Idea: Modification of the L-cancel

[smasher32]

We all know that there was Z-cancelling in SSB and L/R-cancelling in SSBM. So one thing we can all conclude is that there is a good chance L/R-cancelling will be in SSBB.

But what if they changed it?

Here is my idea: an L-cancel of different degrees. For example, I use an air attack and L-cancel with ideal timing therefore I get the least lag after I land. Let's say I'm a few frames off from the ideal L-cancel...then that should add a few frames to my landing. There might be a couple of different degrees up to the point where pressing it too early/late would result in no L-cancel.

What do you people think of my idea? Also, if this belongs in another topic, then...whoops .

 

[h1roshi]

interesting idea as it would reward people who play more technical and precise but might get too complicated in actual use...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Adi]

Hmm, I like it, it awards people with greater precision which always a good thing. The only thing I don't like is that with perfect L-canceling certain characters may get some unbeatable combos if the lag is low enough.

 

[THK]

I like it, but like previous mention, it might get out of hand.

 

[BigRick]

Well, I don't know how it could get out of hand...

''Perfect'' l-cancel --- halves lag
''Okay'' l-cancel --- 3/4 lag
Missed l-cancel --- full lag time

But anyways I dont really like like the idea. But ppl that know me probably know that I dont like that whole idea of l-canceling altogether...

Smash doesn't get deeper with this... it just makes the game look more like DDR

 

[THEmSHAKE]

I like that idea. Also the reward amounts could be character specific. Such as lag would be cut more for bowser compared to the cut for fox due to bowser's overall speed.

 

[maxpower1227]

I don't know about that...

"We found that trying to implement too much motion-sensory functionality can get in the way of the game. We're looking at keeping the control simple, as it has been," said Sakurai. "The Wii hardware has sockets for the GameCube controller, too. So I'll just say now that you may not want to throw away your GCN controller yet."

 

[Arc2012]

Meh. Don't you already have to time your L-cancel anyway? All this would really do is reward those without perfect timing as they would get some advantage over those who miss the L-cancel altogether. The person that hits the L-cancel perfectly would just be doing what they already should be doing.

 

[@ce]

Well, I don't know how it could get out of hand...

''Perfect'' l-cancel --- halves lag
''Okay'' l-cancel --- 3/4 lag
Missed l-cancel --- full lag time

thats exactly how i envisioned it. id love to have that in

 

[Adi]

Meh. Don't you already have to time your L-cancel anyway? All this would really do is reward those without perfect timing as they would get some advantage over those who miss the L-cancel altogether. The person that hits the L-cancel perfectly would just be doing what they already should be doing.

Well to L-cancel now you only need to push a trigger within 20 frames of landing. So if this system is implemented you can make it so that you hit a trigger within less than the 20 frames than you can lose more lag proportionally, I think that would be a cool little addition, kinda like powershielding.

 

[Hyperion]

Well to L-cancel now you only need to push a trigger within 20 frames of landing.

Actually, that's teching, L-cancelling is 6 frames before landing or the frame you hit the ground.

 

[ecstatic]

Personally, I don't see the need for Lcanceling at all. Before you misinterpret that, though, here me out.

The reason I think that Lcanceling is unnecessary is because it isn't really a move. The only things it opens up are more combo abilities, but they could just make the lag for the aerials that small anyways. Other than that, L-canceling doesn't really add anything to the depth of the game, unlike wavedashing and the like.

 

[THK]

Personally, I don't see the need for Lcanceling at all. Before you misinterpret that, though, here me out.

The reason I think that Lcanceling is unnecessary is because it isn't really a move. The only things it opens up are more combo abilities, but they could just make the lag for the aerials that small anyways. Other than that, L-canceling doesn't really add anything to the depth of the game, unlike wavedashing and the like.

You've got to be kidding, if it weren't for L-canceling I doubt I'd be using Ganondorf like I do.

 

[Justin Wiles]

L-canceling doesn't really add anything to the depth of the game, unlike wavedashing and the like.

That's the silliest thing I've ever read on these forums... EVER.

 

[Keige]

There's a reason why people use l canceling. Its not just "if no one L cancels, its the same as both people l canceling". It speeds up your character so that you can attack before they (the player) can react. Plus it lets you avoid punishment for whiffing an aerial. If there was no l canceling you would be screwed. It can allow you to make up for a previous mistake.

 

[dizzy]

Wavedashing is an advanced tactic that creates depth, because once learned, wavedashing becomes one of several strategic options. There are times to wavedash and times not to wavedash--it has unique advantages and disadvantages, and the player must consider whether it's more effective to wavedash, run, jump, or roll away in any given situation.

Not so with l-canceling. While l-canceling is also an advanced tactic, it only creates technical difficulty, not depth. There's nothing strategic about l-canceling. It's just a button press for its own sake--you embed it into muscle memory, and then you never have to think about it again. All you have to do is l-cancel every aerial that hits the ground, because you never have a reason not to cut your lag in half. The truth is that if l-canceling weren't in SSBM, but every aerial attack was designed with half its current lag, high-level SSBM strategies would be exactly the same.

 

[Killer Tree]

L canceling won't be in SSBB.

 

[JesterBox]

L-canceling doesn't really add anything to the depth of the game, unlike wavedashing and the like.

You have both over-estimated wave-dashing and under-estimated L-canceling in the same sentence.... Amazing. *shoots self in face*

@Killer Tree are you developing Brawl? NO

 

[Pyroloserkid]

I could see some infinates if the lag was reduced majorly.
L-Cancelling is good where it's at IMO.

 

[Team Giza]

Wavedashing is an advanced tactic that creates depth, because once learned, wavedashing becomes one of several strategic options. There are times to wavedash and times not to wavedash--it has unique advantages and disadvantages, and the player must consider whether it's more effective to wavedash, run, jump, or roll away in any given situation.

Not so with l-canceling. While l-canceling is also an advanced tactic, it only creates technical difficulty, not depth. There's nothing strategic about l-canceling. It's just a button press for its own sake--you embed it into muscle memory, and then you never have to think about it again. All you have to do is l-cancel every aerial that hits the ground, because you never have a reason not to cut your lag in half. The truth is that if l-canceling weren't in SSBM, but every aerial attack was designed with half its current lag, high-level SSBM strategies would be exactly the same.

Truth. L-canceling changes character balance and adds a technical learning curve, it does not add decisions and depth to the game since L-cancelling is always good and has no in-game cost to use. I mean heck, when do you not want half the lag?

It changes balance by taking off more frames from slower characters than faster characters. If a fast character had 14 frame lag after an aerial attack and a slow character had 26 frame lag after an attack. The slower character starts to close the gap of speed after aerials so it fixes balance of the game a bit.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

eh, l canceling is definitely a skill, and it's not exactly bothering most people...so I'd say leave it the way it is.

 

[psicicle]

You can get people to miss l-cancels, and that could be a place where it's "mindgame" qualities lie. Things like mario's cape, which raise the opponent, tend to make them miss their L-cancel, at least it does for me. I don't know if anybody consciously uses things to make people miss l-cancels though.

I don't know why, but I feel brawl won't be as great as melee without l-cancelling. It's just my preference that l-cancels stay in. Maybe make them a little easier or something because moves with a lot of hitstun are tough to l-cancel and they are often missed if you expect to hit a shield and instead miss the opponent.

 

[ecstatic]

That's the silliest thing I've ever read on these forums... EVER.

Can you and everyone else explain why it's so "silly"?

After you get down Lcanceling, and get it into muscle memory, it's just like the actual lag of the aerial is just smaller, because the only time people like Mew2King are going to miss an Lcancel is when they're drunk, and I highly doubt he'd be going to a tournament if he's too drunk to Lcancel consistently.

It speeds up your character so that you can attack before they (the player) can react. Plus it lets you avoid punishment for whiffing an aerial.

The slower character starts to close the gap of speed after aerials so it fixes balance of the game a bit.

I said in my original post that the developers could just make the lag as small as lcancels are in the first place, learn to read, because that solves both those arguments. Don't complain that then it would decrease depth because then the n00bs would be fast too. There are ways that have more depth that speed up your game (WD). Sakurai has even said that he wants the controls to be simplified, and that he wants to close the gap between pro and n00b more.

You can get people to miss l-cancels, and that could be a place where it's "mindgame" qualities lie. Things like mario's cape, which raise the opponent, tend to make them miss their L-cancel, at least it does for me. I don't know if anybody consciously uses things to make people miss l-cancels though.

If people would miss Lcancels like that, then they'd be screwed if they actually hit with the attack, because that creates a pause in your fall, and characters have different heights, meaning different timings. And if your gonna miss every aerial you put out, what's the point of aerials? (Don't say mindgames, anybody with a brain will quickly find out if you don't actually try to hit with aerials.)

 

[greenblob]

L-canceling should stay because it forces you to stay alert and allows you to punish people who make mistakes. You should have to put some effort for the benefit, even if it's barely noticeable.

 

[Hong]

There's a reason why people use l canceling. Its not just "if no one L cancels, its the same as both people l canceling". It speeds up your character so that you can attack before they (the player) can react. Plus it lets you avoid punishment for whiffing an aerial. If there was no l canceling you would be screwed. It can allow you to make up for a previous mistake.

You see, that's the problem. Aerials are often used over things like ftilts since with aerials, you can shffl and grab while they're still shield stunned. Aerials should be punishable unless the opposition strategically lands behind the defender.

L-cancelling is rather uneccessary in my opinion since as mentioned, it doesn't really go beyond becoming a norm. I mean, when you tech you can choose where you'll go after you tech. When you wavedash you choose where you'll wavedash. When you L-cancel, there's really no fork in the road since what happens afterwards was always tentative and linear since L-cancelling is just L-cancelling no matter what.

If not the possibility to remove L-cancelling, just get rid of aerials delays as a whole for everyone. (as said earlier.) If they don't it'll just forever remain redundant.

 

[psicicle]

L-cancels do force you to be conscious of where you are going to land also. I miss a lot of L-cancels where I do something like U-air from the ground onto a platform and don't have the L-cancel for that scenario in my muscle memory.

"If people would miss Lcancels like that, then they'd be screwed if they actually hit with the attack, because that creates a pause in your fall, and characters have different heights, meaning different timings. And if your gonna miss every aerial you put out, what's the point of aerials? (Don't say mindgames, anybody with a brain will quickly find out if you don't actually try to hit with aerials.)"

How many people train their muscle memory for L-cancels when hit with an unexpected cape from mario? I know that scenarios where you can make the opponent miss the L-cancel are rare and probably accidental most of the time anyway though.

I see L-canceling as a way to reward the more experienced, because even though I have been playing smash for about a year knowing L-cancels, I do miss them on occasion, whereas a pro would be almost flawless in L-cancels.

Anyway, the arguments against L-cancels are good because it is true that it doesn't add any intellectual depth, only technical depth. The only reason I want it in brawl is really because I think it would feel weird without it.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

But anyways I dont really like like the idea. But ppl that know me probably know that I dont like that whole idea of l-canceling altogether...

Smash doesn't get deeper with this... it just makes the game look more like DDR

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on SWF. What the hell are you even talking about? Of all the advanced techniques, I would have thought L-Cancelling to be the most logically accepted, since in every fighting game (hell, all martial arts as well), diminishing lag is key to winning. The overall irrationality of your dislike of L-Cancelling only leads me to believe you can't perform it well.

On-topic: The idea seems good, but really, I'm indifferent either way. I would enjoy it I guess.

 

[BigRick]

This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen on SWF. What the hell are you even talking about? Of all the advanced techniques, I would have thought L-Cancelling to be the most logically accepted, since in every fighting game (hell, all martial arts as well), diminishing lag is key to winning. The overall irrationality of your dislike of L-Cancelling only leads me to believe you can't perform it well.

On-topic: The idea seems good, but really, I'm indifferent either way. I would enjoy it I guess.

^^And here we have one of the dumbest readers on SWF. Please read the arguments that has been said against l-canceling before jumping to conclusions. Thank you.

 

[Mr.GAW]

ecstatic, should we automatically tech, too? Should we automatically DI? Should we automatically chainthrow? NO.

There's always the chance that you could mess up, and if you don't, you get the advantage because you are more skilled than your opponent.

Anyways, I like this idea.

 

[BigRick]

ecstatic, should we automatically tech, too? Should we automatically DI? Should we automatically chainthrow? NO.

There's always the chance that you could mess up, and if you don't, you get the advantage because you are more skilled than your opponent.

Anyways, I like this idea.

It seems that you didn't really understand the argument. First of all, L-canceling is very different than teching, DI and chaingrabbing.

- Teching doesn't apply here because in some cases it is better to NOT tech. Sometimes not teching will throw off your opponent's tech chasing momentum so you will have an easier time escaping.

- DI also has nothing to do with this because you can DI in multiple ways. You can also choose to not DI at all.

- I don't even know why you bring CGing into this... you should yourself realize that it is a very different thing than L-canceling.

Then you say that you are more skilled than your opponent if he misses L-cancels and you don't... Seeing this just shows the true issue at hand: what skills should be valued in Brawl?

L-canceling IMO has little value to me because:
1) you don't need to be smart to use it. (it is always the best thing to do!)
2) A Missed l-cancel is like the easiest mistake to see and punish in the game

Personally I think that L-cancels is just a technical hurdle that only separates the beginner from the intermediate level of player. In Melee, it is important to have a good L-canceling skill because without it, you cannot use some deeper skills, like comboing (which requires you to follow DI, to choose the right move, etc.). I DO have a problem with that, because comboing should be more valued than L-canceling.

I bet now many will think something like: ''heh, I bet this n00b can't L-cancel''. Don't even go there, cause my answer to you all will be simple: I play Peach.

L-canceling have less relevance into higher level matches because:
1)the players will rarely miss a l-cancel
2)players find ALOT of other mistakes to punish (and those are usually mental)

Anyways, a better game IMO would be one that destroys the gap between the newbie and the intermediate, and that has a big gap between the intermediate and the advanced.

Easy to pick up, hard to master.

But at the end, I guess it's an opinion thing. If you truely feel that pressing the L button at the right time is one of the most important thing to learn in order to be good in Brawl then it's your right I guess. Personally I find no fun in destroying sum1 just because I can shieldgrab him all day.

 

[Mr.GAW]

It's really just a matter of opinion like you said.

If you think that people who learn how to use something effectivley against an opponent should be able to get an advantage, then the L-cancel should stay.

If you think that it's pointless to have something that should ALWAYS be done, regardless of whether people have to learn about it, you should chuck it.

I definetly see your side of the arguement. I just feel that if people take the time to learn how to do something, they should be able to reap benefits, regardless of what the thing is.

 

[BigRick]

Yep, that's why I don't really argue about it anymore... this matter has already been discussed in many threads already.

In my first post, I just clarified the OP's idea. Yea, I admit I slipped a lil bit of my opinion in there... but I really don't like the way I've been flamed after that

 

[greenblob]

Well, as of right now, Smash is very untechnical--so much so that it could be twice as technical and still be the least technical competitive fighting game out there. Technicality is there for one thing--make people work to attain a certain level. At this point, more technicality couldn't hurt.