Ideal way to use Ness?

[GrnFzzTgr]

I'm a Kirby main, but my secondary is Ness, and I can't help but feel my Ness is really lacking. (though I am still trying to learn him) My play style has a large focus on aerials, my most used moves are B-Air and Fair, (I almost never use Dair due to it needing a sweetspot) but I feel like it's getting me easily punished, and is rather hard to land in lag. On the ground I feel like I have the most trouble, because Nes's tilts feel liek they have really short range, and the RNG doesn't seem to favor me when trying to trip witht he d-tilt. In the air, I feel like my Ness is very predictable.

I admittedly don't use PK Fire as much as I probably should because I find it to be very punishable, and my opponents just DI out of the fire, or dodge my follow ups with Fair. My recovery is rather weak too- I can not for the life of me get down PK Thunder bouncing, so if a stage has walls, and I'm stuck next to them when trying to return to stage, I'm pretty much dead. I have practice Thunder bouncing, but it seems really inconsistent.

So I'm asking yo Ness mains, what's the best way to use Ness, what should I practice doing? I know about the short hop back-air to nair, but I haven't seen much use for it, same with a short hopped air dodge into an aerial. I don't really play in for glory anymore either, since that mode just frustrates me and I feel like I don't learn good habits in that environment. I've perused this section of the boards but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for. I guess something like the threads in the Kirby forums. informative threads and guides, and input from the other players.

 

[291C]

Nair is a fantastic move, barely any lag coming out. I've started using dsmash to punish roll dodges.
A pretty common chain that people are becoming pretty familiar with is Ness's dthrow>fair. A lot of people I've been fighting try to air dodge right after the dthrow, so I like to change it up by following with an up smash.

Also, I love ness's jabs and his ftilts are better than you'd think.

 

[Sabaca]

The ideal way to learn Ness is to watch tons of games of NAKATs Ness. You have to watch closely and see why he is doing the moves when he is doing them and where he is doing them and what moves he is doing. There is tons of gameplay of him and he is consistently placing first and second on Tournaments. Ness Players have besides sheiks and rosalinas the most content out there to learn from imo.

 

[Ranias]

If you are having lag problems, it can mess up your recovery timing. Did you know that you can check for lag by switching colors in character select and seeing if it lags there before starting the fight?

I mained Kirby in Brawl, so I understand that you may feel more comfortable in the air, but Ness's aerial game isn't actually that great. I mostly use Ness's aerials for followups from down throw and such. If you want to approach with an aerial, I suggest using Nair. It is generally safer to throw out a PK Thunder against airborne opponents or a PK Fire on landing opponents.

As for grounded combat, sending out PK Fire at max range is relatively safe. You can also try pivoting PK Fire to try to space well for it. Ness's dash attack is really good (comes out fast, multi-hitting, long range). Ness's tilts aren't that great for most situations since they are really short range, but they do come out very fast.

I actually can't get the timing for PK Thunder bouncing either... I can however consistently recover directly next to a wall if I'm not lagging. I suggest practicing recovering from all angles instead of practicing PK Thunder bouncing. If you are trying to recover directly next to a wall, you have to place the PK thunder directly under Ness, or he will bounce off.

 

[Uffe]

From the looks of it, Sabaca doesn't look like he uses Ness. However, what he said is true. I'm really trying to use Ness to the best of my ability, and just recently, I started watching NAKAT's Ness on YouTube. You may learn a thing or two from watching his videos. I know I have, but I still have a long way to go before I get as good as him.

 

[Screk]

Or you can watch FOW and ask him question. To me Ness is all about using his tools to help you get an advantage much like the Mother games themselves.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Sorry I haven't responded guys! Went into surgery the day after I posted this, probably won't be able to play again until after Wii U comes out. Should be mostly recovered by then! I'll read everything that was said up to now. Is there any more input too?

Also for the timing of the PK thunder bounce? I can't get it at all. I just hit the wall and die. I only managed to do it twice in training mode... Do I have to do it a certain way?

What techniques does Ness have at his disposal that I could read up on? I know PK magnet can absorb bomb explosions now, I even know about the silly corneria glitch, and you guys said watch FOW and Nakat? If they're using any techs I don't know about, I'll have to study those to know what's going on in their vids! I'm still adjusting to the fact that the yo-yo doesn't hang when charging it anymore. I also feel like I have trouble protecting myself with it in smash 4?

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

If you are having lag problems, it can mess up your recovery timing. Did you know that you can check for lag by switching colors in character select and seeing if it lags there before starting the fight?

I mained Kirby in Brawl, so I understand that you may feel more comfortable in the air, but Ness's aerial game isn't actually that great. I mostly use Ness's aerials for followups from down throw and such. If you want to approach with an aerial, I suggest using Nair. It is generally safer to throw out a PK Thunder against airborne opponents or a PK Fire on landing opponents.

As for grounded combat, sending out PK Fire at max range is relatively safe. You can also try pivoting PK Fire to try to space well for it. Ness's dash attack is really good (comes out fast, multi-hitting, long range). Ness's tilts aren't that great for most situations since they are really short range, but they do come out very fast.

I actually can't get the timing for PK Thunder bouncing either... I can however consistently recover directly next to a wall if I'm not lagging. I suggest practicing recovering from all angles instead of practicing PK Thunder bouncing. If you are trying to recover directly next to a wall, you have to place the PK thunder directly under Ness, or he will bounce off.

I'll be sure to practice from all angles. The hardest one I have is right up against a wall. I can never seem to go straight up. I seem to go off at a slight angle, just far enough out of reach of the ledge.

 

[NAKAT]

Ask me questions guys!

 

[Luco]

I'll be sure to practice from all angles. The hardest one I have is right up against a wall. I can never seem to go straight up. I seem to go off at a slight angle, just far enough out of reach of the ledge.

Actually, the great thing about PKT bouncing is you don't have to time it... kinda.

Basically you can do it any time between when you've physically bounced off to when Ness is in helpless state. Basically that period of time where he's flipping off the wall. This means you can spam pressing upB and it'll work; but that also means you'll probably mess up recovering on that if you're not careful so you just wanna do it as soon as you've bounced off. You'll be fine with it eventually! =D

 

[Ranias]

Actually, the great thing about PKT bouncing is you don't have to time it... kinda.

Basically you can do it any time between when you've physically bounced off to when Ness is in helpless state. Basically that period of time where he's flipping off the wall. This means you can spam pressing upB and it'll work; but that also means you'll probably mess up recovering on that if you're not careful so you just wanna do it as soon as you've bounced off. You'll be fine with it eventually! =D

Yeah, lol. I just realized a few days ago that the only reason I couldn't PKT bounce was because I didn't hit the wall horizontally. I think it never works if you bounce at an angle.

Ask me questions guys!

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about something, lol. I'm sure you know better than me.

 

[Noa.]

Ask me questions guys!

Have you played against any good Sonics? And do you have any tips for that matchup?

 

[NAKAT]

Have you played against any good Sonics? And do you have any tips for that matchup?

Shut down Sonic's spin Dash with either PK Fire or by jumping over it. Do NOT shield it. Just challenge it with PK Fire or avoid it all together. Get a lead and keep it so he is forced to approach the entire game. % is crucial because the higher you have on him the more desperate he will become and have to over commit. Never challenge his Fsmash let alone punish him for using it because it is deceptive in range and speed so you will die. Just play a safe run away game, but when you get in really take advantage of Ness's amazing aerials and grabs to wrack up damage. When sonic is off stage either edge guard him with PK Thunder if he is above the ledge or if he is under you should fall of bair/nair him into or away from the stage. Into the stage at higher percents will net you a stage spike and if they tech just follow up with another aerial!

 

[Noa.]

Shut down Sonic's spin Dash with either PK Fire or by jumping over it. Do NOT shield it. Just challenge it with PK Fire or avoid it all together. Get a lead and keep it so he is forced to approach the entire game. % is crucial because the higher you have on him the more desperate he will become and have to over commit. Never challenge his Fsmash let alone punish him for using it because it is deceptive in range and speed so you will die. Just play a safe run away game, but when you get in really take advantage of Ness's amazing aerials and grabs to wrack up damage. When sonic is off stage either edge guard him with PK Thunder if he is above the ledge or if he is under you should fall of bair/nair him into or away from the stage. Into the stage at higher percents will net you a stage spike and if they tech just follow up with another aerial!

Yeah thanks for the advice. I lost to a sonic at the previous tourney I went to. He was good and ended up winning the whole thing. It was my first time playing against sonic and I basically had whiplash lol. I tried to use pk Fire to beat spin dash but I was using it ok predictably honestly.

 

[Luco]

Yeah, lol. I just realized a few days ago that the only reason I couldn't PKT bounce was because I didn't hit the wall horizontally. I think it never works if you bounce at an angle.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about something, lol. I'm sure you know better than me.

If you press up on the control pad as you make contact with a wall in PKT2, you're more likely to slide up it/do the 'V', which is where you bounce off but you're still in PKT2. That's deadly, sadly.

If you press down on the control pad when making contact with a wall in this state, the angle increases where you'll actually bounce off to go into helpless. That's when you can use it again. =D

 

[Noa.]

If you press up on the control pad as you make contact with a wall in PKT2, you're more likely to slide up it/do the 'V', which is where you bounce off but you're still in PKT2. That's deadly, sadly.

If you press down on the control pad when making contact with a wall in this state, the angle increases where you'll actually bounce off to go into helpless. That's when you can use it again. =D

Wow I had no idea that holding up or down after you've already been hit by pk thunder would affect your trajectory.

 

[Luco]

Wow I had no idea that holding up or down after you've already been hit by pk thunder would affect your trajectory.

It's not so much that it affects your trajectory so much as it affects what will happen if Ness hits a wall while in PKT2. Holding up is great when you slide up the wall, but not so good when you V off it.

Ness is more likely to slide up the wall of the stage if he's used PKT2 a bit further away from the wall and comes into contact with the wall in the latter half of his distance travelled.

On the other hand, he seems more likely to V off the wall whilst still in PKT2 animation if you try to slide up the wall but Ness makes contact with it within the first 1/2 or 1/3 of the distance travelled by PKT2.

This was actually kind of similar to Brawl, except in Brawl you could only V if coming up under the ledge or if you PKT2-ed in to the ledge itself and occasionally you'd V yourself back onstage. It was actually really cool when it worked, and in a couple rare circumstances it's netted me a kill and possibly even the game before because peeps were so surprised by it hehe.

Peeps can correct me if they feel i'm wrong here.

 

[Uffe]

Or you can watch FOW and ask him question. To me Ness is all about using his tools to help you get an advantage much like the Mother games themselves.

Asking FOW would probably be beneficial. And you're right about Ness' attacks. PKT is a great tool in this game actually. As long as you don't use it too close to your opponent, you'll be fine. Similarly with PKF. Spacing a nair > nair is also good. Poke the shield, if they don't let up, retreat it. If they do, go in for the second nair. Nair being neutral air, by the way. Down air is pretty good if you're feeling like a thrillseeker. It's not as good as it was in Brawl, but you can still land it, and doing so will feel great if you land it.

 

[Uffe]

Ask me questions guys!

Dude, it's NAKAT! :D I really like your Ness. I'll take your tips when fighting another Sonic. How about Rosaluma? What is your take on her? I get gimped by her quite often. She's also tough to grab because of that dumb Luma. Even then, without Luma, I still have a hard time grabbing her.

 

[Luco]

Spacing PK Fire by dashing and reversing the PK Fire seems to give me the best results. It also seems to punish failed dash attacks more than it should.

On the other hand, dash attacks are rarely good so there you go. =P

 

[Funkermonster]

Ask me questions guys!

Best way to approach as Ness?

 

[NAKAT]

Best way to approach as Ness?

Fair and Nair! Well spaced dash attacks are good as well!

 

[NAKAT]

Dude, it's NAKAT! :D I really like your Ness. I'll take your tips when fighting another Sonic. How about Rosaluma? What is your take on her? I get gimped by her quite often. She's also tough to grab because of that dumb Luma. Even then, without Luma, I still have a hard time grabbing her.

Recovery is important. I advise you to never get greedy offstage and limit how much you go off to edgeguard her. You should only edge guard her off stage when she is in her UpB animation or with PK thunder. ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH seriously do not ever fall under or equal to the ledge. Recover high or you will die from Rosalinas Down B. On stage when she sends luma at you hit him with a fsmash on reaction not only will this damage/kill luma but it can potentially net an early KO on Rosalina because Luma will turn into your own hitbox and his knockback will be doubles. You can also jump over luma and light her up with PK fires. Always knock Luma off or damage her whenever you can. Respect Rosalina's tilts because they come out very fast and are extremely hard to punish. PK fire is vital to space yourself vs her as well as SH fairs. When you grab her pummlel once to make Luma flinch and then throw her. When she is above you this is where you can really hurt her. Juggle her and frame trap her as much as possible. She can't camp you with normal star bits so when you get the lead ALWAYS force her to approach you. This matchup is not as bad as you think. I find it 55-45 or at worst 6-4 Rosa's favor. The most important thing is to ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH ALWAYS RECOVER. Oh, ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH!

 

[Uffe]

Recovery is important. I advise you to never get greedy offstage and limit how much you go off to edgeguard her. You should only edge guard her off stage when she is in her UpB animation or with PK thunder. ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH seriously do not ever fall under or equal to the ledge. Recover high or you will die from Rosalinas Down B. On stage when she sends luma at you hit him with a fsmash on reaction not only will this damage/kill luma but it can potentially net an early KO on Rosalina because Luma will turn into your own hitbox and his knockback will be doubles. You can also jump over luma and light her up with PK fires. Always knock Luma off or damage her whenever you can. Respect Rosalina's tilts because they come out very fast and are extremely hard to punish. PK fire is vital to space yourself vs her as well as SH fairs. When you grab her pummlel once to make Luma flinch and then throw her. When she is above you this is where you can really hurt her. Juggle her and frame trap her as much as possible. She can't camp you with normal star bits so when you get the lead ALWAYS force her to approach you. This matchup is not as bad as you think. I find it 55-45 or at worst 6-4 Rosa's favor. The most important thing is to ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH ALWAYS RECOVER. Oh, ALWAYS RECOVER HIGH!

Thanks a lot for this information. If the upcoming update is true about making Luma appear every 13 seconds to match the Wii U version, then hopefully this will help Ness out a little more with the match up. I'll have to try that f-smash on Luma and see if it flies into Rosa. Could be very useful.

 

[Luco]

Thanks a lot for this information. If the upcoming update is true about making Luma appear every 13 seconds to match the Wii U version, then hopefully this will help Ness out a little more with the match up. I'll have to try that f-smash on Luma and see if it flies into Rosa. Could be very useful.

Yupyup, it does and it's won me the game before!

Grrr, I wish I could upload that replay to show you. it was hilarious. :D

 

[Uffe]

Yupyup, it does and it's won me the game before!

Grrr, I wish I could upload that replay to show you. it was hilarious. :D

I'd still like to use it against her. I absolutely despise Rosaluma.

 

[Noa.]

I find it difficult to fsmash Luma shot just because of the 3ds controls. But that will all change with a c stick.

 

[Brent Bruthaa]

I use a lot of PK fire to initiate combos. that might help

 

[CarterParrish]

Nair is a fantastic move, barely any lag coming out. I've started using dsmash to punish roll dodges.
A pretty common chain that people are becoming pretty familiar with is Ness's dthrow>fair. A lot of people I've been fighting try to air dodge right after the dthrow, so I like to change it up by following with an up smash.

Also, I love ness's jabs and his ftilts are better than you'd think.

it might not be very reliable, but you can dtilt trip the opponent and hope they roll to work in the dsmash punish

 

[Caltraps]

I personally have found a lot of success with PK Flash if they're trying to recover low, but Nair seems to work quite well if they're trying to recover higher.

 

[Unkie Mike]

Ask me questions guys!

Oh hell yes, what's up man? Videos of your Ness have helped me improve quite a bit; thanks for that. A few questions for your consideration:

1. I'm curious about how you choose to deal with the Mario matchup. I've got Jumpman in my region, and his Mario play is the tightest and most responsive I've ever seen. I'm having a hard time stopping his approach, and keeping him in the air. I'm convinced it's not possible to EVER safely challenge his smash attacks, and therefore both chasing him down and recovering high are tricky for me, due to the threat of that damned up smash. Recovering low, of course, means having to avoid the cape and the dunk. Your thoughts?

2. Greninja's hydro pump. I got pretty decisively stomped in a tourney match the other day by hydro pump gimps on recovery. Is this another character that, like Rosalina, almost always requires recovering high?

3. Stage control and the ledge game. I feel like losing control of the center with Ness (especially on BF or Yoshi's) mandates a very slow, patient crawl back inward, as trying to dive back into the center usually means getting Ness's landing lag weaponized by the opponent and sent directly into his face. So I tend to retreat to the ledge when faced with quick edgeguarders like Falcon and Sheik, but what should my next move be after catching the ledge?

Thanks for stopping by, dude.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

I make the most of every single move of his, apart from his up tilt. Try the PK Fire > down throw > x3 f-air combo. That's always fun. Never forget his yo-yos! This is the only game I've found them useful and can actually kill with reliability.

- Another fun thing to do is use his PK Thunder on people just off under the stage. If you hit it right, they can be be buonced to just above your head, so follow up with an u-air or n-air. The PK Thunder jolt has alot of hit stun with little knock back when it hits, so if you're close by, you can guarantee to follow up with an aerial.

- ANOTHER amazing buff PK Thunder has, is now that when it's first performed, it goes straight through people and stuns them, so because of that, you can try curve it round and hit them with a PK Thunder 2! It's hard to do, but God is it satisfying.

- With PK Flash, like Caltraps said, you can use it on people trying to recover. It doesn't always have to hit, but it sure as hell scares the opponent, so they are more likely to try and stall in the air, and then use their recovery too late which leads to their death.

I can go on, as I find the majority of Ness's moves useful in their own right. The only ones I don't find useful now are his d-air (WHY WAS IT NERFED), his u-tilt, and his f-tilt. Even his jab attack is good.

 

[Caltraps]

- With PK Flash, like Caltraps said, you can use it on people trying to recover. It doesn't always have to hit, but it sure as hell scares the opponent, so they are more likely to try and stall in the air, and then use their recovery too late which leads to their death.

Relating to this, regardless of whether or not you're hitting the PK Flash isn't actually necessary, as Tenchi said, it can scare your opponent more often than anything, hell I see a bunch of people getting too phazed by it that they desperately air dodge it, which can lead to them missing the edge and if you time it right, hitting them with the fully charged PK Flash after their invincibility frames end. Definitely satisfying

 

[misterOWAIN33]

PK Fire > Grab > DThrow > UAir/Fair. I find myself using this a lot. Of course, if you have any advice on this... it would be very appreciated.