't have to unexpected, however, missing it adds a window of opportunity, and that is something the player must react to on the spot. It's no different in design than the timed hits in RPGs. It's fun, adds a rhythm aspect, except than in this game, it's the equivalent of a lapse of attention in a fight, which leaves you momentarily vulnerable.

Assuming nothing would change with auto-cancel is hardly true. Again, stress and psychological state is very important to Smash. To me, and I'm trying to be nice here, it sounds as an excuse to not take the small amount of time needed to learn the skill.

What they're (and myself now) are trying to explain to you (and the others that disagree):
Since I've only paid attention to the last 4 pages or so, your listed pros would be:

• It would make you better if ALC was on
• Adds Technical Depth
• It's easy, even a monkey could do it.
• Cool pressure tool
• Add's a window of punishment when missed

3 of these points literally don't matter or occur a fair amount of times in other situations and the other 2: pressure and depth, but they're not exclusive to L-Cancelling. They exist in full form without it. Even the things I quoted in your post
IMO, you and a few others have been ballooning the importance of this skill too far. It's just a timed button press. Why do you believe one insignificant button press out of the whole game would split a community in half? :T
It's a very small, insignificant & easy tech skill that wouldn't even change the flow of the game if it was adapted better (cutting Landing lag in half across the board/ALC). Also, there are plenty of more important aspects of the game that would stress you out psychologically throughout game play.

The Pro-ALC side assumes L-Cancelling is:

• Redundant
• Superficial
• Will not be missed if ALC was on
• Does not provide as much depth as other tech

Pro ALC keeps asking what are genuine pros of this tech skill that aren't overlapped by and are just as important and deep as the other techs. Also how would game play change if this option was on?
Every time a similar thread pops up it's the Anti-ALC side propping up the tech bigger than it is. The fact that such an easy tech has an automated option devalues it even more.

TLDR: You're all silly geese

 

[JOE!]

Just to add to the conversation, I went ahead and complied every aerial in PM's landing time (Normal and Canceled) vs Average (15f) and Fast (10f) reaction times.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N6FN8xUuzTEyZx6_mLOiXtI0mChf3CvrI70w_HKJLOg/edit#gid=0

 

[x260houtori]

Would you still play in a tournament that had it enabled? or would you choose not to play for specific reasons?

I would still be playing with or without L-cancelling, But I feel like all the people saying its arbitrary are a bit off. One of my favorite things to do against my friend who plays fox is move my shield around when he goes in for pressure, This messes up the timing on shield that he is used too, and causes him to miss L cancels. I would miss that aspect of the game as it feels like a good defensive option that would otherwise, not be a thing with auto l cancels. so to all the people saying its arbitrary, I feel like you have not played long enough, or are lacking a good understanding of the meaning of the word. L-canceling allows for players to be more aggressive and make riskier decisions, however with it being manual they are also taking the additional risk of messing up the cancel and getting punished big time.

 

[Bleck]

if your friend is missing l-cancels because of a moved shield it's likely that he's just barely in the l-cancel window - like, one or two frames - and it he could adjust really easily

 

[x260houtori]

if your friend is missing l-cancels because of a moved shield it's likely that he's just barely in the l-cancel window - like, one or two frames - and it he could adjust really easily

But wouldn't him adjusting, be considered part of the meta game? I mean he is having to think about his pressure more than he would normally have too, with auto l-cancels he won't have to think about adjusting his timing, and the result would be he now has more effective pressure, because its literally easier to perform.

 

[Ningildo]

But wouldn't him adjusting, be considered part of the meta game? I mean he is having to think about his pressure more than he would normally have too, with auto l-cancels he won't have to think about adjusting his timing, and the result would be he now has more effective pressure, because its literally easier to perform.

Yes, I guess that's true.

Never mind that at this level you still have no proper grasp of neutral, good spacing, optimized punishes, awareness of mixups on various aspects of the game (edgeguarding, cross ups on shield, DI traps on throws etc) that probably matter more then just l-cancelling and require way more effort and actually provide interactions at high level play.

The point behind mentioning all these things that actually matter at high level play is that at low to mid level play, a LOT of things aren't done well. But obviously making mechanic changes based on this level of play is foolhardy.

 

[xquqx]

you can also just mash the l cancel input since there isn't a fail window, so if he figured you were going to try to mess him up he could just mash and get it no matter what you did.

 

[x260houtori]

you can also just mash the l cancel input since there isn't a fail window, so if he figured you were going to try to mess him up he could just mash and get it no matter what you did.

I did not know there was no fail window. I thought there was like a 4 frame window or something.

EDIT:Googled it and figured out there is indeed no fail window. and all these years I have been adamant on making sure I don't mash with my l-cancels... not knowing I could have just mashed when people shield my nair.

 

[xquqx]

I did not know there was no fail window. I thought there was like a 4 frame window or something.

EDIT: if this is true, I feel like that should have been a priority for the PMDT while they were still working on the game. Thats a shame. I always thought L cancelling could not be mashed.

well the l cancel window is 7 frames, so even if there was a 4 frame failure window you'd be able to mash it anyway since the window wouldn't be big enough to lock you out. But yeah, there's no failure window so the whole "people will fail it under pressure" argument is kind of silly.

 

[x260houtori]

well the l cancel window is 7 frames, so even if there was a 4 frame failure window you'd be able to mash it anyway since the window wouldn't be big enough to lock you out. But yeah, there's no failure window so the whole "people will fail it under pressure" argument is kind of silly.

makes sense, Yeah I just learned about the 7 frame thing after that google search. The more ya know Thanks for the info bud.

 

[Bleck]

was gonna mention that learning to just mash shield in that window is not really a metagame thing but y'all already have that covered

 

[Phaiyte]

I'd still play. I'd still L cancel by muscle memory even though I know auto is on. But I know that it wouldn't affect my gameplay and if I lose it's only because something about my gameplay was not up to par compared to my opponent and had nothing to do with auto L cancelling anyways. If someone beats me of all people, then chances are the match would've ended up being the exact same way it went down anyways. Most people who say otherwise are typically either really bad at the game or a bunch of cry babies.

L cancelling isn't even hard and it's ultimately a pointless skill to have since it really doesn't affect the decisions you make. You're probably never gonna hear someone on stream say "oh man that guy totally missed an L cancel" in grand finals in a relevant community.

was gonna mention that learning to just mash shield in that window is not really a metagame thing but y'all already have that covered

Mashing shield to ensure an L Cancel isn't much different from doing what's called a Triple Negative Edge in Street Fighter 2 Turbo. When you get knocked down in that game you have exactly 1 frame to perform a true reversal if that's what you choose to do. So let's just say Ryu wants to mash dp when he recognizes his opponent has mistimed a different tech called a safejump. To perform a triple negative edge, you input the directional inputs and hit each punch button(or kick for Fei Long and Cammy) one a time two frames apart. Negative Edge means that you can activate a move by letting go of a button rather than pressing it, so if you time your button presses exactly right, you can go from a 1 frame window to a 6 frame window, but good luck making that work consistently, and especially if they cross you up at the last possible moment, negating your directional inputs.

Back to what I was actually gonna say though, You have 3 shield buttons by default at your fingertips and you can just press 2 or all 3 before you land and you'll probably get a 100% rate more often than not, and it really does help account for hitting a shield. It's technically an option select, which is an input performed as a backup in case the first input has no effect. This goes for whether you're aiming for the same result either way or multiple results based on what your opponent does.

 

[Phaiyte]

I hit reply instead of edit. My bad.

 

[Phaiyte]

Are we actually discussing "but this is more important" as opposed to "why it is important"? I will repeat it again, people enjoy L-canceling as it provides an amazing pressure tool that allows people to keep attacking at a rapid rate, as well as providing a way to see just how rattled the opposition is. Those are factual points that really can't be discussed. Now, if you're arguing taking these things away will make the game more interesting to some, it might... it will also make it less interesting for a lot of the established fanbase whom will have lost a degree of depth.

All that pressure is still there in auto cancels and no good player will get "rattled" by it anyways. I think it's funny that the only thing "manual cancel supporters" can come up with is a bunch of logical fallacies, crybabying, and "possibilities" with no tests behind it haha



edit: Well **** I did it again. My bad x2

 

[Vigilante]

And personally, I enjoy deserving the victories I get.

 

[wiiztec]

I'll be willing to host more tournaments under this, however I would like if I could have Auto L-Cancelling enabled by default and unable to be turned off to make it easier. If this was possible some how and anyone would like modify the game to do this I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm uncertain if it's simply a GCT edit or not.

Add this code to the end of your gct
42000000 900000000
0017F36B 000000001
E0000000 80008000

 

[Ningildo]

And personally, I enjoy deserving the victories I get.

Thanks for answering just about nothing with that.

If you scroll up a bit you'll note that I asked you to show missed l-cancels that matter at high level play. Please do, because until you do so, we're stuck at this impasse of pro auto waiting for proof that l-cancels matter at high level play and some random person passing by and parting the incredibly wise words of "you're all bad if you think l-cancelling is hard, lol".

 

[Vigilante]

All missed L-cancels matter. All of them. Missing one might prevent you from following up with a combo, or prevent give the opponent an opening to strike.

 

[Ningildo]

All missed L-cancels matter. All of them. Missing one might prevent you from following up with a combo, or prevent give the opponent an opening to strike.

Again, we're assuming high level play. Do these happen then? And if they do, did they matter? Also show some great examples of it happening.

 

[Vigilante]

Again, we're assuming high level play. Do these happen then? And if they do, did they matter? Also show some great examples of it happening.

You're acting as if high level players never make mistakes.

 

[xquqx]

You're acting as if high level players never make mistakes.

Literally all he wants is a single high level match where someone missed an l cancel and it ended up mattering. As it stands, with no proof that people actually get flustered and drop l cancels at high level play, your entire argument is unsubstantiated. Just link a video, shouldn't be too hard if it's actually a thing that happens.

 

[Ningildo]

You're acting as if high level players never make mistakes.

Since these missed l-cancels at high level play seem to be so commonplace, you'd have no issue showing me video proof? And hopefully said missed l-cancel made a difference?

Literally all he wants is a single high level match where someone missed an l cancel and it ended up mattering. As it stands, with no proof that people actually get flustered and drop l cancels at high level play, your entire argument is unsubstantiated. Just link a video, shouldn't be too hard if it's actually a thing that happens.

This essentially.

 

[4tlas]

And personally, I enjoy deserving the victories I get.

You always deserve the victories you get. No matter how badly the opponent played, to beat them you had to play better.

Why does L-cancelling increase your self-worth?

 

[Vigilante]

Man, the auto-cancel squad is ravenous today. Just go watch EVO matches, you'll see your examples. That's about the amount of effort I'll put in. I don't go around proving to people that the Earth isn't flat. It's painfully obvious.

L-canceling is a nice, and fun skillful thing to learn. It's not really about self worth. It's just.... fun.