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Ice Beam Charge Shot?+ Any Buffs you think Samus needs

Bash2King

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MetroidBash550
So i downloaded a PM Samus PSA that made her Charge shot have freeze effects... Can this be added to the game along with Ice Beam Dtilt buffs?
 

Jamble

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While it could, I really hope they don't do that. A freeze effect on charge beam would be both kind of annoying and impractical to use, and ice dtilt is really fine. It serves a different function than plasma dtilt and isn't as good overall, but its balance is pretty appropriate. It sends the opponent straight out, which can be useful as an extra edgeguarding tool, if much more situational.
 

Bash2King

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How Would it be Impractical if you dont mind me asking? and to Me Ice Dtilt is really meh ive tried edgegaurding with it and they just come right back and i get nothing from it besides a bit of extra damage i just want something to make it compare to and feel as useful as Plasma Dtilt
 

Jamble

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Ice dtilt is nowhere near as good as plasma, but that's not necessarily bad on a balance scale, since the forms both have different tradeoffs. And personally, I just don't see it being helpful because a charge shot landing is usually a stock. Trading a kill for a freeze seems like a really bad thing for ice. The charge beam having some difference or another wouldn't be a problem, but ice fsmash is a good example how ice form just trading for freeze effects won't really benefit it any. That being said, I haven't played around with any different mods with a freezing beam, so I honestly don't know for certain.

I actually kind of like ice dtilt though, I feel like it gets more crap than it actually deserves because it's the beloved plasma dtilt's polar opposite. Plasma sets up for combos, ice dtilt is designed to create distance.
 

Chevy

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You can create distance with d-smash though. Ice d-tilt is good at ledge on a high recovery if you aren't confident enough to up-tilt. But even then you can just low angle f-tilt and get mostly the same result. The only thing it has going for it is a little bit of disjointed range, but it's pretty much poopoo.
Ice f-smash isn't bad because of the freeze effect, it's bad because it has too much startup and the second hit comes out too late to ever link and the knockback on the freeze part is too high to actually get followups.
 
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Corigames

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Balancing issues for Samus:
Make her UpB do the first hitboxes in the air so that they don't clank. Seriously, clanking with my UpB is one of the most frustrating things to happen.
Make bomb hitboxes standard instead of transcendent or whatever-the-**** they are. Let me escape combos like I do in Melee with bombs, let me bomb shields like I do in Melee, and let me stop attacks like I do in Melee. There's no reason bombs should lack this utility.
Bomb canceled grapple animations. It's an amazing mixup on recovery in Melee where her Zair isn't even normally considered an offensive option, why take that out in the game where it is? It's not like she'll suddenly be OP if Zair can be canceled out of after having a 50+ frame set-up with a bomb before hand.
Her standing grab is significantly worse than her dash grab. Generally, dash grabs are bigger but take more time, but Samus' doesn't have the same trade-off. Her standing grab takes longer and reaches shorter, why would I ever want to use that over the dash grab?
Why can't I grapple out of a morphball bomb-jump animation? If I press Z out of a bomb jump, then I do an aerial attack instead of a tether which adds an unnecessary extra step to using a move just to avoid some crummy programming.
Make charge shots do more damage. It takes about 3 seconds to get a full CS, but nearly every character in the game has a move that can clank with it no problem. On top of that, you lose it if you get hit out of the shooting animation, the lesser ones do practically nothing, it's an energy move so magnets/buckets eat it up, it has ridiculous knockback which makes off stage shots practically suicidal, and it doesn't even do that much shield damage either. It's disgusting: either make the CS more powerful so it doesn't clank or change something about it to make it more worth it.

Ice dtilt and fsmash are complete garbage and need to be reworked from the ground up if the DT ever intends on the moves being used seriously.
 

Jamble

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You can create distance with d-smash though. Ice d-tilt is good at ledge on a high recovery if you aren't confident enough to up-tilt. But even then you can just low angle f-tilt and get mostly the same result. The only thing it has going for it is a little bit of disjointed range, but it's pretty much poopoo.
Ice f-smash isn't bad because of the freeze effect, it's bad because it has too much startup and the second hit comes out too late to ever link and the knockback on the freeze part is too high to actually get followups.
I know dsmash can create distance, but I still think that the straight horizontal trajectory of dtilt makes it at least a unique tool for creating difference in a slightly different way. I don't think it's necessarily a problem that other moves are better for a lot of situations, but if anything were done to it, I think actually tweaking the range to be a little longer might make it feel like it has a bit more place in her kit. I'm really not entirely confident on my view of dtilt as a whole, but I do find that it's unique enough that I end up using it, if not a ton.

And on fsmash, even if it did link properly and didn't have a 16 frame (I think is what you've said it was?) startup, the frozen status itself inherently is really, really bad on followups because they suffer reduced damage, only 1/4 knockback while frozen and can't be grabbed. Even sent at a distance that allows followups, a successful freeze would be really lacking in actually worthwhile ones outside of timing exactly when they thaw, which can change quite a bit depending on your opponent's button mashes.

But beyond any discussion about some of the specifics, I feel like losing charge shot's kill potential for something that'd probably be purposed as more of a setup move would be really frustrating for me as a Samus player that uses ice form a decent bit, and I'm definitely not willing to trade its kill potential for a freeze.
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
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Freezing people is hilarious and cool. The whole put someone in an iceblock meta is completely nonexistant because it's only ever comes up on GnW 8 hammer. I like the game of trying to figure approximately when they will pop out, while deciding how far to push your luck adding damage beforehand. There's some interesting decision making, plus the idea of intercepting a spacie recovery with it is fantastic.

Ice Charge shot is cool in concept, but it would have to mostly be a buff to little shots, but that just kinda leads down an extra jank path. Plus we don't have a fire charge shot now so it would break parity a bit.
 

Bash2King

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Hey i made it active again kinda... Heres the PSA i said i found http://www100.zippyshare.com/v/zrx3quy5/file.html also this is a little nitpick on my part but why cant any form of Screw Attack kill when its the epitome of kill in Metroid? and also i try and use Ice Beam a lot and the Dtilt just feels completely inferior to the Plasma one the others all can compete with their Plasma counterparts but Dtilt is worse in every way except maybe shield damage

EDIT: The Beam Still Kills :D
 
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Jamble

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One idea that might be cool if you had to incorporate freezing into the beam, it could ice block and send the opponent straight up opposed to a plasma beam's horizontal. It could be used to mess with recoveries, but not completely shutting them down thanks to the vertical trajectory of knockback, and the ability to break out of it. Could lead to some interesting guessing games there too, like you were talking about as far as edgeguarding a frozen opponent that's knocked upward offstage, opponent has to decide how fast to button mash, etc.
It would also preserve it as a finisher/kill move, except it would kill off the top on stage. That's a change that would actually be pretty cool to me.
 
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Narpas_sword

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Ikr but its so pretty :D I'll stop then... for now
You're obviously doing it manually, because i can see it.

You can enable colours in your profile so all your posts are made that colour.
That also means that people like me can check the 'make everyones posts display as default' in our own settings.

If i was to change samus, id leave Fire mode as is and only focus on Ice mode.

Would probably leave Fair, and tweak Usmash a little.
Not sure what id do with Fsmash.
And i'd make Dtilt trip.

Because firing ice at the ground should do that.
 
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Bash2King

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Thanks Narpas i didnt know about that maybe you could make Ice FSmash first hit deal no knockback but still deal the same damage and the last hit deal all the knockback? id love that ice Dtilt buff it sounds fun Another Question can we get Power Bombs as a smash input for Down B again not needed just a thought
 

jackal27

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You're obviously doing it manually, because i can see it.

You can enable colours in your profile so all your posts are made that colour.
That also means that people like me can check the 'make everyones posts display as default' in our own settings.

If i was to change samus, id leave Fire mode as is and only focus on Ice mode.

Would probably leave Fair, and tweak Usmash a little.
Not sure what id do with Fsmash.
And i'd make Dtilt trip.

Because firing ice at the ground should do that.
This is my dream since Ice Sam is on of my mains.
 

Narpas_sword

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Thanks Narpas i didnt know about that maybe you could make Ice FSmash first hit deal no knockback but still deal the same damage and the last hit deal all the knockback? id love that ice Dtilt buff it sounds fun Another Question can we get Power Bombs as a smash input for Down B again not needed just a thought
No you can't have powerbombs lol. Or shinespark or space jump or diffusion missiles.

Having a move where the fist punches out and does no kb makes no sense. I've tried it it looks stupid lol.
 

Bash2King

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No you can't have powerbombs lol. Or shinespark or space jump or diffusion missiles.

Having a move where the fist punches out and does no kb makes no sense. I've tried it it looks stupid lol.
Tears idk how they can fix Ice FSmash then rn its just a frame trap
 
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Chevy

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Nerf f-air range, make Samus' cannon invulnerable during up-smash to prevent stupid looking trades, d-tilt trip is cool. F-smash just needs the second hit to come out a bit sooner so that it links past like 20% ever. Also the knockback on the second hit should be reduced to allow follow-ups ever.
 

Jamble

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Wait, why nerf fair's range? It's got pretty great range, but I don't see how it's game breaking by any means.
 

Bash2King

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Nerf f-air range, make Samus' cannon invulnerable during up-smash to prevent stupid looking trades, d-tilt trip is cool. F-smash just needs the second hit to come out a bit sooner so that it links past like 20% ever. Also the knockback on the second hit should be reduced to allow follow-ups ever.
Yeah why Nerf Fair its fine
 

Chevy

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F-air is just very very good. It's not overpowered by itself but the sheer range, low startup, and coverage are insane. It is the sole reason to switch to ice mode. The fact that it's worth sacrificing your best kill move and your best combo move to have seems to present an obvious imbalance to me.
 

Bash2King

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F-air is just very very good. It's not overpowered by itself but the sheer range, low startup, and coverage are insane. It is the sole reason to switch to ice mode. The fact that it's worth sacrificing your best kill move and your best combo move to have seems to present an obvious imbalance to me.
But it seems to have high endlag i dont think it needs a nerf
 

Chevy

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Your going to be land cancelling it most of the time on stage for a whopping 7 frames of lag. In the air you should only really be using it as an intercept where it's hard to miss because of the aforementioned massive range and short startup, in which case the endlag isn't that important because it's not really a combo tool.
 

Bash2King

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Your going to be land cancelling it most of the time on stage for a whopping 7 frames of lag. In the air you should only really be using it as an intercept where it's hard to miss because of the aforementioned massive range and short startup, in which case the endlag isn't that important because it's not really a combo tool.
True...
 

pooch182

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What if, instead of there being no knockback on first hit of fsmash, it just hit opponents *down*? Like you get a weak meteor for a ground bounce into the second hit, idk. I guess it's not a good look if the opponent can tech the hit, but I feel like if you could just make it untechable, it would be a neat workaround. Perhaps making it untechable would make it too janky as like an edge guard, but you can meteor cancel it, anyway.

As far as Cori suggesting the buffing of charge shot, I don't really see why it needs to be stronger. It's an ever present, lingering kill move that we can hang on to for as long as we want. Sure, you get some dumb **** like sweet spot knee or Ganon fair tying with the move and canceling it out, but honestly, that just means you shot it at a bad time. 25% is a lot of damage, and there are confirms that lead to charge shot on like every ****ing character in the game. Don't touch charge shot, it's fine.

As for ice mode, I think it's incredibly poorly designed. I want UpSmash to have disjoint/intangibility to prevent stupid trades, like Chevy mentioned before, but I also think that the sweetspot should be moved to be in the middle of the arc instead of at the start of the uppercut. Ice mode as a whole seems like it's designed around fishing way more than fire mode is. It's great for reading jumps or sniping sloppy approaches, and it should be tailored better to suit that. Forward air is just absolutely atrocious when you look at the end lag on it, now. Why can't we have a happy medium between 3.02 and where we are, currently? Drop zone fair isn't even like an option on a lot of stages because Samus just ****ing plummets. Down tilt should be redesigned and re-purposed because right now it does the job that DAFT or UpTilt do, but it does it worse. The whole idea of it tripping is neat, and I would love to see where we could go from there with that change.

Samus is in a pretty good spot as far as fire goes. If we were to see a serious redesign of ice mode, I would expect to see fire toned down a tad, like lowering damage on forward air or making the last hitbox of upsmash be a bit weaker. In my perfect world, fire mode can complement ice mode in several match ups, and Samus switches beams earlier in the taunt animation to make for more fluid transitions that could lead to ****ing dope combos. That won't happen, though, so I'm pretty happy with what we've got right now.
 

Bash2King

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What if, instead of there being no knockback on first hit of fsmash, it just hit opponents *down*? Like you get a weak meteor for a ground bounce into the second hit, idk. I guess it's not a good look if the opponent can tech the hit, but I feel like if you could just make it untechable, it would be a neat workaround. Perhaps making it untechable would make it too janky as like an edge guard, but you can meteor cancel it, anyway.

As far as Cori suggesting the buffing of charge shot, I don't really see why it needs to be stronger. It's an ever present, lingering kill move that we can hang on to for as long as we want. Sure, you get some dumb **** like sweet spot knee or Ganon fair tying with the move and canceling it out, but honestly, that just means you shot it at a bad time. 25% is a lot of damage, and there are confirms that lead to charge shot on like every ****ing character in the game. Don't touch charge shot, it's fine.

As for ice mode, I think it's incredibly poorly designed. I want UpSmash to have disjoint/intangibility to prevent stupid trades, like Chevy mentioned before, but I also think that the sweetspot should be moved to be in the middle of the arc instead of at the start of the uppercut. Ice mode as a whole seems like it's designed around fishing way more than fire mode is. It's great for reading jumps or sniping sloppy approaches, and it should be tailored better to suit that. Forward air is just absolutely atrocious when you look at the end lag on it, now. Why can't we have a happy medium between 3.02 and where we are, currently? Drop zone fair isn't even like an option on a lot of stages because Samus just ****ing plummets. Down tilt should be redesigned and re-purposed because right now it does the job that DAFT or UpTilt do, but it does it worse. The whole idea of it tripping is neat, and I would love to see where we could go from there with that change.

Samus is in a pretty good spot as far as fire goes. If we were to see a serious redesign of ice mode, I would expect to see fire toned down a tad, like lowering damage on forward air or making the last hitbox of upsmash be a bit weaker. In my perfect world, fire mode can complement ice mode in several match ups, and Samus switches beams earlier in the taunt animation to make for more fluid transitions that could lead to ****ing dope combos. That won't happen, though, so I'm pretty happy with what we've got right now.
Whats DAFT? and i agree with everything you said
 

Tha_Shogun_12

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Well I can still wish I guess

What I always thought would make Ice mode more practical is greater knnockback growth on dtilt and have ice missiles knock towards Samus in opposition to away. this could set up for foward tilt and up smash ko's, her best two ice options and make ice more practical. forward smash while safer on block is just so slow compared to fire fsmash so i hardly have no reason to use it.

this is just a wishlist if then game ever updates due to nintendo actually being kind
 

Narpas_sword

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There's no way I'd have ice missiles pull on hit. Grapple would make sense, but missiles wouldn't.

I did have the second Hit of ice fsmash pull back with the gun, which was ok.

I had the first hit have the same hitbox as fire, albeit slower. The animation didn't make sense that it was weaker. Then the second hitbox froze and pulled back. It also did shield damage to discourage blocking a little.
 

Tha_Shogun_12

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Why not? It wouldn't have to be so much as taking them across the stage, but a pop up towards Samus in an angle. Like Ness PK Thunder at mid precents but actually good seeing as it's a cancel. I feel it would've made Ice Beams abilities alot more practical and give an extra shot at KO's.

Just a suggestion, well I guess it doesn't matter so much now lol.
 

Tha_Shogun_12

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Lol plenty of fighting games give weird angles on their abilities and Smash has never been an exceptoin to this.

Ness as previous mentioned
Dr. Mario's Uptilt knocking you up instead of out
Mario's FAir knocks you up

Trajectory on an ability as always been influenced in weird ways, but hey to each it's own. :)
 

Litt

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Is it really? You could just dangled ftilt for similar results or dsmash to go for the ledge spike.
nah, stays out longer, faster start up, farther knockback, psudo spike away if they come from under, whereas dsmash pops up
 

Litt

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i cant think of a reason to ice dtitl instead of ftilt or grab ledge.
Dtilt... uhh faster... covers futher under stage... and guarenteed knockback that pretty much seals every edgeguard vs marth... yeah don't use at all... wut? How did you ever get to become a moderator narpas.... really tho

dangling your ftilt is more beneficial if they are at high percent and you know it will get a kill.

Ice dtilt is better after you know they have exhausted most to all of their movement options and wouldnt normally be at a kill percent, because this way they won't be able to get back to stage even if they try to force their way on... hope that clarifies for you
 
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