I really fall for the stupidest crap sometimes. (Gimping)

[Rango the Mercenary]

Was taking on a Pit and Greninja player at a tournament yesterday. First round, he kills me with foot-stool. Second round I win, and third round, he pulls out Greninja. I'm bodying his Greninja and I'm only a Smash or two away. He finally gets me to my last stock, and around 30% or so, he knocks me off the edge and Bairs me to death. Like, not even just gimping, but red lightning streak into a kill just by edgeguarding me so far off stage. And keep in mind he was taking a LOT of punishment.

For friendlies after the tournament, I faced a Captain Falcon who placed Top 5 out of the 67 that were there. In both sets, he bair-spiked me into the stage for an early kill.

I have serious problems recovering with Ike. I'm slowly learning to not use my double jump immediately into Side B, That's part of what's gotten me killed by Rosalinas in the past, as well as the Greninja player last night. But it's hard to evade someone in the air when they come after you for the gimping kill. The CF player just simply took me off stage with a few quick attacks, and as I went for Aether, landed with Bair to kill me as he read my recovery.

What are my options for getting back on-stage without risking getting killed early?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Air dodge and counter. In my opinion, reading how someone reacts in the air is one of the (if not the) easiest thing to pick up on. Is the player actively going in for attacks without hesitation, or do they try and bait the air-dodge, or do they just stay back and wait for you to return? This game is all about the reads. Being an Ike player, you have to adapt to each play style and find a way to counter it. He has a lot of options, you have to experiment. Ike's Nair and Fair have a lot of priority (and Fair is reasonably fast), so when returning, don't be shy when trying to go in for the attack. His sword eats up projectiles so it's a great alternative to air-dodging. On top of this, people don't really expect to be attacked when they're pursuing you off stage. You could also use Ike's counter, it's a REALLY risky move (hence the reason I avoid it), but if you can read the opponent and figure out when to use it, it'll pay off. And of course, my favorite: air-dodging. Seriously, I think I beat the majority of my opponents because they fail to understand how to properly air dodge (and if they know how, I generally wait it out then punish with a delayed Uair).

Another tactic I've been experimenting with lately is using Quick Draw well above the ledge (at the autocanceling height). Instead of going to the ledge and then finding a way back on stage, I just go right over the opponent's head. It sounds stupid and easily punishable (and it is), but people don't expect this, so they aren't prepared to punish it making it a much better option then you would think. Quick Draw is notorious for having a lot of end lag, which is why it's so good at surprising other players when you manage to get the autocancel then go into a Bair, pivoted Ftilt or even a sliding Fsmash/Usmash. The transition into all of these are amazingly fast and hard to punish.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Interesting. Another thing I have a problem with doing is landing. Air-dodging to a land leaves you completely vulnerable - exactly what someone wants when they USmash you. Mario's USmash has a huge hitbox, so going for Nair and Dair is suicidal. So if someone is tracking you while you land and you can't make it to the edge, and Counter is feeling risky, what do you generally go for?

 

[Zatchiel]

Just be more patient offstage. I basically always conserve my second jump unless I spy an opportunity to jump -> quickdraw over or under them. Depending on how close you are to the stage, if your opponent chases you off then jump and/or FF airdodge -> Aether is virtually unpunishable by most of the cast from my experience. Ike's fastfall is awesome, and most characters will be risking suicide if they fast fall with you and attempt to kill you (those that can; most will not be able to make it to you before Aether is out). Also remember that you can fast fall while tumbling. Use that to your advantage as well, you don't have to jump out of the tumble to do anything Ike can do in the air. I use this to fake out my opponents a lot that are expecting a double jump early on.

I very rarely counter offstage, even if I have my second jump still it does seem a bit risky since patient players will be waiting for an airdodge. Just be wary of that.

If I'm challenging them with an aerial (which I don't usually do unless they are at mid/high percents) then I opt for f-air, u-air, or d-air. D-air isn't as great as it used to be because it doesn't have those lingering hitbox frames (as well as the range beneath Ike) but it's still pretty good combined with a fastfall and can feasibly turn the tables on an edgeguarding opponent if it sends them behind you or spikes them. I suppose if you airdodge early enough to avoid an attack and they are inside of or behind you then b-air is an awesome punishment option. I wouldn't go for that often though.

If your opponent is anywhere near you before or even after you start Aether below the stage, always be ready to tech. Ike is completely exposed from behind before starting the move and during his jump to catch his sword (there are also character specific ledgeguarding tactics to watch out for but I think you recognize those already).

Interesting. Another thing I have a problem with doing is landing. Air-dodging to a land leaves you completely vulnerable - exactly what someone wants when they USmash you. Mario's USmash has a huge hitbox, so going for Nair and Dair is suicidal. So if someone is tracking you while you land and you can't make it to the edge, and Counter is feeling risky, what do you generally go for?

I try to never airdodge into the ground unless I see my opponent committing to an aerial chase. Fast fall airdodge will usually get me right past them and to the ground before they can make it down to punish my airdodge landing lag. What I mostly do is stay in tumble and fast fall into a tech/tech roll. If I don't feel like that's safe when the opponent is chasing me then I use my second jump and usually fast fall (either emptily or with an aerial).

Another thing I go for is quickdraw, but that's a lot less safe. I tend to do that if I had momentum going and they broke out of my chase with their own attack. It can interrupt their momentum before it gets the chance to start, basically. But if they are reacting with shields mainly then I don't choose to do this most of the time, I favor my tech opportunities instead.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I am using air hop a lot while I tumble, and it's usually right after I get launched. What a bad habit.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't be afraid to fast fall off stage to get out of a string as long as you still have your second jump. Ike in general doesn't have good anti-juggling/gimping options, you gotta really be smart with the few tools he has for those situations.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Here's exactly what I'm talking about. Granted, I made the mistake of using my double jump early, but it's a habit I'm quickly learning to break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m_2X2zCUNw

Oh, and so you don't spite me for how badly I played...

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Yeah that first instance that you went off the edge, I dunno what you were thinking. Jumping back onto the ledge from below like that is one of the riskiest moves you can pull in this game (and worse over, there isn't much you can do if you aren't punished). Based on what I've noticed, Ike's got a pretty solid ledge game, so don't be afraid to grab onto it from time to time.

 

[SaintJotun]

Another tactic I've been experimenting with lately is using Quick Draw well above the ledge (at the autocanceling height). Instead of going to the ledge and then finding a way back on stage, I just go right over the opponent's head. It sounds stupid and easily punishable (and it is), but people don't expect this, so they aren't prepared to punish it making it a much better option then you would think. Quick Draw is notorious for having a lot of end lag, which is why it's so good at surprising other players when you manage to get the autocancel then go into a Bair, pivoted Ftilt or even a sliding Fsmash/Usmash. The transition into all of these are amazingly fast and hard to punish.

This! I also have been recently experimenting with Quick Draw at higher altitudes. It doesn't take long to charge enough to throw you across the map (over or under an aggressive opponent) and catch the autocancel. I've maybe been doing it too much. After some practice, you'll be able to know at a glance if your opponent will even stand a chance to catch you (extra consideration against high speed characters). Once the opponent thinks they have you figured out, some will launch you, and then sprint to the far side of the map in an attempt to catch your Quick Draw recover, and then you just go in traditionally, ledge, or even a shorter Quick Draw. It seems after a couple failed chases, the opponent will usually settle for waiting in the middle of the map, which is fine with me. I've only seen a couple switch to an overly aggressive chase off level, which you can deal with as you please (f-air is usually a good choice for me).