Ice Beam Charge Shot?+ Any Buffs you think Samus needs

[Narpas_sword]

Dtilt... uhh faster... covers futher under stage... and guarenteed knockback that pretty much seals every edgeguard vs marth... yeah don't use at all... wut? How did you ever get to become a moderator narpas.... really tho

dangling your ftilt is more beneficial if they are at high percent and you know it will get a kill.

Ice dtilt is better after you know they have exhausted most to all of their movement options and wouldnt normally be at a kill percent, because this way they won't be able to get back to stage even if they try to force their way on... hope that clarifies for you

iDtilt has more active frames than ftilt, and it's larger. But I still wouldn't call it godlike.
The actual KB frames, (not the useless ones that do nothing) don't come out till frame 10 iirc. So it's certainly not faster. This is from memory though, as I don't have a setup near me to check debug. I'd be happy to listen to any counterpoints. Ice mode is something I neglect to use other than in friendlies, I just haven't found enough use for it yet.

As for hitting below, neither ftilt or dtilt hit far enough below the edge to hit a someone sweetspotting reliably. better to just take edge.

it has some niche uses as you said. but nothing to write home about.

//Edit, made a bit of a mistake, totally forgot the 3.6 ice dtilt hits the hard bit first then the useless bit is the lingering hits.
minds all muddled from version control =p

so i guess it is faster then.

 

[Chevy]

Technically the start up is identical, but Samus' foot on f-tilt doesnt actually extend until frame 7, vs. frame 6 d-tilt. The hitbox on d-tilt is also slightly larger and lingers for 4 frames rather than 2. The angle is also a bit worse. So yeah, it's better at punishing non-sweetspots, doesn't make it a great move overall but it has like one and a half uses. F-smash is and always has been the real tragedy.

 

[bubbaking]

I think if ice usmash were just a little faster (maybe frame 8 or 9 as opposed to 12), that would go a long way towards making ice mode more worth it and would even make up for the crappy fsmash.

One thing I do find kinda interesting is that, if the frame data thread is to be believed, at its lowest point ice fair is safer than fire fair. Fire fair is apparently now -3 on block (even though it's -1 in Melee). That being said, it's still way safer to do fire fair from the ledge and early fire fair is also still safer.

 

[Litt]

iDtilt has more active frames than ftilt, and it's larger. But I still wouldn't call it godlike.
The actual KB frames, (not the useless ones that do nothing) don't come out till frame 10 iirc. So it's certainly not faster. This is from memory though, as I don't have a setup near me to check debug. I'd be happy to listen to any counterpoints. Ice mode is something I neglect to use other than in friendlies, I just haven't found enough use for it yet.

As for hitting below, neither ftilt or dtilt hit far enough below the edge to hit a someone sweetspotting reliably. better to just take edge.

it has some niche uses as you said. but nothing to write home about.

//Edit, made a bit of a mistake, totally forgot the 3.6 ice dtilt hits the hard bit first then the useless bit is the lingering hits.
minds all muddled from version control =p

so i guess it is faster then.

Faster... stronger... more knockback... doesnt have upward knockback so godlike for edgeguarding characters like falcon and marth... literally the first half of the post you should have deleted and just said sorry you are right... godlike

I think if ice usmash were just a little faster (maybe frame 8 or 9 as opposed to 12), that would go a long way towards making ice mode more worth it and would even make up for the crappy fsmash.

One thing I do find kinda interesting is that, if the frame data thread is to be believed, at its lowest point ice fair is safer than fire fair. Fire fair is apparently now -3 on block (even though it's -1 in Melee). That being said, it's still way safer to do fire fair from the ledge and early fire fair is also still safer.

Just save ice up smash an an anti air and tech chase for plats, retreating shot hop ice fair out of retreating crawl is the way to go

 

[Narpas_sword]

Faster... stronger... more knockback... doesnt have upward knockback so godlike for edgeguarding characters like falcon and marth... literally the first half of the post you should have deleted and just said sorry you are right... godlike



Just save ice up smash an an anti air and tech chase for plats, retreating shot hop ice fair out of retreating crawl is the way to go

I tend not to delete my errors, i'm not afraid of being wrong and dont feel the need to hide my mistakes =)

Godlike for edgeguarding falcon though? he's potentially the easiest to edgeguard in the game. THough i still dont think it would hit low enough to catch him out of a sweetspot.
Are there many others youd think iDtilt is great for edgeguarding?

 

[Litt]

I tend not to delete my errors, i'm not afraid of being wrong and dont feel the need to hide my mistakes =)

Godlike for edgeguarding falcon though? he's potentially the easiest to edgeguard in the game. THough i still dont think it would hit low enough to catch him out of a sweetspot.
Are there many others youd think iDtilt is great for edgeguarding?

Just from conjecture: Ike, Dorf, Luigi, Peach, (Possibly DK), diddy into run off nair, Wolf to stop that annoying AF side b, Sopo, puff (to take away her jumps since it doesnt knock her up and she has hella hard time sweet spotting), possibly squirt depending which wins out his up b or dtilt, Zard trying to up b after exhauting the 3 jumps, Samus herself after tether option is taken (mix up between dtilt and just grab ledge), ROB, and Sonic

Also clearly you have never played a decent enough falcon

 

[Narpas_sword]

Can you please stick to discussion without having to throw in an attempt at an insult?

It's strange that you choose to say that I've obviously not played a good falcon if I find him one of the easiest to edge guard, but then list a whole lot of characters that idtilt works on. A lot in those list have better recovery options than falcon.

It's certainly something I'll try more though, I guess I avoid it out of fear of being stuck in ice when I don't want to if they make it back. Preferring instead to drop into a Nair, or grab edge.

 

[Litt]

Can you please stick to discussion without having to throw in an attempt at an insult?

It's strange that you choose to say that I've obviously not played a good falcon if I find him one of the easiest to edge guard, but then list a whole lot of characters that idtilt works on. A lot in those list have better recovery options than falcon.

It's certainly something I'll try more though, I guess I avoid it out of fear of being stuck in ice when I don't want to if they make it back. Preferring instead to drop into a Nair, or grab edge.

Bruh you dont need to be in ice to use this... you can ledge cancel ice beam taunt change directly into dtilt. I think you under estimate falcon's recovery from lack of experience against falcons that can properly utilize it and you give too much credit to the rest of the cast.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I didnt say I fear being in ice before having the oppourtunity to edge guard, nor that i couldnt change TO it fast enough.
I fear missing the dtilt, and not having time to taunt cancel to get back to fire.

you can think that all you like. just like i think you're underestimating all the rest of the cast, or eliminating other casts options in your head "good against zard when he's using up b and out of other options" and comparing that to falcons FULL options.

The total of ALL of falcons recovery options, are much worse than the total of many of those characters options.
If you're comparing zard to falcon, and you've eliminated all of zards options except upb, then consider the same for falcon.
If you're letting a falcon get back, who only has up b. then i really dont know what to think.

 

[bubbaking]

I do agree that one of the biggest reasons I consider not switching to ice is that I don't want to be stuck with it afterwards. For instance, off the ledge, ledgehop fire fair is a godly option. It's safe on block, does good damage, leads to combos, etc. Ledgehop ice fair, not so much. Fire also wracks up damage faster, and.......fsmash, lolz.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I was experimenting having taunt change modes on the fly at one point. but decided it would need far too much rebalancing. =/

Would be so cool (lolpuns) though

 

[Litt]

I was experimenting having taunt change modes on the fly at one point. but decided it would need far too much rebalancing. =/

Would be so cool (lolpuns) though

Nah just super wavedash into taunt, i just change all the taunts on D pad to side taunt so you just mash it mid super wavedash.

I didnt say I fear being in ice before having the oppourtunity to edge guard, nor that i couldnt change TO it fast enough.
I fear missing the dtilt, and not having time to taunt cancel to get back to fire.

you can think that all you like. just like i think you're underestimating all the rest of the cast, or eliminating other casts options in your head "good against zard when he's using up b and out of other options" and comparing that to falcons FULL options.

The total of ALL of falcons recovery options, are much worse than the total of many of those characters options.
If you're comparing zard to falcon, and you've eliminated all of zards options except upb, then consider the same for falcon.
If you're letting a falcon get back, who only has up b. then i really dont know what to think.

I am talking about total recovery and you are talking about exhausted recovery... two different things. Falco has the side b sweet spot and onto stage option, the up b ledge cancel, the normal up b sweet spot, the air dodge on, and countless mix ups inbetween. Zards movement is telegraphed AF and you just need a good read to exhaust most of his options, where as falcons speed and fall speed is unprecedented across most of the cast.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Zard trying to up b after exhauting the 3 jumps, Samus herself after tether option is taken

You were talking exhausted options, not me.

But once again, this is getting nowhere. you seem more interested in trying to make someone look wrong than actually discuss things. So we'll leave it there.

I'll try dtilt more if i find myself wanting to be in icemode, but I think for the most part i'll still just grab edge to cover sweet spots.

 

[Litt]

You were talking exhausted options, not me.

But once again, this is getting nowhere. you seem more interested in trying to make someone look wrong than actually discuss things. So we'll leave it there.

I'll try dtilt more if i find myself wanting to be in icemode, but I think for the most part i'll still just grab edge to cover sweet spots.

Try more retreating fairs in ice mode as well while antagonizing opponent with zair. Imo Ice mode is a wall you should be moving backwards, not forward. You want to make them come to the wall, you dont want to move the wall to them. And no i was talking about using ice dtilt when options are exhausted, but I was talking about falcons recovery in general for the move since it covers all his edge related options and forces him to go high.