I wanna try Project M, but...

[9bit]

Well I meant future games being competitive is never going to happen. Sakurai has sadly learned from his "mistakes" and won`t let a "abomination" like Melee ever happen again.

Ah, well that's definitely true. Hopefully more and more Melee guys will see the appeal of Project M, because that's really the only game that will be continuing on Melee's legacy.

And you know, I really would have thought they would be more receptive to PM. A lot of them say they don't like the small differences, but it's way more like Melee than any official sequel will ever be. I like to think that when we were all anticipating Brawl coming out, we knew it would be an exact 1:1 clone of Melee with additional characters. Yet we still looked forward to it as an evolution of Melee. But now there's a game out that is incredibly close to Melee and they are still complaining about those tiny differences.

Ah, well. PM for future-of-Smash tier.

 

[Caryslan]

1) Sakurai has a irrational hatred for competitive games.
2) Brawl air dodge
3) No L-Canceling
4) It`s not being made from scratch, it`s most likely being made off of Brawl`s engine and they copy over returning characters 1:1 from brawl before making changes too them.
5) Why would Sakurai balance patch a game he doesn`t want to be competitive?

Good points, so I'll reply to each in order.

1. I'm not going to argue with this point, but several anti-competitive things like tripping are already gone. While I don't think it will be quite like Melee, at least Sakurai is listening to some of the complaints that people made about brawl

2. I know I'm in a small minority, but I liked Brawl's air dodge. With that said, we have seen little of the air dodge so far. It may not be 100% like Brawl's or could be a mix between Melee and Brawl's airdodge system. As an example, you can dodge a few times int he air, but you forfeit all other moves in exchange. The Brawl airdodge could also simply be a placeholder until the change the air dodge. We just don't know enough about that.

3. Has Sakurai said L-Canceling is not coming back? Unless he says it, we can't be sure at this point if its coming back or not. It could either not be programmed in yet, or the videos are simply not showing it off yet. Unless he says it is not coming back, its too early to know for sure.

4. I would assume the copied Melee's veterans the same way. It does save them time to copy a character, and make the changes. What I meant is that stages, modes, and other things that can't simply be ported from Brawl have to be built from scratch. Plus, even if they did copy the characters they have to adjust the veterans to the new engine. Sakurai has already said that the game is going for a middle road between the speed and gameplay of Brawl and Melee, so I would assume that there is either a new engine being used, or a really modified version of the Brawl one. Even if they copy characters, alot still has to be built from scratch.

5. We don't know that for sure. They do have Namco involved, so there might be patches. Again, nobody knows for sure. Maybe he will patch the game post release to fix bugs or other issues.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

2. I know I'm in a small minority, but I liked Brawl's air dodge. With that said, we have seen little of the air dodge so far. It may not be 100% like Brawl's or could be a mix between Melee and Brawl's airdodge system. As an example, you can dodge a few times int he air, but you forfeit all other moves in exchange. The Brawl airdodge could also simply be a placeholder until the change the air dodge. We just don't know enough about that.

I believe in his post he said it is Brawl`s air dodge without any mention of modification, but he didn`t say anything about it being final so you got me there.

3. Has Sakurai said L-Canceling is not coming back? Unless he says it, we can't be sure at this point if its coming back or not. It could either not be programmed in yet, or the videos are simply not showing it off yet. Unless he says it is not coming back, its too early to know for sure.

I believe he has stated that L-Canceling is not likely to come back, but the keyword here is not likely.

4. I would assume the copied Melee's veterans the same way. It does save them time to copy a character, and make the changes. What I meant is that stages, modes, and other things that can't simply be ported from Brawl have to be built from scratch. Plus, even if they did copy the characters they have to adjust the veterans to the new engine. Sakurai has already said that the game is going for a middle road between the speed and gameplay of Brawl and Melee, so I would assume that there is either a new engine being used, or a really modified version for the Brawl one. Even if they copy characters, alot still has to be built from scratch..

Look at the mod we`re talking about, they made the speed exactly like Melee`s and they are using the same engine. Sure it`s heavily modified, but it`s still the same engine.

I can`t really argue about points 1 and 5.

 

[Ginge]

You know what would make me happy for Smash 4? Getting more than just pictures of characters / starting to get a fleshed out move lists. I will say though, that the intro trailers that they have made (like Wii Fit Trainer's) have been quite enjoyable. They have me a lot more hyped than pics of characters.

Also, that boxing ring stage looks like a LOT of fun.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1) Sakurai has a irrational hatred for competitive games.
2) Brawl air dodge
3) No L-Canceling
4) It`s not being made from scratch, it`s most likely being made off of Brawl`s engine and they copy over returning characters 1:1 from brawl before making changes too them.
5) Why would Sakurai balance patch a game he doesn`t want to be competitive?

This is rather bad for a list, the only point that has some cred to it is the first but it's not that strong.

Sakurai didn't want a leader board that's the most I've seen of him hating on competitive play. Him not wanting to make the game really technical isn't ripping out competitive spirit, that depends on if the game can keep a player base, which unless they seriously drop the ball I doubt Smash 4 won't. I don't agree with him taking out wavedashing or making hitstun as low as it was but really I don't see him going hard body hate on competitive play.

2 & 3 are actually really bad points. Brawl's air dodge is really punishable and hardly a get out of jail free card, seriously go watch compedtive play or even casual play it's an option, but not as strong as people think it is. You do it a lot, people will catch on and punish you hard for it. L- Canceling is a terrible mechanic, it's a tech barrier with no depth or strategic applications, and this is why wave-dashing is much much better to keep than this.

Rest really depends on what the game comes out at, we have seen gameplay videos but only at a basic level. We also don't know in full how this will work outside of what looks like Brawl's semi shield but we don't know what that will entail for hit stun, shield stun and the like. Patches are a different can of worms, we know Nintendo can patch looking at Skyward Sword and Pokemon X & Y, what we don't know is if they will apply this for Smash or not. Sakurai only said he isn't sure on it, not that he can't.

Time will tell on those.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

This is rather bad for a list, the only point that has some cred to it is the first but it's not that strong.

Sakurai didn't want a leader board that's the most I've seen of him hating on competitive play. Him not wanting to make the game really technical isn't ripping out competitive spirit, that depends on if the game can keep a player base, which unless they seriously drop the ball I doubt Smash 4 won't. I don't agree with him taking out wavedashing or making hitstun as low as it was but really I don't see him going hard body hate on competitive play.

2 & 3 are actually really bad points. Brawl's air dodge is really punishable and hardly a get out of jail free card, seriously go watch compedtive play or even casual play it's an option, but not as strong as people think it is. You do it a lot, people will catch on and punish you hard for it. L- Canceling is a terrible mechanic, it's a tech barrier with no depth or strategic applications, and this is why wave-dashing is much much better to keep than this.

Rest really depends on what the game comes out at, we have seen gameplay videos but only at a basic level. We also don't know in full how this will work outside of what looks like Brawl's semi shield but we don't know what that will entail for hit stun, shield stun and the like. Patches are a different can of worms, we know Nintendo can patch looking at Skyward Sword and Pokemon X & Y, what we don't know is if they will apply this for Smash or not. Sakurai only said he isn't sure on it, not that he can't.

Time will tell on those.

Yes Brawl`s air dodge is punishable, but one of the reasons they changed the air dodge was to get rid of advanced techniques that require the Melee air dodge like (as you yourself mentioned) the Wavedash. Sure L-Canceling is just a pointless tech barrier, but would you rather have the ability to L-Cancel endlag or just put up with the endlag?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

With the air dodge and wavedashing, there is a middle ground in coding someone could do, but at this point I'm not expecting it to return in smash 4, not from what I've seen Sakurai say in blogs.

L canceling is a simple fix, make everyone's endlag what it would if they had Lcancelled instead of without. It's not a question of, they can't have it. They clearly can without needing to Lcancel. Just have them autocancel.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

With the air dodge and wavedashing, there is a middle ground in coding someone could do, but at this point I'm not expecting it to return in smash 4, not from what I've seen Sakurai say in blogs.

L canceling is a simple fix, make everyone's endlag what it would if they had Lcancelled instead of without. It's not a question of, they can't have it. They clearly can without needing to Lcancel. Just have them autocancel.

Yes, but do you really expect Sakurai to go "Hmmm, the competitive crowd that I have already expressed hate towards might not like this game. I better add in autol-cancel!"

 

[Saito]

Technically it would make the game faster, albeit less "technical".

I could see people being dangerously fast as fox since auto L cancels.

 

[210stuna]

We have Mewtwo & Roy

They have Megaman & Wii Fit Trainer

You make the right choice

 

[Chzrm3]

Technically it would make the game faster, albeit less "technical".

I could see people being dangerously fast as fox since auto L cancels.

I guess that's the problem, and it's probably why Sakurai won't do that. If anything, he might give sluggish characters like Ganondorf and Bowser auto-L cancels (ie, just much less landing lag), but leave Fox and the other quick characters alone.

Which is kind of a bummer! L canceling may be pointless (I really disagree with that), but having it in the game makes that sort of stuff much more acceptable. It's fine for Fox to be really fast when he's L-cancelling - it's less fine for Fox to be really fast just because. And since Sakurai probably won't balance the game that way, we're most likely going to end up in an odd middle ground where characters don't feel as fast as they ought to be, for no real reason other than not wanting to make the game more technical.

That said, I basically don't care about Smash 4 at all, so I'm probably a bad person to weigh in on this. =) PM is the only Smash I ever need at this point, haha.

 

[Saito]

That said, I basically don't care about Smash 4 at all

You're an evil man.

 

[LeeYawshee]

So just so everybody knows, Project M has been mentioned a lot to Nintendo, I'm pretty sure they are well aware of it's existence and have been for a while now especially since the release of 3.0 and all of the big sites talking about how it's better than a release from Nintendo (which I agree completely with btw). I think they're smart enough to keep it since I'm pretty sure that wii sales + Brawl sales have gone up quite a bit. How do I know this? Well Brawl was sold out at the nearest gamestop (Which is a few miles away but still).

And Sakurai never once stated he hated the competitive scene but he doesn't like the idea of people bragging about how they're really really good at Smash Bros. (What was intended to be a party game). Sakurai never said he hated Melee and said he actually liked all of his Smash Bros games and that he was proud of each and one of them.

Anyways, from a casual standpoint, I will love SSB4 more than PM. And why the hell can't we move on from the older advance techs? Why can't we wait for the game to come out and give us new techs to experiment with, new fun stuff to find, all sorts of great stuff to enjoy. It's too early to say that SSB4 won't be as competitive as Melee.

Although if I'm real, no Smash Bros will ever be as competitive as PM. But Melee? We can all admit that it was a tad unbalanced as well with most matches containing either Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Captain Falcon.

 

[210stuna]

Project: M will always be the best for me, because I can put my own music, my own stages, my own character textures, everything can be customized. Not to mention to be the most balanced off the bat.*

I know there's probably some hacking in Melee and 64, but Brawl/P:M no doubt is the most grand.
I'll have to wait for who knows how long until Smash 4 is like that, and I don't even plan on getting a WiiU.

I'm not here to bash Smash 4, I will take it at face value and rate it as a stand alone title and enjoy playing it on my 3DS.

*I myself have created nothing, but compiled others works together for my own taste

 

[Caryslan]

We have Mewtwo & Roy

They have Megaman & Wii Fit Trainer

You make the right choice

As much as I like Roy and Mewtwo, I will always take Megaman above both of them

Wii Fit Trainer on the other hand, I would be willing to trade for Roy and Mewtwo.

 

[Ginge]

As much as I like Roy and Mewtwo, I will always take Megaman above both of them

Wii Fit Trainer on the other hand, I would be willing to trade for Roy and Mewtwo.

The best thing that came from Wii Fit Trainer being announced to be in Smash 4 was her intro video.

 

[LeeYawshee]

The best thing that came from Wii Fit Trainer being announced to be in Smash 4 was her intro video.

How about a completely unique character that left everyone's with their jaw dropped.


I absolutely love Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

How about a completely unique character that left everyone's with their jaw dropped.

Who would he be cloned off of if he`s/she`s a 100% unique character with unique abilities?

 

[Ginge]

How about a completely unique character that left everyone's with their jaw dropped.


I absolutely love Wii Fit Trainer.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was against Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion. Just that I REALLY enjoyed her intro video. I'm all for trying her out :D

 

[LeeYawshee]

Who would he be cloned off of if he`s/she`s a 100% unique character with unique abilities?

I meant she was that character.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I meant she was that character.

But she isn`t unique, she was in Wii Fit for the Wii.

 

[LeeYawshee]

But she isn`t unique, she was in Wii Fit for the Wii.

She's unique because she's different than most of the characters...

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

She's unique because she's different than most of the characters...

Oh, I thought you were saying she was an original character specific to the smash series.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes, but do you really expect Sakurai to go "Hmmm, the competitive crowd that I have already expressed hate towards might not like this game. I better add in autol-cancel!"

That's a matter of lag at the end of aerials rather than lack of Lcancels.

Which is kind of a bummer! L canceling may be pointless (I really disagree with that), but having it in the game makes that sort of stuff much more acceptable. It's fine for Fox to be really fast when he's L-cancelling - it's less fine for Fox to be really fast just because. And since Sakurai probably won't balance the game that way, we're most likely going to end up in an odd middle ground where characters don't feel as fast as they ought to be, for no real reason other than not wanting to make the game more technical.

If a player can Lcancel consistently, whats the difference?

Tech barrier is irrelevant to a character's power. Someone will learn it if it is humanly possible.

 

[Chzrm3]

If a player can Lcancel consistently, whats the difference?

Tech barrier is irrelevant to a character's power. Someone will learn it if it is humanly possible.

Are you saying this in regards to L-canceling existing as a mechanic? I actually really like it because I think it serves as a 'gateway tech' for players getting into competitive smash. Getting to a point where you can L-cancel consistently takes time and practice, and once you've practiced you're rewarded with a faster character. It's one of the clearest, most tangible rewards you can ask for. Other techs, like the infamous wavedash, are actually pretty difficult to use correctly, but the reward for the L-cancel is very clear. It's a very satisfying thing to see someone's face light up when you show them that, and they watch how much faster Bowser and Ganondorf suddenly are.

It might be a meaningless distinction to top players (although every now and then in high-stakes matches, you'll see someone get crunched and the announcers will go "OOO, I think he missed that L-cancel somehow"). But for players at lower levels of skill, it's actually a really important first step to them getting into the advanced techs the game offers.

That's why I wish Sakurai would keep it. I don't think it hurts anything, and removing it without any compensation is worse yet - I think we can both agree it'd be much better to have a reduction in landing lag across the board than just have nothing at all. But I honestly think that having the L-cancel stay in the game is valuable for reasons beyond its difficulty as a technique.

If you meant something else, my bad - I'm a putz so I just didn't know what you were referring to. : P I like your font color though, that's a pretty one and I've never seen it used for talkin' before.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Are you saying this in regards to L-canceling existing as a mechanic? I actually really like it because I think it serves as a 'gateway tech' for players getting into competitive smash. Getting to a point where you can L-cancel consistently takes time and practice, and once you've practiced you're rewarded with a faster character. It's one of the clearest, most tangible rewards you can ask for. Other techs, like the infamous wavedash, are actually pretty difficult to use correctly, but the reward for the L-cancel is very clear. It's a very satisfying thing to see someone's face light up when you show them that, and they watch how much faster Bowser and Ganondorf suddenly are.

It might be a meaningless distinction to top players (although every now and then in high-stakes matches, you'll see someone get crunched and the announcers will go "OOO, I think he missed that L-cancel somehow"). But for players at lower levels of skill, it's actually a really important first step to them getting into the advanced techs the game offers.

That's why I wish Sakurai would keep it. I don't think it hurts anything, and removing it without any compensation is worse yet - I think we can both agree it'd be much better to have a reduction in landing lag across the board than just have nothing at all. But I honestly think that having the L-cancel stay in the game is valuable for reasons beyond its difficulty as a technique.

If you meant something else, my bad - I'm a putz so I just didn't know what you were referring to. : P I like your font color though, that's a pretty one and I've never seen it used for talkin' before.

Nah you got it right.

This is honestly the only argument I think works for justifying it. It does have a point it does show who is better at being technical. This is good, but I disagree still.

I feel like you can add technical barriers but ones that can add gameplay and strategic gameplay like wavedashing, L-Canceling really doesn't add this. There isn't any depth to it gameplay wise, it's use it to ask, "do you want more or less lag?"

I get this point though, and it does have merit. But I think it's not needed and you can add technical depth without needing to add things like L-canceling instead of other things that can add more to a game.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Smash 4 now has Rosalina which I'm not sure about it's unexpected,but It does have a Galaxy stage.


Mewtwo and Roy are awesome though.