I think I know what's the real issue people are having.

[Big-Cat]

Dat clickbait title.

So after my big rant and posting my two cents in the rolls thread, I've done some more thinking on the issues people have with the game. I played some For Glory last night and it was rather clear. People try way too hard to be aggressive. A friend of mine pointed out the other day that since I had the life/stock lead there is virtually no reason for me to approach.

I was playing some For Glory last night, and I took my friend's remark into consideration. Once I had the lead, I would either stand and wait (as the opponent was coming anyway), or I forced approaches by baiting whiffs and limiting my opponent's stage control. Doing this, most of the people I played were a bunch of jokahs. Normally, I would try to continue the offense as I was at the advantage, but this would come with mixed results sometimes. When I tried this different approach, results were more consistent and my losses were simply because I was outplayed (a "legit" loss).

So for those complaining about the lack of offense, you don't need to be offensive all the time. You gotta let it come to you sometimes. If they're rolling away and you have the lead, let them run away. Sure, it's not flashy, but you have to play too win, even if that means running the timer out.

So again, don't go rushing in if you're already winning.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm inclined to agree. 'Course, Pit has one of the best projectiles in the game, so naturally I'd want to keep people away.

 

[Raijinken]

A very good approach when it comes to For Glory. Though mileage will vary in other settings.

 

[Big-Cat]

Like I said, this was done in For Glory. It does still point out that the issue may not be the game but the players.

 

[Raijinken]

Like I said, this was done in For Glory. It does still point out that the issue may not be the game but the players.

Absolutely.

I guess it can be hard to adapt to defense being an equal and opposite valid option when many people spent the majority of their time in games where defense is suicide. There's a time and place for everything.

So don't ride bikes indoors or Professor Oak will hunt you down.

 

[Zarxrax]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ass.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ass. If a fighting game does not promote ass kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

 

[LancerStaff]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ***.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ***. If a fighting game does not promote *** kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

If you want a game about rushing in and beating up stuff, play a beat 'em up. Most fighting games have offensive and defensive characters, and the game is balanced for each.

 

[Big-Cat]

Who said you had to do nothing?

 

[Steam]

people who say this game is as defensive as brawl are just wrong. neutral game takes a little patience but once someone has a little momentum you can play REALLY aggressive. it's just not like melee where a large chunk of the roster can just SH nair in all the time.

 

[Vkrm]

people who say this game is as defensive as brawl are just wrong. neutral game takes a little patience but once someone has a little momentum you can play REALLY aggressive. it's just not like melee where a large chunk of the roster can just SH nair in all the time.

Well according to op, rolls are more manageable when you camp harder/abuse the lead.

If you want a game about rushing in and beating up stuff, play a beat 'em up. Most fighting games have offensive and defensive characters, and the game is balanced for each.

Word. If you want melee go play melee with the rest of your elitist fox mains. Instead of discussing why safe rolls are detrimental to the meta, GTFO.

 

[ProjectAngel]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ***.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ***. If a fighting game does not promote *** kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

Sometimes a fighting game requires you to find out HOW to kick said guy's ass.

 

[Big-Cat]

Word. If you want melee go play melee with the rest of your elitist fox mains. Instead of discussing why safe rolls are detrimental to the meta, GTFO.

Act like that in here one more time and I'm reporting you.

 

[Vkrm]

Act like that in here one more time and I'm reporting you.

Threaten to report me one more time and I'll cook you a delicious breakfast.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well according to op, rolls are more manageable when you camp harder/abuse the lead.


Word. If you want melee go play melee with the rest of your elitist fox mains. Instead of discussing why safe rolls are detrimental to the meta, GTFO.

You're not fooling anybody... Just making Melee players look like trash. Unless that's your intention, leave. And learn how to punish noob moves while you're at it.

 

[Gandolftheman]

Threaten to report me one more time and I'll cook you a delicious breakfast.

I like this response.

 

[TL?]

I think I've found the real issue OP is having. He cares way too much what other people think of the game he likes. Not everyone will or should like smash 4. It's perfectly fine if people prefer a game tailored more towards offense. It's also fine to like smash 4. You don't need to justify your choice to anyone. Just play the game that you find to be fun. These ultra defensive posts accomplish nothing. The defense here doesn't even make sense:

So for those complaining about the lack of offense, you don't need to be offensive all the time.

Basically your response to people wanting more offense is to be less offensive lol. Sure, it's good advice for winning in this game. But you're essentially asking people to change their preferences in games. Some people want games more geared towards offense. This is not one of those games, as even you have pointed out. Not everyone has to be a smash 4 player. There will be plenty of people to play smash 4 with despite some people not liking the game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ***.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ***. If a fighting game does not promote *** kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

Playing defensively =/= not doing anything. Defense requires just as much thought and planning as offense does.

 

[GeZ]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ***.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ***. If a fighting game does not promote *** kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

This is sort of true and sort of not. What you're calling just sitting their is the part where a lot of fundamentals come into play in other fighting games, but Smash as a series doesn't have the same depth for that necessarily to factor in, though it exists in Melee more than in any of the others.

If you think that any fighting game that doesn't only support aggression then you've got a very small, very specific pool of fighting games.

I personally don't like Smash 4 compared to Melee or P:M or most other fighting games, because I think it has some objective short comings, and secessions to design, but I'll still play it.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I don't think it's even that, I think there's a problem with out easy it is to escape. Shields and rolls grant way too much defense and safety. The other day I got my ass kicked by a Samus who would roll away > tether grab (that range is just ridiculous) > throw > roll away > repeat. Similar thing happened against a Ganondorf. I wasn't able to grab either one of them, and catching them in their rolls was also extremely difficult because they would always be retreating. How the hell am I supposed to react in situations like this where my opponent is shielded more of the time than they're just standing there? The problem is how good the rolls are, if anything gets nerfed, it needs to be the shielding mechanics.

 

[FoxMcClown]

While i personally enjoy smash 4, because it unbroken captain falcon from how ****ty he was in brawl. There is things to be said, shields are too safe now, dodge and rolls are a little too good. I still play the game and have fun. The problem is that punishing people rolling is harder then it ever was. Punishing people that hits your shield or that you dodge are too easy. Like you can literally do nothing wrong if you play passive. You let them hit your shield, you got a free hit no matter who it is. You dodge, you are free to punish. So this means you have to be passive.

I play captain falcon, this is is literally boring sometimes, but playable. His ground game is already weak, so literally all i have to do is play passive, get one shield hit or dodge one attack. Dash grab, dash smack, fast dair in the ground to send them flying, get a few hits. Get back into passive mode until they try anything again. Getting a few grabs in while we both roll and dash around like monkies.

Now add the lag online and its even more ridiculous, you hit someone shield/get dodged, you are done. The delay on stuff is even more prononced. It doesent require that much changes, just a little notch on everything, like 1-3 frames changes could be a big deal here. Reduce landing lag just a tiny bit for everyone, reduce the speed at which you can attack when your shield is hit by a super tiny bit, reduce recovery speed on roll by like 1-2 frames, give everyone a super small buff on hit stuns. Just so everyone can combo a bit more frequently. It can be like next to nothing, one frame. Just so not everything can be instant dashed. On paper 1 frames changes on all of these dont look like much, but its huge. It just means playing always passive wont always pay off and playing aggressive wont always be a mistake.

I still love the game, i just think its close to its potential, it just need so little change. Hell it could help reduce the diddy dominance, hes the one which those super easy defensive plays help the most, while he juggles you around with his banana. It could stop the diddy nerf bandwagon all on its own, just because people wouldnt feel the only character that can do no wrong when hes not passive is diddy.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Word. If you want melee go play melee with the rest of your elitist fox mains. Instead of discussing why safe rolls are detrimental to the meta, GTFO.

Why is "Go play Melee" always the go-to reply any time anyone dares say they want aggression? Nobody but you even mentioned Melee here, that has nothing to do with it. Makes about as much sense as saying "Oh if you like defense go play Brawl!" See how stupid that sounds?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^Think you missed Poe's Law, he's heading it off the pass.

 

[T0MMY]

When I teach people how to play I have never seen anyone improve more than when I teach them how to be "aggressive" without attacking. Suddenly their whole aggro playstyle becomes a deeper strategy.

 

[Machii]

I am going to say that you cannot treat FOR GLORY as a serious competitive field of Smash. The reason is input lag. Smash 4 is so balanced that a fraction of a second can be the deciding factor in chaining into an air combo. With that said so many characters are just not close to viable in this online mode where input lag is a constant, however minor. I nearly gave up playing nothing but online matches the first couple weeks of release. Going from FOR GLORY online matches to local matches was like transitioning from BRAWL into MELEE. After playing local matches it has revitalized my perspective on the game.

 

[Raijinken]

I am going to say that you cannot treat FOR GLORY as a serious competitive field of Smash. The reason is input lag. Smash 4 is so balanced that a fraction of a second can be the deciding factor in chaining into an air combo. With that said so many characters are just not close to viable in this online mode where input lag is a constant however minor.

This is true, but the principle extends to other modes as well. If you have nothing to gain by being aggressive, then you really should stop being aggressive and wait. Whereas if you have everything to lose by being passive, you need to get out there and be aggressive. It's a matter of choosing the correct style for the situation, not choosing just your favorite style and complaining that it isn't a cure-all.

 

[Piford]

In For Glory, actually the person winning is forced to approach since the loser can wait till sudden death so they are back on an even percents.

 

[Raijinken]

In For Glory, actually the person winning is forced to approach since the loser can wait till sudden death so they are back on an even percents.

Only if the stocks are tied, though. Once you take a stock lead, that no longer applies.

For that matter, any tournament that allows the match to go to sudden death is subject to the same stipulations. That's why most of them outright rule that percent advantage counts as a win when stocks are tied.

 

[Piford]

Only if the stocks are tied, though. Once you take a stock lead, that no longer applies.

For that matter, any tournament that allows the match to go to sudden death is subject to the same stipulations. That's why most of them outright rule that percent advantage counts as a win when stocks are tied.

Yeah I guess I forgot about the stock difference. Also people on for glory are impatient and you can generally get them to approach you no matter what.

 

[Nobie]

No fight, not even in Melee or Smash 4, is either purely aggressive or defensive, and in the case of Smash 4 It's not like aggression doesn't exist but because there are times when aggression is not such a good idea, other times when aggression is forced at the attacker's expense. If one tries to play those disadvantage positions too aggressively they will lose even further to defensive play, which compounds the idea that the game is too defensive. Basically if you're of the mind that aggression is the only way one should play, and if you lose because of that, even the periods of aggression start to become invisible despite being there.

 

[MuraRengan]

I quit brawl right around the time when time outs started to become a thing. There is literally nothing fun about playing against somebody that's going to do that. But overly defensive play in smash lends itself to that naturally. You're right, a player that has a lead has absolutely no reason to approach, and in a game where defense is significantly stronger than offense, time outs are going to happen.

There's a certain aspect about the competitive meta that people never acknowledge, and it's that the even some of the most competitive players in the game don't actually "play to win". Playing to win means doing literally the strategy that most assures your victory. M2K played like that in Brawl, and that took the form of planking. Planking - literally the worst phenomenon to ever happen to competitive smash. But even still, there were competitive players that didn't plank, even though it was the best strategy. Do you know why? Because that **** isn't fun. Playing to win means always picking the top tier character, but do you know why people don't always do that? Because that **** isn't fun. Most people still want to have fun, even competitive players. Mango is the perfect example of this. He is the best, hands down. He has shown that he can play using the best characters and best strategies, but he prioritizes actually having fun over winning. That's why he beats people in Melee with ****ing Mario. The motivating force that makes people want to play this game is not a competitive urge to win, it is fun. That's why I hate when people use "play to win" as their ultimate retort to complaints about the meta. Of course people want to win, but people want to have fun even more. I quit Brawl because winning wasn't fun, and I will quit Smash 4 if winning isn't fun. And if you're going to ascribe the "play to win" mentality to the Smash 4 meta, it's beginning to look like we're going to be seeing more time outs. Because once you get a stock lead in this game, all you have to do is keep your opponent away, and keeping your opponent away is easy when the defensive options are significantly better than your offensive options. Just tack on that % until even if they do manage to kill you, they'll never catch up in % in time for it to make a difference. If the meta turns into that I'm not going to play.

 

[RESET Vao]

Steam, stop making posts I agree with. Cheers.

If you wanna learn about patience, neutral and not approaching when you don't need to - play a bit of this guy.

 

[Utena]

i had a stock lead vs little mac as ganon so i waited on the edge of the stage for him to approach and i got disconnected for idling


anyways i love planking and trying to time people out and i still hate this game

 

[RanserSSF4]

Uh... I think everyone knows what you finally figured out. We KNOW that you have to play defensively. And that's precisely what people don't like.
It's not fun to sit there and be patient and not do anything. What's fun is getting out there and kicking some ***.
It's a fighting game after all, the objective is to kick the other guy's ***. If a fighting game does not promote *** kicking, then something is wrong, in my opinion.

I made a thread months ago and i mentioned that having defensive options isn't bad thing, but most of the community believes defensive options shouldn't be in smash. Your comment is an example of that. True, defensive play isn't enjoyable most of the time, but there's nothing wrong with having defensive options.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i had a stock lead vs little mac as ganon so i waited on the edge of the stage for him to approach and i got disconnected for idling


anyways i love planking and trying to time people out and i still hate this game

if you hate smash 4, why are you still here, commenting on smash 4 posts?

 

[Morbi]

if you hate smash 4, why are you still here, commenting on smash 4 posts?

One can "hate" the game yet still retain an interest in the game. It is certainly not unheard of as far as I am aware.

 

[RanserSSF4]

While i personally enjoy smash 4, because it unbroken captain falcon from how ****ty he was in brawl. There is things to be said, shields are too safe now, dodge and rolls are a little too good. I still play the game and have fun. The problem is that punishing people rolling is harder then it ever was. Punishing people that hits your shield or that you dodge are too easy. Like you can literally do nothing wrong if you play passive. You let them hit your shield, you got a free hit no matter who it is. You dodge, you are free to punish. So this means you have to be passive.

I play captain falcon, this is is literally boring sometimes, but playable. His ground game is already weak, so literally all i have to do is play passive, get one shield hit or dodge one attack. Dash grab, dash smack, fast dair in the ground to send them flying, get a few hits. Get back into passive mode until they try anything again. Getting a few grabs in while we both roll and dash around like monkies.

Now add the lag online and its even more ridiculous, you hit someone shield/get dodged, you are done. The delay on stuff is even more prononced. It doesent require that much changes, just a little notch on everything, like 1-3 frames changes could be a big deal here. Reduce landing lag just a tiny bit for everyone, reduce the speed at which you can attack when your shield is hit by a super tiny bit, reduce recovery speed on roll by like 1-2 frames, give everyone a super small buff on hit stuns. Just so everyone can combo a bit more frequently. It can be like next to nothing, one frame. Just so not everything can be instant dashed. On paper 1 frames changes on all of these dont look like much, but its huge. It just means playing always passive wont always pay off and playing aggressive wont always be a mistake.

I still love the game, i just think its close to its potential, it just need so little change. Hell it could help reduce the diddy dominance, hes the one which those super easy defensive plays help the most, while he juggles you around with his banana. It could stop the diddy nerf bandwagon all on its own, just because people wouldnt feel the only character that can do no wrong when hes not passive is diddy.

i agree. i love smash 4 and enjoy playing it, but it needs some more tweaks to make it better.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i play captain falcon, and i go aggressive, and it definitly works, but from what I've learned, it's all MU based. If i'm playing a bad MU for C.falcon (Rosaluma, Diddy, or Greninja), i have to play patiently while still pressuring and using my aggro-playstyle. If it's a good MU for C.falcon, i can go all aggressive and do mix-ups and win most of the time.

Like you said, if i lost, it's because of either i made a mistake or my opponent outclassed me.

 

[MegaMissingno]

One can "hate" the game yet still retain an interest in the game. It is certainly not unheard of as far as I am aware.

I guess I could say I have sort of a love-hate relationship with this game, and I'm probably not the only one feeling this way. There's some cool stuff I like, especially the newcomers, but there's a number of issues that are so hard to look past and ultimately feel like they ruin everything else.

I like that hitstun is back. I don't like the total lack of shieldstun, and I hate how difficult it is to get in my opponent decides they don't want to engage. I do like Pac-Man and Mega Man. I don't like Diddy Kong and Lucario. I do like that meteors can no longer be canceled and can cause a floor bounce when used above the stage. I don't like how ridiculously good recoveries are, to the point where many characters can still survive meteors. I do like Town and City. I don't like Wuhu Island. I do like how jabs can be useful now. I don't like the rage mechanic. I do like that regrabbing the ledge no longer refreshes invincibility. I don't like that that ledge snap is magnetic and the removal of edgehogging means there's no way to stop it.

I just don't know, man. I want to enjoy this game, but I can't help but find it hard to do so.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I guess I could say I have sort of a love-hate relationship with this game, and I'm probably not the only one feeling this way. There's some cool stuff I like, especially the newcomers, but there's a number of issues that are so hard to look past and ultimately feel like they ruin everything else.

I like that hitstun is back. I don't like the total lack of shieldstun, and I hate how difficult it is to get in my opponent decides they don't want to engage. I do like Pac-Man and Mega Man. I don't like Diddy Kong and Lucario. I do like that meteors can no longer be canceled and can cause a floor bounce when used above the stage. I don't like how ridiculously good recoveries are, to the point where many characters can still survive meteors. I do like Town and City. I don't like Wuhu Island. I do like how jabs can be useful now. I don't like the rage mechanic. I do like that regrabbing the ledge no longer refreshes invincibility. I don't like that that ledge snap is magnetic and the removal of edgehogging means there's no way to stop it.

I just don't know, man. I want to enjoy this game, but I can't help but find it hard to do so.

i do have a similar feeling. i don't hate smash 4. i like it a lot, but my biggest complaint is small shieldstun. by simply adding, lets say 20% extra shieldstun, aggressive play i would instantly be buffed.

 

[Croph]

People try way too hard to be aggressive. A friend of mine pointed out the other day that since I had the life/stock lead there is virtually no reason for me to approach.

I was watching a tourney match a few days ago. One of the players had a stock lead (kinda at high %), but he kept playing aggressively and approached the opponent. It seemed like the opponent knew how to react since he basically KO'd him quickly after. One of the commentators said something like "Why did he do that? He didn't have to approach like that since he had a stock lead". It's unfortunate when stuff like this happens, but you take these experiences and learn from them.

I think there are times when you have to adjust your playstyle depending one the current situation (which can vary from you having the stock lead to how your opponent's pressuring you, etc.). Sometimes it's okay to play defensive, or aggressive, or mix-up. Maybe there's more... perhaps things aren't this black and white. At the very least, I think you need patience and efficiency.

So, for an example on specific situation and coming up with a smart way to deal with it. Let's say you're against a Shulk who's at high % on Shield mode. If you know you cannot KO him, stalling until the Shield duration is over (this is easier to do on a stage with platforms since you can just jump/move across the platforms) is an option. I mean, Shulk's a lard*** in that mode, so you can usually use that against him, why the need to approach?

If they're rolling away and you have the lead, let them run away. Sure, it's not flashy, but you have to play too win, even if that means running the timer out.

Lol, so basically if your opponent is just rolling away and too stubborn to move, counter that with your own stubbornness -- just let the timer run out! Or, if you think that's not fun, force your opponent to make an action. Of course, this will make the opponent approach you either way, but hopefully when that happens you know how to react.

Do you see a lot of people in For Glory play aggressively and never change? I'm kinda out of the loop since I haven't played For Glory in a while. I don't really know why if that's the case. Maybe people are afraid to try new approaches (even if the current one isn't working out). Or maybe they just don't really know how. A lot of it comes with general experience too.

Edit: If it's true though, thinking about it... y'know, Smash isn't the only game where new/inexperienced/and whatever players want to constantly play aggressive (like, always in your face, mashing random attack/buttons, etc., even if it's not working out) and not change strategies. I see this in a lot of other video games, especially online since there's rankings. I'm inclined to think that it's a natural human instinct to play super aggressive, especially in a competitive video game environment