Ideas for Next Patch

[FallofBrawl]

What are some buffs, nerfs, and adjustments you guys would make for the next patch to make the balance as optimal as it can be?

 

[ymtah]

give marth and lucina roys horizontal aerial momentum

give jigglypuff better autocancels

some change to make d3s fair chainable

the usual

 

[muddykips]

give samus some love.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Buff Jigglypuff and King Dedede FOR ONCE.

And then otherwise I don't care

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My #1 change would be to add a frame modifier to most of the rolls in the game so they have something like 5+ extra frames of animation. (Likely about half of those frames would be invulnerable if applied by a frame modifier, but it doesn't matter.) Many rolls in the game absolutely need to be slower in order for options in the neutral game to become more...reliable. They're too fast to react to without being committed to just that, and it significantly exacerbates the issue of mobility creating a clear gap in potential between the top dozen-ish characters and everyone else. Rolling semi-randomly while applying your regular neutral/burst range tools is becoming an integral part of the metagame, and it infuriates me that people are forced to respect it so much.

For example, watch literally any high-level Diddy Kong and it will become apparent that you have to forego a ton of your normal options to be able to deal with his roll, combined with the threat of an out-of-shield banana and Forward-B grab, at all. Check out this very recent match of MVD vs. Shaky, or take a look at Grand Finals of EVO; you'll definitely see what I mean.

Distance could stand to be cut on a lot of them, too (Ganondorf should not move faster by rolling than by running), but, the speed is more of an issue. This game suffers significantly in its current state because of it. You'll likely need to do both of those things. I'm glad that they took away a frame of invincibility on all of rolls and spotdodges (that's acknowledging that they're a problem, at least), but that's not really hitting the main issue.

 

[Luigi player]

Mechanics wise:

I feel they should work on the game engine a little better and fix it's "bugs".

- I don't want to jump by pressing right or left (mostly happens if you press behind you) + A when I leave the ground and go into the air by running off an edge.
Stagespike bairs always become a full hop, because of the timing that I press these right as I go off.

- What can also happen is that you just do a nair while walking off of edges if you do an aerial right as you go off. Thought you'd fastfall + bair or uair your opponent after a run off to edgeguard with Captain Falcon? Nope, you'll fastfall nair and die, because of too much endinglag of the nair. Thought you'd fair spike with Yoshi? Or fair edgeguard with Diddy? Nairs all day!

- Not only one freaking buffer during the buffer-window. Why was this changed from Brawl? Brawls buffer-system was seen as a little much sometimes, but at least it worked correctly! You could actually buffer the actions that you want to do!

• Reverse grab out of dropping your shield or spotdodge, what heaven!
• Usmash and upB out of shield when the opponent attacked your shield! GLORIOUS! (now you do a grab or jump respectively if you don't wait long enough and press too early so you're still in the buffer window)
• DOUBLEJUMPING + doing an aerial while you're offstage, not just doing an aerial, because you were still having endlag of your previous move and buffering the jump + aerial so the jump will never happen and you die from the aerial since you didn't jump. What a lifesaver that would be.
• Random stuff makes you ALWAYS buffer nairs instead of doing other aerials. Like after Diddys sideB attack. If you ever buffer any aerial out of the kick, the grab attack... it'll ALWAYS become a nair. This happens after specific moves / actions. It'll also happen if you break out of Yoshis egg and buffer any aerial. It'll result in a nair. I'm not sure what all of them are, but this is annoying and really stupid.

After that, rolls are definitely a little stupid.
Though I wouldn't add 5 frames like Reflex and try changing it not too drastically for now and see how it goes. It's really difficult to react to (you basically have to predict it to react with the right punish), EVEN if you predict a roll you might be too late to do anything. The next roll is on the way (hi for glory players)!
I guess I'd try to add like 3 frames to them, covering with +3 more frames of invicibility. There just needs to be a little more time to react to them, but it shouldn't be overdone. Though I'm not sure how exactly rolls were in Brawl, where they could still be good, but not as broken as in Smash4.
I agree with the less length for some rolls. I guess this is a personal problem for not studying the rolls of each character, but it's really annoying to always have different roll distances... really long ones are obviously the best. Sometimes you stand in a zoning range just out of the range where the characters could hit each other, and if the opponent tries to roll into you you can just grab him... but some characters go soo far that they land behind you. That's annoying... Not sure if I'd really change that, I guess characters should be different... it can be memorized if you work on it.

And now would come character specific changes. But that would probably be too long of a list.
Buffs for some characters obviously.
And I'd personally nerf Sheik just a super tiny bit more. Maybe her upB damage / knockback, since this move is super scary and let's her get super early kills (if in rage) in 50:50 situations. And it shouldn't fill 2 bucket units. And of course change needles so that they aren't op. Also maybe something like a little more grablag if missed like with Diddy Kong.
Besides that Lumas base knockback a little weaker so that moves don't KO you at like 30 sometimes.
After that maybe ZSS' upB knockback. Otherwise I'm good with nerfs.

 

[Raijinken]

My #1 change would be to add a frame modifier to most of the rolls in the game so they have something like 5+ extra frames of animation. (Likely about half of those frames would be invulnerable if applied by a frame modifier, but it doesn't matter.) Many rolls in the game absolutely need to be slower in order for options in the neutral game to become more...reliable. They're too fast to react to without being committed to just that, and it significantly exacerbates the issue of mobility creating a clear gap in potential between the top dozen-ish characters and everyone else. Rolling semi-randomly while applying your regular neutral/burst range tools is becoming an integral part of the metagame, and it infuriates me that people are forced to respect it so much.

For example, watch literally any high-level Diddy Kong and it will become apparent that you have to forego a ton of your normal options to be able to deal with his roll, combined with the threat of an out-of-shield banana and Forward-B grab, at all. Check out this very recent match of MVD vs. Shaky, or take a look at Grand Finals of EVO; you'll definitely see what I mean.

Distance could stand to be cut on a lot of them, too (Ganondorf should not move faster by rolling than by running), but, the speed is more of an issue. This game suffers significantly in its current state because of it. You'll likely need to do both of those things. I'm glad that they took away a frame of invincibility on all of rolls and spotdodges (that's acknowledging that they're a problem, at least), but that's not really hitting the main issue.

In other words, make more people roll like Samus/Yoshi? I could agree with that. The 1-frame global nerf to rolls doesn't seem like much yet, but who knows, it may matter.

My main "Will Never Happen" goal would be for Equipment and Custom Moves to be split into two separate toggles, and for the Customs toggle to result in an ordered selection upon character choice, removing the existence or need for a finite number of sets. Combine that with a Customs DLC and throw in some customs for the DLC characters, and anyone with reasonable views on customs should be happy.

Oh, and add a playable Tales character. I guess it's Asbel, Luke, or Cress now that Lloyd's been relegated to a costume.

 

[Pink'd]

Things that should be changed:

Nerf Shiek's needles
Give her arials some lag, plz
Give Luigi some lag, PLZ
Buff Samus, but take away her broken roll
Buff the Puff
Buff anyone else who needs buffs
MAKE FALCO RUN FASTER, LIKE SERIOUSLY

Things that might be changed, but probably not:
Rolls could be made less obnoxious by shortening i-frames
Give us bacus Dacus

Did I forget anything?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm of the mind that "roll toward the opponent" should never, ever win you a situation against an attentive opponent holding Shield, but it happens and works very often in the current metagame. That's easily the biggest problem with rolls right now, and animation speed is a far bigger issue than invincibility frames with them.

There are characters who lose to "roll backward" from a lot of characters if the opponent isn't at the edge, but that's not as egregious, since at least those characters still have all their options at their disposal to fight the offensive tools.

 

[FallofBrawl]

One thing I'd like to happen is added shield stun. I really dislike the all or very little approach when it comes to smash 4 shield damage.
But it is pretty tricky to balance because of the multiple problems that can arise from just adding more shield stun.
Moves like Ryu's heavy ftilt and Ganondorf's aerial down b will become even more deadlier since the opponent cannot get out of shield between the two hitboxes on both moves. So to balance, I would say tone done the shield breaking moves of the game by at least 20%.
Either that or just decrease endlag on moves so it can link properly into shield pressuring situations.
EDIT: forgot Ryu had two ftilts.

 

[san.]

Mechanics wise:

I feel they should work on the game engine a little better and fix it's "bugs".

- I don't want to jump by pressing right or left (mostly happens if you press behind you) + A when I leave the ground and go into the air by running off an edge.
Stagespike bairs always become a full hop, because of the timing that I press these right as I go off.

- What can also happen is that you just do a nair while walking off of edges if you do an aerial right as you go off. Thought you'd fastfall + bair or uair your opponent after a run off to edgeguard with Captain Falcon? Nope, you'll fastfall nair and die, because of too much endinglag of the nair. Thought you'd fair spike with Yoshi? Or fair edgeguard with Diddy? Nairs all day!

- Not only one freaking buffer during the buffer-window. Why was this changed from Brawl? Brawls buffer-system was seen as a little much sometimes, but at least it worked correctly! You could actually buffer the actions that you want to do!

• Reverse grab out of dropping your shield or spotdodge, what heaven!
• Usmash and upB out of shield when the opponent attacked your shield! GLORIOUS! (now you do a grab or jump respectively if you don't wait long enough and press too early so you're still in the buffer window)
• DOUBLEJUMPING + doing an aerial while you're offstage, not just doing an aerial, because you were still having endlag of your previous move and buffering the jump + aerial so the jump will never happen and you die from the aerial since you didn't jump. What a lifesaver that would be.
• Random stuff makes you ALWAYS buffer nairs instead of doing other aerials. Like after Diddys sideB attack. If you ever buffer any aerial out of the kick, the grab attack... it'll ALWAYS become a nair. This happens after specific moves / actions. It'll also happen if you break out of Yoshis egg and buffer any aerial. It'll result in a nair. I'm not sure what all of them are, but this is annoying and really stupid.

After that, rolls are definitely a little stupid.
Though I wouldn't add 5 frames like Reflex and try changing it not too drastically for now and see how it goes. It's really difficult to react to (you basically have to predict it to react with the right punish), EVEN if you predict a roll you might be too late to do anything. The next roll is on the way (hi for glory players)!
I guess I'd try to add like 3 frames to them, covering with +3 more frames of invicibility. There just needs to be a little more time to react to them, but it shouldn't be overdone. Though I'm not sure how exactly rolls were in Brawl, where they could still be good, but not as broken as in Smash4.
I agree with the less length for some rolls. I guess this is a personal problem for not studying the rolls of each character, but it's really annoying to always have different roll distances... really long ones are obviously the best. Sometimes you stand in a zoning range just out of the range where the characters could hit each other, and if the opponent tries to roll into you you can just grab him... but some characters go soo far that they land behind you. That's annoying... Not sure if I'd really change that, I guess characters should be different... it can be memorized if you work on it.

And now would come character specific changes. But that would probably be too long of a list.
Buffs for some characters obviously.
And I'd personally nerf Sheik just a super tiny bit more. Maybe her upB damage / knockback, since this move is super scary and let's her get super early kills (if in rage) in 50:50 situations. And it shouldn't fill 2 bucket units. And of course change needles so that they aren't op. Also maybe something like a little more grablag if missed like with Diddy Kong.
Besides that Lumas base knockback a little weaker so that moves don't KO you at like 30 sometimes.
After that maybe ZSS' upB knockback. Otherwise I'm good with nerfs.

All of this, and add edge slipping while in shield and I'd be very happy.

About rolls: Standardize them to 32 frames or increase the fast rolls by a few frames and vastly reduce the distance gained.

 

[Bowserlick]

Take away Sheik's shield.

 

[Raijinken]

One thing I'd like to happen is added shield stun. I really dislike the all or very little approach when it comes to smash 4 shield damage.
But it is pretty tricky to balance because of the multiple problems that can arise from just adding more shield stun.
Moves like Ryu's heavy ftilt and Ganondorf's aerial down b will become even more deadlier since the opponent cannot get out of shield between the two hitboxes on both moves. So to balance, I would say tone done the shield breaking moves of the game by at least 20%.
Either that or just decrease endlag on moves so it can link properly into shield pressuring situations.
EDIT: forgot Ryu had two ftilts.

Sorta on this subject, I would not complain if perfect shields were vulnerable to Shield Breaker. Anything that instakills a shield should do the same to a perfect. They're strong enough just for letting you act immediately.

Another thought that sprung to mind was momentum transfer to aerial on jump.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Sorta on this subject, I would not complain if perfect shields were vulnerable to Shield Breaker. Anything that instakills a shield should do the same to a perfect. They're strong enough just for letting you act immediately.

Another thought that sprung to mind was momentum transfer to aerial on jump.

Personally, I think that a perfect shield should never break but should still be subject to shield damage. So if you take something that does like 60 shield damage on a perfect shield… well, then any attempt to shield anything afterward will result in an instant break since your shield is at -10 health, and you'll have to wait for it to get back to positive before you can use it again.

Also I agree on allowing buffering of more than 1 input. Especially due to the massive amount of hitlag in this game. A change to the buffer to allow multiple inputs (including multiple same inputs) would make moves like the Mach Tornado much more usable. It would also drastically improve Ryu's game to be able to Heavy DTilt and input down-forward > forward > B during the animation to EX Hadouken as soon as the Heavy DTilt connects. Heck, he'd even be able to EX Shoryuken out of it if the player had really fast fingers.

 

[Pink'd]

Take away Sheik's shield.

Topic for another board, but wouldn't it be neat if Sakurai introduced a character that was OP but had no dodge, roll, or shield??

 

[Raijinken]

Topic for another board, but wouldn't it be neat if Sakurai introduced a character that was OP but had no dodge, roll, or shield??

We call these "glass cannons", and depending on what ways they were OP, they would either dominate the metagame utterly, or be a total joke.

Personally, I think that a perfect shield should never break but should still be subject to shield damage. So if you take something that does like 60 shield damage on a perfect shield… well, then any attempt to shield anything afterward will result in an instant break since your shield is at -10 health, and you'll have to wait for it to get back to positive before you can use it again.

Also I agree on allowing buffering of more than 1 input. Especially due to the massive amount of hitlag in this game. A change to the buffer to allow multiple inputs (including multiple same inputs) would make moves like the Mach Tornado much more usable. It would also drastically improve Ryu's game to be able to Heavy DTilt and input down-forward > forward > B during the animation to EX Hadouken as soon as the Heavy DTilt connects. Heck, he'd even be able to EX Shoryuken out of it if the player had really fast fingers.

I could see that being a somewhat fair implementation, but I think that moves designed to break shields, so much that it's literally their name, shouldn't flop immediately from a (rather easy to time) perfect shield. The shield damage idea isn't bad, the question becomes: how relevant would it be when shields recharge pretty quickly and when, with your freedom to act immediately on perfect shield, you can just escape and wait for that recharge, essentially turning what would be a punish (for one player or the other) into a reset to neutral?

Also, I'm not sure if you saw Low Tier City 3 doubles yesterday or not, but I'm currently inclined to think that anything making Ryu more effective is unnecessary. He's already pretty terrifying.

 

[ffdgh]

Would it be too much to ask for Sheik to get a tiny bit more lag on some of her attacks? Wouldn't want to completely ruin her.

Buff Peach's Down Smash a bit, cut some end lag on her down B, and whatever else would make me happy.

I'd be completely ok if some rolls were a bit slower.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

We call these "glass cannons", and depending on what ways they were OP, they would either dominate the metagame utterly, or be a total joke.


I could see that being a somewhat fair implementation, but I think that moves designed to break shields, so much that it's literally their name, shouldn't flop immediately from a (rather easy to time) perfect shield. The shield damage idea isn't bad, the question becomes: how relevant would it be when shields recharge pretty quickly and when, with your freedom to act immediately on perfect shield, you can just escape and wait for that recharge, essentially turning what would be a punish (for one player or the other) into a reset to neutral?

Also, I'm not sure if you saw Low Tier City 3 doubles yesterday or not, but I'm currently inclined to think that anything making Ryu more effective is unnecessary. He's already pretty terrifying.

I don't think it would do much right away, that's true. I was more thinking of a change like that along with an additional nerf to shield regen rate, so that being at -10 shield will actually have a major impact on your abilities in neutral for a bit. (Especially since even after you regain access to your shield it still leaves you with a window where mistiming a perfect shield on just about anything will result in a break.) Basically, landing a Shield Breaker wouldn't always give you an instant massive advantage, but it would put the foe in a tight spot that could easily remain tight if you're smart about it, such as continuing to occasionally mix uncharged or partial-charge Shield Breakers into your game plan. Even if you don't get a free full-charge tipper FSmash on them, a foe who's afraid to shield is still an easier target.

 

[ymtah]

I don't think it would do much right away, that's true. I was more thinking of a change like that along with an additional nerf to shield regen rate, so that being at -10 shield will actually have a major impact on your abilities in neutral for a bit. (Especially since even after you regain access to your shield it still leaves you with a window where mistiming a perfect shield on just about anything will result in a break.) Basically, landing a Shield Breaker wouldn't always give you an instant massive advantage, but it would put the foe in a tight spot that could easily remain tight if you're smart about it, such as continuing to occasionally mix uncharged or partial-charge Shield Breakers into your game plan. Even if you don't get a free full-charge tipper FSmash on them, a foe who's afraid to shield is still an easier target.

would players be able to input rolls and spotdodges without instantly having their shield broken while its at negative durability? im not familiar enough with shields to know if rolling or spot dodging at all count as having your shield up for even the smallest amount of time at startup

 

[iguess]

Peach's vegetables out of the ground quicker, some more hitstun, maybe some actual shieldstun? Peach needs those turnips in this game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something that I think would be a really cool change to shields is if a buffered shield had a reduced number of frames to powershield with (either one or zero). More precision for large benefits, please.

 

[Balgorxz]

+1 frame startup on airdodge
buff zelda and samus
increase needles endlagg
bring back FoD
keep everything else the same

 

[MarioMeteor]

Buff Samus, but take away her broken roll

Now I've heard everything.

-Remove Rage.
-Bring back DACUSing and stutter-stepping.
-Remove the Vanish/Oil Panic bull****.
-Increase the knockback on Sheik's forward tilt, the ending lag on forward air, and decrease Needle's knockback.
-Fix the hitboxes on ledges.
-Give me Melee Jigglypuff back.
-Give me Melee Dr. Mario back.
-Make Sonic less cancer.
-Make customs easier to get.
-Nerf Quick Attack.
-Nerf Greninja.
-Buff Zelda's up tilt by one percent.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I would probably make a few changes to the Game Engine such as
- Make Rolling have longer animations /end-lag.
- Make Shields not be Frame 1.
- More Cool down on using Air-dodges or less invincibility.

Character wise
- Give him either better auto-cancels on his fair/bair or give him less lag on them
- If he's given less lag on aerials, then buff his grab game some more pls, it's silly seeing his grab having such high base knock back and then look at other characters .
- Fair having less lag (16 -> 14/13/ or 12)
- Bair having less lag (17 -> 15)
- Down-Throw having much less base knock back allowing for follow-ups
Same as Marth above

- Less Lag on Falco Lasers,
- Revert his dair to Brawl dair.

Basically give characters less lag in general, characters such as Charizard need less lag in general otherwise they just don't function against top/high tiers.

 

[|RK|]

Fix Samus, mainly. Faster missiles, make dsmash stronger, Melee/Brawl Nair...

 

[Raijinken]

I would probably make a few changes to the Game Engine such as
- Make Rolling have longer animations /end-lag.
- Make Shields not be Frame 1.
- More Cool down on using Air-dodges or less invincibility.

Character wise
- Give him either better auto-cancels on his fair/bair or give him less lag on them
- If he's given less lag on aerials, then buff his grab game some more pls, it's silly seeing his grab having such high base knock back and then look at other characters .
- Fair having less lag (16 -> 14/13/ or 12)
- Bair having less lag (17 -> 15)
- Down-Throw having much less base knock back allowing for follow-ups
Same as Marth above

- Less Lag on Falco Lasers,
- Revert his bair to Brawl bair.

Basically give characters have less lag in general, characters such as Charizard need less lag in general otherwise they just don't function against top/high tiers.

I haven't played Brawl in long enough to remember, but man Falco's bair is wonderful in 4.

Agreed on the lag reductions though. The tougher question is whether high startup or high lag would make for a better balancing point for strength.

 

[pikazz]

Global:
- Make the shield break easier or make the shield regenerate much slower
- add 5-7 frames extra shield stun except on perfect shielding
- all fast rollers is little slower while the slowest is untouched
- some moves that have too long end lag gets less end lag

:
- Make his DownB much less endlag by like 10-20 frames. (really uneccesary that he cant move until the MK walks)
- buff his SideB super armor to 2-5% damage resistance and its size. (really uneccesary that he cant plow down really small projectiles/Attacks like Wario can)
- Decrease his start up and end lag on his B attack or make the move "Storeable" or "Aimable"
- SH NAir Autocancel
- FSmash can break Shields easily
- increase the knockback on Bthrow so its a killmove
- decrease the knockback and angle on DThrow so its has a follow up move
- Longer or Faster Grab

:
- All her Air Moves Autocancel on SH
- SideB has Less Endlag
- UpB has bigger hitbox and longer active hitboxes
- UThrow has more knockback and can kill earlier
- DThrow has less knockback and angled so it has a follow up move
- Less Damage, Knockback and angled adjust on his Jab, allowing Jab Lock at 80%

:
- Damaging Charging ShadowBall
- Faster Tilts
- Less End Lag on Up Tilt
- DThrow endlag has less lag to have a proper follow up

:
- Either give the needles less damage/less knockback or make the needles Flinchness except for the last hit
- longer endlag on her FTilt and FAir
- DThrow and FThrow adjust in knockback and KBG

:
- His SideB puts him into freefall
- longer endlag on B
- more knockback on Explosion Peagun B

 

[Atrabilious]

- A minor boost to his aerial movement speed would be nice.
- Return the reflect threshold on his gordos to 3% like it was in vanilla. Admittedly gordos are a pretty solid zoning/edgeguard tool as they are but I didn't (and still don't) feel like they were particularly oppressive on release, you just had to respect them. I don't think buffing them back to 3% would be out of the question.

/
- Reduce end lag on f-air. Double fair out of a short hop please. If not an end-lag reduction, then some auto-cancels on their aerials would be welcome.
- Some guaranteed follow-ups out of throws for racking up damage.

Part of me would also like shield breaker to still do damage against perfect shielding though that may be OTT. Strikes me as daft that a tool designed for the purpose of countering shield use can be beaten by shielding but that's just me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One of the great things about how they've gone about the patches is that there aren't a whole lot of characters left that are in desperate need of a buff/nerf dump and most of the cast could just do with some minor tweaks. When the game first came out, the following were largely considered low tier or just plain underwhelming:

(and )

Characters who have been significantly buffed since then:



Characters who have received minor buffs with almost every major update but arguably need more help:

(and)

This said, the team has done a pretty great job given how the game hasn't even been out for a year yet. According to my list, the only characters left that really deserve a showering of gifts from Santa Sakurai are:



Add In: I guess I forgot the Mii Fighters. have both received significant buffs and had some game breaking traits removed so all three of them have pretty much been covered too.

 

[pikazz]

One of the great things about how they've gone about the patches is that there aren't a whole lot of characters left that are in desperate need of a buff/nerf dump and most of the cast could just do with some minor tweaks. When the game first came out, the following were largely considered low tier or just plain underwhelming:

(and )

Characters who have been significantly buffed since then:



Characters who have received minor buffs with almost every major update but arguably need more help:

(and)

This said, the team has done a pretty great job given how the game hasn't even been out for a year yet. According to my list, the only characters left that really deserve a showering of gifts from Santa Sakurai left are:

pretty much agree with this post. first we need to buff the 4 poor kids, when we need the other 3 more

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Samus:
— Increased damage and reach on DSmash.
— Make jab combo properly!
— Decreased endlag, increased range and tracking, and increased damage on Homing Missile.
— Increased damage/knockback on Super Missile. To differentiate it from Gunner Super Missile, it doesn't get an endlag reduction, instead gaining increased power.
— Less endlag and increased damage on Morph Bomb. Also, significantly increased height gain, decreased lag, and increased horizontal mobility when being boosted into the air by your own Morph Bomb explosion.
— Make Up Smash link properly.
— Screw Attack gains intangibility for a brief window before the hitbox comes out. Also, increased hitbox size.
— Decreased endlag or increased knock back on FTilt.
— Decreased startup on DTilt.
— Slightly increased knockback on ZAir to increase hitstun, thus allowing true combo into full-power Charge Shot.
— Add GFX to Dash Attack to properly indicate hitbox placement.

Dedede:
— Greater range and/or shorter start-up on Inhale.
— Increase Gordo reflection threshold back to 3%.
— Increase knockback on stars created from Super Dedede Jump.
— Slightly increase lateral air movement speed.

Meta Knight:
— Significantly decrease endlag and landing lag on FAir.
— Decrease amount of mashing needed for full Mach Tornado.
— Add slight forward movement on Drill Rush startup.
— Increase range and damage on all Smashes.
— Decrease endlag on UTilt.
— Increase range and knockback on DAir.
— Increase lateral air movement speed.
— Put back Brawl sword SFX pls.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Not sure why people keep suggesting for buffs. All three received significant buffs in 1.08 and got even more in 1.10 so how this has impacted their metagame as a whole hasn't really been seen yet. Their respective players were ecstatic with the 1.08 buffs so I can only imagine they're rolling around with joy on the floor with the latest update. It was largely argeed that all three were on the fast track for unquestionable viability and now their chances are even better. At this point, it makes me wonder what people expect of them.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Not sure why people keep suggesting for buffs. All three received significant buffs in 1.08 and got even more in 1.10 so how this has impacted their metagame as a whole hasn't really been seen yet. Their respective players were ecstatic with the 1.08 buffs so I can only imagine they're rolling around with joy on the floor with the latest update. It was largely argeed that all three were on the fast track for unquestionable viability and now their chances are even better. At this point, it makes me wonder what people expect of them.

I was messing with v1.1.0 Meta Knight and couldn't find any way to make his FAir useful at all. Perhaps it's my inexperience with the character, but his Forward and Down Smashes seem so short-ranged and high-startup as to be impossible to land and FAir has so much lag whether completed in the air or on the ground that it seems downright unusable, having no follow-up potential or KO power. And standard Drill Rush wasn't touched at all that I can see so it's still horribly slow and not really good for much. High-Speed Drill is good in that it's actually possible to land it and a foe who's hit will be caught in the whole move regardless of anything, but the default still sucks in my experience. Also Mach Tornado requires a stupid amount of mashing to get the full move off.

I don't have any problem with the character as a whole, just a few moves that are really weak and generally not useful.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Shields that come out frame one are no problem to me, it's in Melee as well. But the difference is that in Melee, shield grew in size (like 2 frames) while in 4 it just kinda pops out there.
The latest post by @ TheReflexWonder on this thread is really interesting.
Not sure about ground to air momentum being back, doesn't that make RAR considerably harder? (I'm not sure someone educate me)
In terms of characters, 4 isn't really far from balancing the whole cast. It'll look optimal in 2 patches at this pace.

 

[MarioMeteor]

One of the great things about how they've gone about the patches is that there aren't a whole lot of characters left that are in desperate need of a buff/nerf dump and most of the cast could just do with some minor tweaks. When the game first came out, the following were largely considered low tier or just plain underwhelming:

(and )

Characters who have been significantly buffed since then:



Characters who have received minor buffs with almost every major update but arguably need more help:

(and)

This said, the team has done a pretty great job given how the game hasn't even been out for a year yet. According to my list, the only characters left that really deserve a showering of gifts from Santa Sakurai are:



Add In: I guess I forgot the Mii Fighters. have both received significant buffs and had some game breaking traits removed so all three of them have pretty much been covered too.

I'd say the Good Doctor deserves a visit as well. So far, he's received changes that are either insignificant or aren't enough.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Topic for another board, but wouldn't it be neat if Sakurai introduced a character that was OP but had no dodge, roll, or shield??

It would be little Mac all over again.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Give DDD some better frame data, make Gordos take 3% to hit back again, and less Fair landing lag, buff Bowser's Up-B knockback scaling on the ground, nerf Kirby's Dair, give Doc's Dair a spike to make it a more viable option and buff Fair KBG, nerf Sheik's needles' damage and increase FTilt's knockback, buff Rest to kill earlier and give Pound more damage, maybe fix Rollout from suiciding off the ledge, give Samus a less starting lag on her Dair and maybe more horizontal control on Screw Attack. That's all I can think of, really.

 

[Powerman293]

Better throws for Marth. Down throw having a bit less knockback would help. But Forward throw needs a serious reduction on knockback for better follow ups. The only follow up I know of for Marth that maybe benefits from the 50 miles he throws people is with Crescent slash.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Give some love. He's good in this game, but he can be better:
Greatly reduce end lag on Spark Shock
Make Side Smash come out faster and have less ending lag
Make Hard Knuckle go slightly farther

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not the only one laughing at the Marth buff requests, right? (Well okay, besides the throws.) Roy is the bad one, not Marth.