I would pay so much money to nerf rolling

[Colin Steele]

Does anyone happen to have frame data on how many frames you get invincibility for? It seems like you could just roll, go have a beer, and then come back and roll again.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Everyone hates the system, no one can change it...

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'd suggest you to change the name of the thread, you have an actual a nice question there that can easily be ignored thanks to the title.

 

[dragontamer]

Does anyone happen to have frame data on how many frames you get invincibility for? It seems like you could just roll, go have a beer, and then come back and roll again.

Different on every character. But the period is definitely pretty big. The majority of characters can just down-smash opponents on reaction to rolls... so you've got pretty big holes in there IMO.

I play characters with slow, 18-frame down smashes like Pacman and Robin. Granted, these characters have a ton of active frames on the down smash, but opponents rarely roll past me without eating a smash to the face. If you've got breakdance Mario (IIRC, like 10 frame down smash), or other quicker down smashes... you really shouldn't have any issues.

I suggest you learn how to roll punish, it honestly isn't that hard in this game. Any meaty attack will have at least the "precision" of its active frames, and a ton of other games only have 1-frame holes in various dodge mechanics.

This game, its at least 5 to 10 frames, depending on the character. I know in Brawl it was over 11 frames for the typical vulnerability portion of rolls. Again, if you've got meaty attacks (Pac-Man's Down-smash has like 11 active frames for example, including the weak lingering hitbox), punishing rolls is kind of a cinch.

Also, Projectiles are great roll punishes. Thoron, Samus Blast, Megaman Charge Shot. Etc. etc.

Or you can roll punish like False does, and rocket-punch up-B sweetspot with Luigi like a boss.

 

[Pyr]

I'll take whatever you pay and multiply it by a million. That way, I can build a huge-ass school and teach people that rolls aren't that bad offline, and the offline is all that ever will matter. Failure to punish a read roll is your fault, not the game's fault or system's fault or a spammy roller's fault.

 

[Colin Steele]

I perfectly understand the concept and execution of roll punishing. The problem is a lot of characters don't have meaty down-smashes. I play Samus a lot and while it seems that you would be able to easily punish (and often you do, granted) it can be pretty tricky - especially considering how much lag there is on that thing. To be fair the charge shot is really hard to miss on a roll, it has such a good hitbox for rolls, I often time catch some one with it on accident, but you can't really use that reliably in neutral.

You say Brawl had longer invulnerability time than this game? I don't believe that for a second. I played that game a lot and was always able to punish a roll I read. In this game, that is not the case - in fact I'm constantly baffled by people rolling away from a grab I know I would have landed.

**** that ping was sexy. I think I'm cool for Wafting successfully, but that's a cheapass ping.

The more I play this game, the more I miss Brawl, which is so utterly ****ed. There's a lot of really great improvements, but then some decisions that are just like "what the ****?"

 

[Pyr]

I perfectly understand the concept and execution of roll punishing. The problem is a lot of characters don't have meaty down-smashes. I play Samus a lot and while it seems that you would be able to easily punish (and often you do, granted) it can be pretty tricky - especially considering how much lag there is on that thing. To be fair the charge shot is really hard to miss on a roll, it has such a good hitbox for rolls, I often time catch some one with it on accident, but you can't really use that reliably in neutral.

You say Brawl had longer invulnerability time than this game? I don't believe that for a second. I played that game a lot and was always able to punish a roll I read. In this game, that is not the case - in fact I'm constantly baffled by people rolling away from a grab I know I would have landed.

**** that ping was sexy. I think I'm cool for Wafting successfully, but that's a cheapass ping.

The more I play this game, the more I miss Brawl, which is so utterly ****ed. There's a lot of really great improvements, but then some decisions that are just like "what the ****?"

See bolded: You have no idea how to punish rolling if that's your first thought on how to do so. Sorry to say, but git gud and come back later. If you can predict a roll, you aren't Dsmashing unless it's going to combo into something or kill. I can't think of a single character that cannot effectively punish a roll in some way. Even the ones that don't have a "Meaty Down Smash."

Btw, a move being meaty doesn't mean **** when punishing a roll. A 1-active frame move is more then enough to hit the 10-12 vulnerable frames of a roll for most the cast (iirc). Please learn what a meaty move is and get back to us.

 

[LancerStaff]

Rolls don't need a nerf since they're finally a useable option for most of the cast. Brawl had like two characters with effective ones and Melee and 64 have a whopping zero.

 

[dragontamer]

I play Samus a lot and while it seems that you would be able to easily punish (and often you do, granted) it can be pretty tricky - especially considering how much lag there is on that thing.

Samus's down-smash has 9 startup frames, with the 2nd strike hitting on frame 17.

Pacman's down-smash is 18 frames of startup yo. Don't complain to me about a laggy down smash, the first strike of yours is literally twice as fast as mine, and the second strike is still faster.

 

[Colin Steele]

Sorry to say, but git gud and come back later.

Ah, and here we see the Smashboards troll-boy in his natural habitat, trying to start a fight with a pathetic meme insult.

If you were paying attention to the thread instead of trying to flame, you would see that that's a response to some one elses advice on how to punish rolls. Talk more **** when you're > 124 posts.

Samus's down-smash has 9 startup frames, with the 2nd strike hitting on frame 17.

Pacman's down-smash is 18 frames of startup yo. Don't complain to me about a laggy down smash, the first strike of yours is literally twice as fast as mine, and the second strike is still faster.

By meaty I mean that it doesn't really stick around. Yeah it comes out fast, but if I don't time it right (which again I'm not complaining about - that's just a misplay) then it doesn't connect. So it's fast and that's nice, but it doesn't feel like a god-tier down-smash to me.


My god, this site is so hostile, why is this community so... awful?

 

[dragontamer]

My god, this site is so hostile, why is this community so... awful?

I'm sorry, but in this context... rolling is a beginner's mistake. I need to ingrain into the audience that roll-punishing is a valuable skill, and is actually quite easy to do in the great scheme of things. Its more than just you on this public forum, the other beginner-level readers out there need to know about roll-punishing, and that decent opponents will punish your every roll. Its simply the truth of high-level play in this game.

I'm not even that good in the scheme of players. I've played opponents who can forward smash me out of rolls, predicting the crossup due to deep understanding of spacing. So I know I've personally still got a lot to learn about this game.

Nonetheless, I publicly acknowledge that I'm using your topic as a punching bag. But ultimately, I think you'll become a better player if I attacked your words in this manner.

 

[Colin Steele]

So then maybe you should give some advice, or link a thread or something? I haven't found anything in my search on the boards, and a google search of 'punishing rolls in smash 4' yields some very pathetic results... which kind of leads me to believe in fact it's not that easy.

I love it when people with so few posts talk down to me like they're these unimpeachable authorities. It's cool that you know the frame data, and I actually do appreciate you giving me those numbers, but don't treat me like I'm new to the game. I've played the series from the beginning, and I may not be the most hardcore of players, but I'm not a complete idiot. Rolling is good in this game, really good. I've heard a lot of people say it, streamers, players, commentators etc. It's not that outlandish that I'm complaining about it.

 

[Pyr]

Ah, and here we see the Smashboards troll-boy in his natural habitat, trying to start a fight with a pathetic meme insult.

If you were paying attention to the thread instead of trying to flame, you would see that that's a response to some one elses advice on how to punish rolls. Talk more **** when you're > 124 posts.



By meaty I mean that it doesn't really stick around. Yeah it comes out fast, but if I don't time it right (which again I'm not complaining about - that's just a misplay) then it doesn't connect. So it's fast and that's nice, but it doesn't feel like a god-tier down-smash to me.


My god, this site is so hostile, why is this community so... awful?

I was. I was responding directly to you and your statement in that post.

You are wrong. I am sorry. But you are wrong and your statement is wrong. I'm calling you out on it and I told you why.

Are you trolling? 155 posts is nothing, and post count has never been an indicator of the person behind the post, as your comments (I went through your profile) show.

So then maybe you should give some advice, or link a thread or something? I haven't found anything in my search on the boards, and a google search of 'punishing rolls in smash 4' yields some very pathetic results... which kind of leads me to believe in fact it's not that easy.

I love it when people with so few posts talk down to me like they're these unimpeachable authorities. It's cool that you know the frame data, and I actually do appreciate you giving me those numbers, but don't treat me like I'm new to the game. I've played the series from the beginning, and I may not be the most hardcore of players, but I'm not a complete idiot. Rolling is good in this game, really good. I've heard a lot of people say it, streamers, players, commentators etc. It's not that outlandish that I'm complaining about it.

There is literally a stickied thread on the top of this forum notating everything you need for smash. There is not going to really be a direct guide to punishing rolls. This is picked up with learning to read an action and game experience. Start there.

Post count doesn't matter. Thinking it does makes you a moron. If you can't punish a simple roll, you may have a decade of experience, but you're not good. Rolls are good. They aren't that good.

I wanna make a clarification edit: A lot of people are also bad at this game. No wonder you hear a lot of people say it. In 1 year, rolling will equal damage again.

That decade of experience? It wasn't good experience. Beating a roll takes reading it. If you can't read, you can't beat it, and thus make the original post I responded to. That post count? Meaningless. Just like your experience in this game, apparently, mister played since 64. It is that outlandish to complain about because no one worth their salt (huehue) will be complaining.

 

[dragontamer]

So then maybe you should give some advice, or link a thread or something? I haven't found anything in my search on the boards, and a google search of 'punishing rolls in smash 4' yields some very pathetic results... which kind of leads me to believe in fact it's not that easy.

1. Down smash them as they roll past you.

2. Practice. Nothing is easy the first time, but honestly, once you get the skill its pretty damn easy and consistent. You just gotta break through the first wall.

Rolling is good in this game, really good. I've heard a lot of people say it, streamers, players, commentators etc. It's not that outlandish that I'm complaining about it.

Count the number of rolls in this match. Good players don't roll in this game.

And there's a reason for it. Rolling is almost always not worth the risk. BTW: Those roll-like actions from the Lucario player are perfect pivots, not rolls. I count precisely one roll in the first match, from the Lucario player around 12 seconds. Beyond that, good players don't roll. Rolling is still a terrible option in this game.

I already showed you what happens when you roll too much in this game. Your opponents start doing crap like Luigi up-b rocket punches out of your rolls.

EDIT: Study False's Luigi game vs Marth is a case in why you shouldn't roll so much. From running-up smashes, to down-B on reaction to opponent rolls, you can see Luigi consistently getting "in" on the opponent because Marth is constantly spamming them rolls way too much.

By the minute mark, False switches up his Luigi game to roll-punishes, and dramatically begins to use down-B to punish Marth's constant retreating back-rolls. A few minutes later, he's up-b rocket punching rolls.

False's safest roll punish is a short-hop nair against the vulnerable portion of the roll. I personally have a preference for this against "retreating rolls" myself, but not everyone has Pacman's 3-frame NAIR with 11 active frames. :-p. Beyond that, I'd expect that most character's nairs would actually be useable in that regard, though Samus's would require a bit more timing.

Now lets contrast the two players. You can easily tell that False is the superior player. (Luigi probably _should_ have a disadvantage vs Marth honestly). Count the number of times that False rolls in the match. Notice how much harder it is to predict where False will be, his movement is more erratic, quicker, and safer.

And then recognize that False doesn't roll a single time in the first match, and has rolls in the low-single digits in the 2nd match. (less than 5).

 

[HYP3R]

Although a bit old, I remembered this guide while reading the OP. It's written by a tournament player and gives a good understanding of HOW to punish, but like all techniques is best used with practice/experience.
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-deal-with-a-rolling-opponent.375075/

 

[Big O]

Does anyone happen to have frame data on how many frames you get invincibility for? It seems like you could just roll, go have a beer, and then come back and roll again.

Rolls typically have somewhere around 50% invincibility with 10+ vulnerability frames at the end. Honestly, rolls aren't that much better than Brawl's. The only real difference is that the bad rolls aren't as glaringly bad, so the average roll is good now.

If everyone had Brawl Lucario's or MK rolls, then I could see why everyone's complaining. Spot dodging was way more OP in Brawl, so people never really spammed rolls. Since spot dodges have been nerfed (and rightly so), people have just flocked to the next best thing.

 

[dragontamer]

I love it when people with so few posts talk down to me like they're these unimpeachable authorities.

I'm a nobody with less than 150 posts and absolutely zero tournament experience in this game. No joke, no sarcasm. It is who I am and I admit it.

I'm a student of this forum, and these debates are generally carried out in self-interest. When I lose debates, I generally learn something new from the game, so I typically challenge people to these debates all the time.

So if you want to be treated like an equal, lets get an equal and fair debate between us going. Can you state your argument, why you think rolling is good in this game? Do you have any high-level tournament match where someone rolls their way to victory? I've stated my argument (as well as tournament matches)

Maybe you know something I don't know. Maybe a particular character's roll is in fact too good (I definitely don't have experience vs all characters yet). Lets debate so that we can discover and share what each other knows.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Imo shieldstun is a bigger problem than rolls are, but I don't think that rolls are a problem anyway.

 

[Empire~]

jesus guys no one wants to hear people uselessly bickering

grow up

 

[Kenith]

jesus guys no one wants to hear people uselessly bickering
grow up

Nobody wants to hear someone bickering about others bickering either.
So maybe you should contribute something to the conversation.

 

[Empire~]

Fair enough, but here's what I have to say:

I came to this thread looking for an interesting discussion about the mechanics of this game. Eventually, I was pretty disappointed when it devolved into an arguefest. While I don't want disagree with what I said earlier, I was pretty rash and the comment was NOT worth making.

But nevertheless, a number of interesting and useful points HAVE been made, and for that I'm grateful.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I'm sure you can pay less money for someone to teach you how to punish people who roll a lot.

 

[ChillySundance]

honestly I feel like air dodge invulnerability is a lot more problematic. the vulnerable window between spammed air dodges is just -tiny-

 

[HeroMystic]

Fair enough, but here's what I have to say:

I came to this thread looking for an interesting discussion about the mechanics of this game. Eventually, I was pretty disappointed when it devolved into an arguefest. While I don't want disagree with what I said earlier, I was pretty rash and the comment was NOT worth making.

But nevertheless, a number of interesting and useful points HAVE been made, and for that I'm grateful.

The title bait is not going to attract the people you are looking for in this thread. Also, threads like these have been made dozen of times. The ones who would seriously answer this no longer cares to explain it again.

But to give a basic rundown:

A roll is typically 30-35 frames.
A roll is invincible in the middle of it's animation.
A roll typically is vulnerable at the end of it's animation by 8 to 11 frames.

As Mario, I punish rollers a lot. Fireball to bait, D-air when they roll into me, combo all day. Punishing rolls is not hard for any character. You just need to have an attack fast enough (which is available to everyone), or have an attack with a lingering hitbox.

WiFI Johns aside, rolling is a terrible habit for any player and should be used sparingly. Shielding and spacing are far better options.

Go to this thread if you want to learn more.

EDIT: The only defensive option that anyone with competitive experience would say is "too strong" is (Power)shield. Rolling, airdodging, and spotdodging are good but situational defense options that are easy to punish when predicted or used poorly.

 

[dragontamer]

EDIT: The only defensive option that anyone with competitive experience would say is "too strong" is (Power)shield.

The key to "breaking" powershields is recognizing that you're getting read. If you slow down your attacks, you'll hit his shield and potentially break it.

Shield-stun in this game is IIRC much lower than in Brawl. However, the "minimum time" you keep a shield up is longer by 3 frames. Shaya states that all shields have a minimum of 14-frames of staying out, with a slight vulnerability period right when you drop the shield. All in all, you have 18-frames to wail on someone's shield.

Robin Elfire, Arc-Thunder, or Nosferatu. Lucario Force Palm. Running grabs, command grabs. There are also high-shield damaging moves like Marth's Shield Breaker and Jiggly's "Pound" (which also doubles as a good meaty attack to punish rolls)

To be fair though, you can mixup your OOS options to make shielding safer. But jumping doesn't escape grabs in this game, and that includes stuff like Lucario's Force Palm command-grab, which can KO from center-stage at 60% at high aura.

Beyond that, yes, Shielding is definitely the best defensive option in this game.

 

[HeroMystic]

All of that is true, which is why I don't agree with anyone that says powershield is too strong either, you just can't be reckless with your approaches, just like in any fighting game.

The reason why I highlight shielding is to state the irony that the strongest defensive option is the one that isn't being complained about from non-tourney players.

 

[dragontamer]

@ HeroMystic Fair enough. I can agree with you there.

 

[Big-Cat]

Learn your opponent's patterns while playing.

 

[Alaya]

I personally find that while my first instinct against a spammy roller is to try and quickly hit them before they can roll, actually if I stop and do nothing for a moment, the enemy will roll again and it becomes super easy to land a dash attack on them if they rolled backwards or a Fsmash/Dsmash on them if they rolled forward. That's a general trend I've noticed, not just with rolling, is that despite this being a somewhat fast paced game there is a large advantage for the player who takes a moment every few seconds to just suddenly stop their aggression and see what the enemy does.

Not only does the timing mixup throw off an enemy and possibly leave them open, but it gives you precious insight into the mind of the other player since you can see what HE thinks you were going to do without the risk of actually doing anything. Empty hops and backing out of a dash are also good tools for feinting at your opponant and seeing what their state of mind is like.