IDEA!! Expose to Nintendo what a real smash game is

[Fox Hater]

Hello Melee lovers I have an idea, last week we united to let Nintendo know that we liked melee, a big community supported their best fighting game there is, and we were not happy with the stream ban for evo.

Many went to the nintendo of america twitter and FB account and to let them know how we fealt.

I think that given melee was so much hype and already a vid of the grand finals exist in IGN, we should post in nintendo twitter, FB account. On reggie and sakurai twitter, let all know what we really want in a smash game

SF didnt grow just like that or because capcom wanted it. The community tried at the begging to communicate with the company at different game expos and little by little they were heard.

I think now with melee being stream on a main stream audicience this is our chance!!

What do you guys think, two times already we have shown as a community that when we join forces we can achieve anything

 

[Bones0]

What I really want in a Smash game is already in Melee, so I'd rather just keep playing that.
#12moreyears

 

[BarlessPianist]

The problem is, Nintendo does *not* like it's competitive community. They don't like the idea of their games being played competitively, and develop them with casual players in mind. Capcom was open to the idea of competitive fighting games, and they even sponsor several tournies that host their games. Meanwhile, Nintendo had to be begged to even let their game be hosted at a tournament. It's not that they don't care about us, it's that- to a degree- they don't even like us.

 

[Kimimaru]

It's not really Nintendo as a whole that doesn't like Super Smash Bros. being a competitive fighting game series, it's Sakurai.

 

[BarlessPianist]

It's not really Nintendo as a whole that doesn't like Super Smash Bros. being a competitive fighting game series, it's Sakurai.

But since he has more say in what Smash will be like...

In any case, he's already stated that he'll never make a game like melee again simply on the grounds that melee was so hard to make that it nearly ruined his life. I can't find a source for where he made that statement, but if someone would like to find it, I'd appreciate it.

 

[-Ran]

Not true Kimi. He designed Melee to be competitive, and decided to make Brawl an introduction to the series with a new console [the Wii.] Now the next game is attempting to find a balance between the two.

 

[Fox Hater]

Im not saying i want melee 2.0
Cause I dont

In SF for example, the highest technical game was 3rd strike
SFIV is between SF II and SF III
But it took stuff that people like from third strike and implemented something similar in SF IV

For example, ex moves, instead of parry we got focus attack etc etc

I thinks its a pretty good idea to approach as a community to let them know what we like from melee and hopefully we could see some of these features make their way in a similar form in the new SSB4

Sakurai already stated this game would be more competitive than brawl, with melee now being main stream, sakuria acknowledge that dlc could work and that he in the past did not balanced the game and with a team like namco, this could actually work.

But the community has to unite again. Like we did in the past this year, how is this a bad idea?? What do we risk losing by doing this approach???

Competitive games are becoming main stream and im sure as a business move everyone wants a peace of the cake

 

[Kimimaru]

That's still mostly his responsibility. He's the creator of the series, and he decided to take it the casual route after Melee. I'm sure that if he wanted it to be a big competitive game, he would communicate with the competitive community in one way or another.

 

[BTmoney]

What I really want in a Smash game is already in Melee, so I'd rather just keep playing that.
#12moreyears

Hell no! Imagine if the next Smash was better than the holy grail.

It's very unlikely but who wouldn't want "Melee: But Better"
Melee is far from perfect.
Not Melee 2.0 but literally a better game?

edit:
That being said I'm playing Melee until the game dies, if ever, or until I get shamefully old. And until Smash 4 gets a PM equivalent. Lol.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Honestly, I've seen way too much life in this game at Evo today to give a **** about what Smash 4 will be like.

Sakurai seems to still think that Melee-like depth isn't the way to go and at best he'll try to make an "in-between" or Brawl and Melee, and middle ground will obviously satisfy everyone right? While this is all fine and dandy and better than Brawl I have no reason to play Smash 4 if it's any less than what I'm playing now, maybe I'll visit in 12 more years if Melee dies down and it's decent but honestly I'll probably be already playing Project M and/or Air Dash Online by then.

 

[Bones0]

Hell no! Imagine if the next Smash was better than the holy grail.

It's very unlikely but who wouldn't want "Melee: But Better"
Melee is far from perfect.
Not Melee 2.0 but literally a better game?

edit:
That being said I'm playing Melee until the game dies, if ever, or until I get shamefully old. And until Smash 4 gets a PM equivalent. Lol.

Sakurai is intentionally making the game worse than Melee competitively. He just isn't taking it as far as barlw to the extent that combos are totally removed and characters randomly fall over. There's still tons of elements that make Melee amazing that will not be replicated in any way in Smash 4. People keep acting like each Smash game's competitive value was all sort of random or anything. It's quite clear that the original defined the series, Melee expanded on that concept with great complexity and depth, barlw nerfed it for the noobs, and Smash 4 will be a more polished nerf made for noobs. It's going to feel and work a bit better than barlw, but at the end of the day it won't be Melee or anything near as incredible, so why bother with it? I feel kind of bad for the traditional FGC because (keeping in mind I barely know anything about other fighters), they all seem to unanimously agree the old games were better, but they continue playing the new games because they are the ones with support. Nintendo's utter lack of support may require more of the community, but at least when a new game comes out we can avoid getting ****ed in the ass with mediocrity and continue to play our favorite game.

I don't want to preemptively hate on Smash 4 so that it's another barlw vendetta. I really don't. I'm going to try to support any Smash 4 players and tournaments that will inevitably be run alongside Melee if for no other reason than it will make it that much more encouraging for them to switch to Melee. But I also think it's important to keep Melee's sequels in their place. They are not on Melee's level, and I think that is a message worth driving home to Smash players and non-Smashers alike.

 

[BTmoney]

This is such a complex issue honesty. I typed out about 15 different posts and erased them all so yeah lol.

edit:

But I am for trying.

 

[Sashimi]

In response to those saying that Sakurai hates competitive gaming:

I recently read an interview in which Sakurai stated that he respects the way the competitive community plays smash. However, he doesn't want to make another melee, or even a "melee but better", and I doubt any amount of complaining on our part would change his mind.

Here's what he had to say about competitive play:

"Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?​

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people."​

And, more significantly:

"But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II"​

Smash 4 is not going to be Melee 2.0.
Smash 4 is not going to be Brawl 2.0.
Smash 4 will be Smash 4, and that's fantastic.

In response to OP:

After Nintendo's decision to prevent EVO from streaming Melee, and our community's reaction to that decision, I really don't think that flooding Nintendo with emails, tweets and other forms of spam will help us in any way. They changed their minds in just a few hours, when they could have easily waited, or even just ignored us (and we really aren't numerous enough to hurt their sales if they do ignore us). We should be thankful for that. Starting another internet riot now is just going to make us look like spoiled kids, ready to throw a temper tantrum whenever we want something. If anyone at Nintendo watched EVO (and I hope they did, after all the crying), they might have understood what we love about melee. Flooding them with more angry emails will only do one thing: convince them to not make overly-competitive games.

Also, assuming that our petition, tweets and emails even did anything to influence their decision at all (and I'm not 100% convinced that we were the ones who changed their minds): if it worked, it was only because our message was easy to get across. It's hard to misunderstand something like #meleestream4evo or #freemelee. How exactly would we go about telling them that we want the game to be competitive? And how do we know they'd give us the kind of competitive play we want? How do we know what kind of competitive play we want? Players on this board can't even agree on what makes melee good or bad. There has yet to be consensus on whether L-cancelling is a good or bad feature, for example. If you just yell at Nintendo until they make an extremely complicated game, you still can't guarantee that you'll like the game they make.

 

[Bones0]

Also, assuming that our petition, tweets and emails even did anything to influence their decision at all (and I'm not 100% convinced that we were the ones who changed their minds): if it worked, it was only because our message was easy to get across.

Yes, the uproar was indeed the reason Nintendo allowed the stream. They originally were going to shut down the entire tournament, but the Evo staff convinced them to run the tournament and simply get rid of the stream. Mr. Wizard confirmed all of this on some Twitch.tv interview.

 

[trash?]

The one important thing about getting nintendo to understand this is that, if nintendo keeps this in mind and intentionally creates a smash 4 scene with its game, the scene will be towering over this one. If you want smash to get huge (something I'm 100% down for), that's a great plan.

If you want it just because you want another melee, like bones said, you got melee. Hell, you even got a melee 2.0 already in Project M, if balance if a thing you care about. If this is happening, it's because we, as a collective community, want competitive smash to blow up in popularity.

 

[Kadano]

Hell, you even got a melee 2.0 already in Project M, if balance if a thing you care about.

Project M is not Melee 2.0.

@Thread: What I would really like is a Melee re-release for Wii U. It would be great for recording and that Pro Controller looks like it might be as good or even better than the GCC.

 

[Revven]

The best thing to do for everyone is the following:

Re-release Melee on the Wii U in HD as a VC/downloadable game with a rebalanced cast of characters but keep the gameplay intact. Similar to what Capcom does with Street Fighter 4 and then add in three-five new characters that weren't in Melee (such as Wolf). And of course, keep Smash 4, too.


But that ain't happening. So the best bet is Gamecube Virtual Console without the above changes to keep the competitive scene alive once the Wii U has established itself (which currently it is failing really hard). Honestly, I would get loud about this at the very least IF they announce Gamecube VC ever. But at the rate Nintendo is going with getting the Nintendo 64 VC on Wii U... I wouldn't get too hopeful about Gamecube VC for years.

We're not going to sway Sakurai's vision/design choices for Smash 4 at this point, I'm afraid.

 

[Massive]

Keep in mind that neither Nintendo nor Sakurai has any incentive to do anything with the existing melee game financially.
Brawl was an inordinately high-selling game. It sold more copies at release than melee did for many years. From their perspective(s), brawl is a more successful game than melee. It sold substantially faster and better, meaning it was a more compelling product to more people (which is exactly what they want).

Nobody should rely on or expect Nintendo to make the holy grail of smash games. Melee was a fluke built on the groundwork set by Smash 64. This new smash title will likely be a bit better (in many ways) than brawl from our perspective, but the visible, constant attempts to woo to casual players as well as the rubber banding placed into almost all recent Nintendo games does not bode well for it.

Nintendo will not make the holy grail of smash. They will make other great games, but they have (visibly) refused to continue producing this type of technical platform fighter. I also worry that they may very well attempt kill melee by cease and desisting our streams in the future like they did with EVO. I have this ugly feeling that they only backed down because the breast cancer drive turned it into a PR nightmare for them.

 

[ShrieK1295]

Keep in mind that neither Nintendo nor Sakurai has any incentive to do anything with the existing melee game financially.
Brawl was an inordinately high-selling game. It sold more copies at release than melee did for many years. From their perspective(s), brawl is a more successful game than melee. It sold substantially faster and better, meaning it was a more compelling product to more people (which is exactly what they want).

Nobody should rely on or expect Nintendo to make the holy grail of smash games. Melee was a fluke built on the groundwork set by Smash 64. This new smash title will likely be a bit better (in many ways) than brawl from our perspective, but the visible, constant attempts to woo to casual players as well as the rubber banding placed into almost all recent Nintendo games does not bode well for it.

Nintendo will not make the holy grail of smash. They will make other great games, but they have (visibly) refused to continue producing this type of technical platform fighter. I also worry that they may very well attempt kill melee by cease and desisting our streams in the future like they did with EVO. I have this ugly feeling that they only backed down because the breast cancer drive turned it into a PR nightmare for them.

I don't know if this is correct. Per console sold, Melee sold a crap ton more copies. Wii sold something like 100 million units and Brawl sold 12 million copies. Gamecube sold about 22 million units and 7 million copies of Melee. Which one is actually more successful..?

 

[Captain Smuckers]

I also think it's worth mentioning that brawl's success was at least somewhat based off of its predecessor. People liked playing melee a lot, so they bought the sequel.

 

[Kadano]

I don't know if this is correct. Per console sold, Melee sold a crap ton more copies. Wii sold something like 100 million units and Brawl sold 12 million copies. Gamecube sold about 22 million units and 7 million copies of Melee. Which one is actually more successful..?

The one that made Nintendo more $€¥.
I don’t blame them. They are a company and thus slaves to money. They can’t afford to care about people and true quality.

 

[ShrieK1295]

The one that made Nintendo more $€¥.
I don’t blame them. They are a company and thus slaves to money. They can’t afford to care about people and true quality.

Which one made them more money? Melee was a universally loved game that helped build the series and sustain the Nintendo brand. I think Mario Bros. made Nintendo more money than Super Mario Galaxy because there would be no Super Mario Galaxy without Mario Bros.

Also, the film industry largely considered the video game Goldeneye to be a much bigger success than the film. The movie made a profit of ~350,000,000 dollars with an investment of ~50,000,000 dollars. I don't remember the exact numbers for the game, but it cost less than 2 million to develop, and made a crap ton of money for that investment, having a return rate of at least 3 times more than the movie. The success of Goldeneye spawned a bunch of crap like that Star Wars pod racing crap for Gamecube.

 

[ant-d]

Just email Sakurai this link, for gawd's sake:

 

[TerryJ]

Just email Sakurai this link, for gawd's sake:

I waaaant that code! May I please have it?

 

[Fox Hater]

I dont get it, there is a dude that mentiones something about riots and stuff... where in my post did I said that??
Some one else asked me if I wanted melee 2.0?? when I said I dont want one I love melee.

But I feel and many of you also think that Smash 4 could be a great/better game if it was made as a competitive fighert. I think with a game that had 100+K viewers during the melee finals at evo, nintendo cant really say anymore that competitive scene its a small group, it will continue to grow if they support it.

So why no take advantage of this situation to let them know what we like of this great game, make an approach and who knows, maybe this time they'll listen, no matter what Nintendo seems more open to this discussions than in the past. We wont get a Melee 2.0 which I dont want, but we could get a great game that stand out on its own, being competitive and with the fundamentals that we love from melee.

I personally would like to read an interview of sakurai or reggie from SRK or kotaku or whatever it is asking them their thoughts about Melee @ evo, reaching and breaking world record in viewers etc etc.

Anyway hope Melee never dies, and hope we get a great new game and nintendo becomes open to their competitive community

Even James Chen was saying that it would be a great idea to post to nintendo at their tweeter acc about what a great game melee is and stuff about evo etc etc

 

[commonyoshi]

But since he has more say in what Smash will be like...

In any case, he's already stated that he'll never make a game like melee again simply on the grounds that melee was so hard to make that it nearly ruined his life. I can't find a source for where he made that statement, but if someone would like to find it, I'd appreciate it.

Melee was a complete accident that turned out well. I call bs if Sakurai says he intended drill shine wavedash upsmash to be a combo. It just happened to work that way.

Nintendo has lost all business sense. Sakurai blatantly ignores evidence that people like competitive smash and chooses to believe there is a silent majority who just want it to be casual. Nintendo's like the M Night Shyamalan of video game companies. Their public approval is just going lower and lower, and they'll stick to their dumb ideas.

And Nintendo is hella stupid for not knowing how to get more money off of competitive smash.